Q logic/Curtis Cable end

[Burgerman]

You are going to need another person to help, that has some knowledge and a good multimeter. It is going to need some deductive powers. And you will find out what is wrong by careful testing. But judging by your questions and obvious unfamiliarity I suspect you will need a dealer to investigate it.

I would get my carer to take off actuators etc and test/measure them on my bench (my bed!). And do the same with position sensors, motors, etc. And be sure they were positioned correctly. And check cables by multimeter and by substitution. And after that change actuator module to see if that was the issue. If needed I would test the whole system all together on the bench, and try to figure out where the issue is. Including looking for faults on loom, motors, freewheel, brake, and error messages in the programming.

[laoshanren]

You are going to need another person to help, that has some knowledge and a good multimeter. It is going to need some deductive powers. And you will find out what is wrong by careful testing. But judging by your questions and obvious unfamiliarity I suspect you will need a dealer to investigate it.

I would get my carer to take off actuators etc and test/measure them on my bench (my bed!). And do the same with position sensors, motors, etc. And be sure they were positioned correctly. And check cables by multimeter and by substitution. And after that change actuator module to see if that was the issue. If needed I would test the whole system all together on the bench, and try to figure out where the issue is. Including looking for faults on loom, motors, freewheel, brake, and error messages in the programming.

Hi Burgerman thanks

I did call the dealer and they ref, me a technician and who want to make me appointment next and next.
Some body tell me if I do program can solve this problem, my USB - CAN is on the way.
Now I opened the power module, can you take a look if any sensor in there?
Can I just take out the small battery?
Best
Adam

[LROBBINS]

The position sensor(s) is (are) somewhere, almost anywhere, on the seat assembly, not IN any of the modules. Sensor(s) will be connected to one of the modules (probably the AAM) by a cable. If you have a bad component, no amount of programming will fix it, but you may be able to program the chair to IGNORE the inhibit.

[Burgerman]

Do not remove battery! It keeps memory alive maybe, but could just be clock. No idea. But it wont help. You cant just randomly assume a module if bad, and its unlikely to be that anyway.

[laoshanren]

The position sensor(s) is (are) somewhere, almost anywhere, on the seat assembly, not IN any of the modules. Sensor(s) will be connected to one of the modules (probably the AAM) by a cable. If you have a bad component, no amount of programming will fix it, but you may be able to program the chair to IGNORE the inhibit.

Hi LROBBINS thanks

I didn't find any sensor and cable.
possibly the program calculate the linear actuator running time to get the position?
'IGNORE' is good idea.

Best
Adam

[laoshanren]

Do not remove battery! It keeps memory alive maybe, but could just be clock. No idea. But it wont help. You cant just randomly assume a module if bad, and its unlikely to be that anyway.

Hi Burgerman thanks

can you guess what can be the reason, when I do the back tilt and recline , why the joystick only works one way, forward ok , nothing happened backward.

Best
Adam

[LROBBINS]

I'll take a stab at that last question. The most common way that end-of-travel switches work is that there's one for extended limit and one for retracted limit. They are normally closed and when pressed by a cam on the actuator the contacts open. Each one has a diode in parallel with the switch, however, so that even though the circuit is interrupted in one direction, it is bypassed in the other direction. So, for example, if the "extend" limit switch is pressed, it will not allow any more current to flow in the extend sense, but the diode will let current pass in the retract sense. If a diode has failed so that it no longer conducts, if you reach that limit you can't go back. Is that what your chair does? If it is, there's probably a bad diode. Oftentimes the switches and diodes are actually inside the actuator, so can be a bit of a pain to repair - but it can be done.

I very much doubt that the controller uses time to infer position. If the actuator has an encoder, it can count pulses of the encoder to know position, but then there'd still be wires connecting it to the control module. I've never seen this on a chair, but it's also possible to have position sensors inside the actuator. I think that there was also at least one chair that used a potentiometer that was moved by the seat to give position information. In any case, a thing to check is how many wires are in the cable that connects the actuator to the electronics. If there are more than two wires, there's something more than just a motor (and possibly internal limit switches) inside the actuator.

[laoshanren]

I'll take a stab at that last question. The most common way that end-of-travel switches work is that there's one for extended limit and one for retracted limit. They are normally closed and when pressed by a cam on the actuator the contacts open. Each one has a diode in parallel with the switch, however, so that even though the circuit is interrupted in one direction, it is bypassed in the other direction. So, for example, if the "extend" limit switch is pressed, it will not allow any more current to flow in the extend sense, but the diode will let current pass in the retract sense. If a diode has failed so that it no longer conducts, if you reach that limit you can't go back. Is that what your chair does? If it is, there's probably a bad diode. Oftentimes the switches and diodes are actually inside the actuator, so can be a bit of a pain to repair - but it can be done.

I very much doubt that the controller uses time to infer position. If the actuator has an encoder, it can count pulses of the encoder to know position, but then there'd still be wires connecting it to the control module. I've never seen this on a chair, but it's also possible to have position sensors inside the actuator. I think that there was also at least one chair that used a potentiometer that was moved by the seat to give position information. In any case, a thing to check is how many wires are in the cable that connects the actuator to the electronics. If there are more than two wires, there's something more than just a motor (and possibly internal limit switches) inside the actuator.

Hi LROBBINS thanks

This make sense. actually　Burgerman　mentioned that on Oct. 24.

I guess the reason to result this status is because I disconnected the cables when the chair sit in a tilt position, because I have disassembly it to unload from my trunk, at least my second chair should be.

Best
Adam

[laoshanren]

This post is purely to help anyone searching the forum..

Q-Logic and Curtis discussion has moved threads.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1965&start=100#p26123

For those that want a mobility scooter serial interface ....

KPG4 OK.JPG

Hi woodygb thanks,
May I take a shortcut, I made a connector like the picture:
1. whats the other end should do, soldering to a USB? or need use the IC1 MAX 232?
2. what software should I use? or any thing else ?

Best
Adam

All you need is one of these ..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-CAN-USB-to- ... 0899053368
AND the DLL from this link.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2757&start=340#p73389

FOLLOW THIS GUIDE.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2757

NOTE THAT THERE APPEARS TO BE 2 TYPES OF THIS CAN

Some info for you here on the newer USB-CAN...
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2757&start=340#p73334

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2757&start=360#p87375


Cheers Woody

Hi woodygb thanks

I have ordered the USB-CAN, still on the way.
I found a piece of USB - TTL, can I use it instead?

https://www.amazon.ca/USB-UART-Module-S ... ttl+module

Best
Adam

[laoshanren]

There are two connectors go to motor, the large one can be main power, but why 4 conducts? the small connector should be for the brake?
Thanks for help.
Adam

[LROBBINS]

Yes. Two larger wires = motor, two smaller wires = parking brake.

[laoshanren]

Yes. Two larger wires = motor, two smaller wires = parking brake.

Hi LROBBINS thanks
There are two connector all go to motor, the large connector has 4 conducts [2 big ] / [2 small], do you mean the [2 big ] for motor, and the [2 small] for brake?

What the small connector for then?

Best
Adam

[woodygb]

IMO.

It LOOKS like multiple connections... BUT IT'S NOT... A blade slides between the ( 4 ) contacts.

Each end in your pic is A SINGLE CONNECTION ... the middle is just 2 connections.




http://www.terminalcn.com/products.asp?sortid=2

[laoshanren]

IMO.

It LOOKS like multiple connections... BUT IT'S NOT... A blade slides between the ( 4 ) contacts.

Each end in your pic is A SINGLE CONNECTION ... the middle is just 2 connections.




http://www.terminalcn.com/products.asp?sortid=2

Hi "woodygb thanks,
if right, these can explain the LARGE picture, two ends conducts for motor, and the middle for brake. There is still a SMALL plug goes to motor, I'll attach it again here, do you know what this for?
Best
Adam

[laoshanren]

The attached picture shown the cables connected to motor which I named them LARGE and SMALL total two cables go to each motor. anyone know what the small cable does?

[Burgerman]

Thers 6 possible wires coming from a wheelchair motor.

Always used - two big power wires to drive the motor.
Almost always used - 2 thin wires to release the brake and allow you to drive.
And very occasionaly a shaft encoder, 2 wires or occasionally 3, for an encoder. This tells the controller if the chair is going straight, turning etc. Used on some speciality controls for those that struggle with normal joystick controls. It is a feedback system for the motor/controller.

[laoshanren]

Thers 6 possible wires coming from a wheelchair motor.

Always used - two big power wires to drive the motor.
Almost always used - 2 thin wires to release the brake and allow you to drive.
And very occasionaly a shaft encoder, 2 wires or occasionally 3, for an encoder. This tells the controller if the chair is going straight, turning etc. Used on some speciality controls for those that struggle with normal joystick controls. It is a feedback system for the motor/controller.

Thanks Burgerman,
Few more questions:
1. Is the brake used 24vdc same as motor? and can I control the motor and brake together, I mean use one relay?
2. for my project, I don't need care about the straight moving or not, if I ignore the feedback cable, can the chair keep running with what I operate it?
Best
Adam

[Burgerman]

Brake may be 12 or 24. Dont get it wrong because either way causes damage.

and can I control the motor and brake together, I mean use one relay?

That sentence makes no sense to me!

What do you operate it with?
A powerchair controller and power module normally.

[laoshanren]

Brake may be 12 or 24. Dont get it wrong because either way causes damage.

and can I control the motor and brake together, I mean use one relay?

That sentence makes no sense to me!

What do you operate it with?
A powerchair controller and power module normally.

Hi Burgerman thanks

I mean if I do test the motor separately without the control module, can I just hook the motor and brake together? as I understood the brake power on release, right?
Best
Adam

[Burgerman]

As long as you dont feed the brake 24v and it is a 12v brake, as it will burn out. And as long as you dont feed 12v to a 24v brake as it will will not realease properly and will rear out the friction surfaces fast. You also really should limit current somehow too as the starting current will be 150 to 200A INITIALLY as it begins to turn. Maybe a couple of headlamp bulbs in parallel, and in series with the motor, but not the brake.

[laoshanren]

As long as you dont feed the brake 24v and it is a 12v brake, as it will burn out. And as long as you dont feed 12v to a 24v brake as it will will not realease properly and will rear out the friction surfaces fast. You also really should limit current somehow too as the starting current will be 150 to 200A INITIALLY as it begins to turn. Maybe a couple of headlamp bulbs in parallel, and in series with the motor, but not the brake.

Thanks Burgerman,

I have measured the motor coil, resistance = ~1 Ohm, and the brake coil R ~79 Ohms. this can limit the start current a little?
Do you know is the brake voltage 12v or 24 v?

Best
Adam

[Burgerman]

A wheelchair motor when measured correctly will be far lower than 1 Ohm.
They typically have stall currents LIMITED by the controller to 80 or 120A per motor.

A 1 Ohm motor would draw about 25 amps only if stalled! Unless this is a tiny scooter or folding lightweigt powerchair this is extremely unlikely.

Brake voltage may be marked on the motor. Or measured on the chair, or checked by looking in programming. Or tested. If it realeases fully at around 8V its a 12v brake.

[laoshanren]

A wheelchair motor when measured correctly will be far lower than 1 Ohm.
They typically have stall currents LIMITED by the controller to 80 or 120A per motor.

A 1 Ohm motor would draw about 25 amps only if stalled! Unless this is a tiny scooter or folding lightweigt powerchair this is extremely unlikely.

Brake voltage may be marked on the motor. Or measured on the chair, or checked by looking in programming. Or tested. If it realeases fully at around 8V its a 12v brake.

Thank you Burgerman,

The chair is a Q6 EDGE, You are right, the motor measured is under 1 Ohm, ~0.9?
I made two connectors for the test which fit the connector on motor. I made a relay group of Automotive Relay 12V 24v 100A 5Pin, if the current up to 120 amps, can the relay work?
The good news is I bought my 3rd Q6 EDGE, and it works good in any situations.
The pictures of the connector and relay group attached.

Best
Adam

[LROBBINS]

Accurately measuring resistance values less than 1 ohm is at best difficult and the usual multimeters are not up to the task. Typically, wheelchair motors range from about 50 milliohms to 100 or so, and the worst I've seen was 300 milliohms.

I suspect that your relays will not last long if you directly drive the motors with them. Though rated at 100 Amps, that refers to resistive loads, but motors are inductive loads - there's going to be a lot of arcing, and probably burnt contacts, when the relays open. Or even failure to pen when the contacts fuse. A 100 milliohm motor will have a stall current of 250 Amps and a starting current not much less than that. You should probably arrange things so that current is at most 1/2 of the relay rating, and even then this is not a good way to drive a motor. That's why wheelchair controllers use actively current limited MOSFET bridges to drive the motors.

[laoshanren]

Hi good morning,

Just wonder if any body know where is the tilt sensor for Q6 EDGE chair?

Best
Adam

[rover220]

Hi good morning,

Just wonder if any body know where is the tilt sensor for Q6 EDGE chair?

Best
Adam

Inside the actuator module.

[laoshanren]

This post is purely to help anyone searching the forum..

Q-Logic and Curtis discussion has moved threads.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1965&start=100#p26123

For those that want a mobility scooter serial interface ....

The attachment KPG4 OK.JPG is no longer available

Hi woodygb thanks,
May I take a shortcut, I made a connector like the picture:
1. whats the other end should do, soldering to a USB? or need use the IC1 MAX 232?
2. what software should I use? or any thing else ?

Best
Adam

All you need is one of these ..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-CAN-USB-to- ... 0899053368
AND the DLL from this link.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2757&start=340#p73389

FOLLOW THIS GUIDE.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2757

NOTE THAT THERE APPEARS TO BE 2 TYPES OF THIS CAN

Some info for you here on the newer USB-CAN...
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2757&start=340#p73334

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2757&start=360#p87375


Cheers Woody

Hi woodygb,

Sorry to bother you again.
I just wonder if my understand right: one end of the USB-CAN has two terminals [pic.1], hook up to the two fine conducts on the home made connector [pic.2]. install the 'setup.exe, I be able to start?

Best
Adam'

[woodygb]

Yes.

Assuming that you have the Curtis 1314 PC Program AND the modified LXN4py2s.dll file AND the CORRECT QM_USB.dll AND the mcp.zip .....


viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2757&start=360#p87375

..... and combined these properly as instructed in the guide.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2757

[laoshanren]

Yes.

Assuming that you have the Curtis 1314 PC Program AND the modified LXN4py2s.dll file AND the CORRECT QM_USB.dll AND the mcp.zip .....


viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2757&start=360#p87375

..... and combined these properly as instructed in the guide.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2757

Thanks woodygb.
Please let me Clear my thinking:

1. Curtis 1314 PC Program, is that the 'setup.exe' downloaded from the only download link you posted? is it run at Winxp?
2. the modified LXN4py2s.dll, I have;
3. CORRECT QM_USB.dll --- it that the 'QM_USB' you called 'my dll' ?
4. mcp.zip ---- have.
5. yes, I do need some time to be able to combined these properly, I'll try my best.

i just tried to install the 'setup.exe' in win7, no works.
Best
Adam

[laoshanren]

Yes.

Assuming that you have the Curtis 1314 PC Program AND the modified LXN4py2s.dll file AND the CORRECT QM_USB.dll AND the mcp.zip .....


viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2757&start=360#p87375

..... and combined these properly as instructed in the guide.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2757

Hi woodygb,
update a little is I got the: 1314-PCPS_OEM_4-6-7-467, seems works in win7, is this version ok?

Best
Adam