PGDT Serial interface cable ...USB Alternative :D

[woodygb]

The ESP module appears to sit between the joystick and the controller and comms go thru it ..
It also appears that the ESP is ultimately in control of the chair.

esp2.jpg (102.76 KiB) Viewed 15732 times

[Burgerman]

BM ..What is your bench programming setup?

Joystick plus the controller to be programmed..or...

I connect the module to my powerchairs pod. So I ask for the cable to be sent with the PM. Then power it up with 24v and my bench power supply and a couple of tiny croc clip wires. Set to 25 to 28v Then connect your (or PG) lead.

No need to connect motors, brakes etc. It only needs power.

[brax]

The ESP module appears to sit between the joystick and the controller and comms go thru it ..
It also appears that the ESP is ultimately in control of the chair.

esp2.jpg

No i don't have an esp module. i think it was only available as an option on the c300 if you had an R-Net controller.

sure i don't have one.

brax

[woodygb]

OK...If you haven't then I'll need to think again.


I'm desperately trying to find a valid reason why you can't connect...the presence of an ESP seemed to match the problem.
Read the blurb and it say's Pilot+.

[brax]

I see it does indeed. I don't think i have one installed as i have to continually make course corrections on a grade etc. It says it is connected to the chassis. I will take my chair apart and try to photograph everything. i have tried to find the service manual on permobils website. I found the owners manual under previous versions but no service manual. I will probably wait until i have another cord before i take it apart.
brax

[Allan]

Hi all
this is a nice learning thread and most welcome (i say we need more of it to cut out the DickTurpin's of the Mobility world lol) i have been having a prob for some time now and was at a loss as to what it was have made many posts trying to gain any info possible without any success
i was getting 10 flashes on my dynamics joystick and the chair would move a short distance and cut out so i bit the bullet and sent it to Dynamics and after they checked it apparently the joystick has lost its programing completely and at a cost of £70 + VAT they would re-program it and still dont know how and why it dropped the program?????
Managed to get the Dynamic Wizard for my laptop but not the cable and my question is is it possible to make a cable from an old USB cable? if so does anyone know the schematics for it?

regards
Allan

[woodygb]

Allan,
You will need a lead and Dongle ...buying or borrowing these are the only options.

I suspect that it's possible to clone or emulate the dongle ....Dynamic runs HASP (Hardware Against Software Piracy) ....but the lead and Dongle seem readily available from Dynamic ,IF you can show a level of competence.
http://www.dynamiccontrols.com/mobility ... rogramming

[woodygb]

Brax ...
Another question in the quest to try and ascertain the reason your non connection ...

Does your chair inhibit ok when being charged? ...
It's a forlorn hope but the inhibit wire is also a programming wire ..so if your chair isn't inhibiting then the wire isn't connected.

Cheers Woody

[brax]

Does your chair inhibit ok when being charged? ...

Yes it inhibits. If you turn power on while charging you get flashing battery gauge.
started taking apart but stupidly grabbed allen wrenches of the US standard instead of metric. It's raining and the others are out in my shuttle bus. Will have to wait for my son to get home to get them for me.

I realize now what the esp module looks like. i looked for it the one time i opened my chair up. you can program speed and some basic settings with the buttons on it if you have one. I didn't find one, but it could be deeper inside. i didn't trace wires, as my joystick ends up in a bundle of about six or seven before it goes down into chassis. In this chair one battery sits in the front and one in the back with lots of space and some components in-between. I will have to go get some more ziplocks and open the bundle to facilitate following leads.

i will get to the bottom of this. When i get the lead i may also hook up spare pilot+ box i got and see if it works.

Thanks for all your assistance in this endeavor Woody. You have helped me enormously.

brax

[Twinpanther]

I love the information in this thread. Thank you guys for keeping it going and Woody for working so hard. Although most if it is over my head I have a Pride/Quantum Dealer programmer and a Pride/Quantum USB cable so I thought I'd take some pics of the cable in case it might possibly be of any use to you folks. Now if I could only find the Pride/Quantum OEM Software to go along with it. Figures that now that I'm ready for it, it isn't available.
Here they are, hope they may be of some use.

Click on either of these first two for the full size image.

[Burgerman]

Pride have all the stuff that makes our powerchairs usable well hidden and locked down. And I doubt you will get hold. They can if you find a GOOD dealer (service provider) of which I suspect there are a couple out of rather a lot, get pride to do a OEM level update. This is shipped as a firmware FIX rather than just using a lower level programmer.

But they pretend its not, and its going to be impossible to get them to set all the required parameters effectively to OFF. And to set turn rates etc at low speed accordingly. The only way to do this is by using a system that has a OEM available programmer, from one of the big manufacturers. And thats not easy or cheap...

For this reason alone I wouldnt buy ANY chair with a locked down OEM base setting or the lack of REAL programming tools such as the OEM level tools we really need. So Pride/Quantum and their Q tronix or whatever its called (built by a third party like Curtiss) is a no go.

Thanks for the pictures/info.

[woodygb]

EXCELLENT!

I was working on a CANBUS...

KPG4 can OK.JPG (63.26 KiB) Viewed 16976 times

[woodygb]

Jeez ..that chip is OTT...

MC9S12DP256B: 16-Bit Microcontroller
The MC9S12DP256B Microcontroller unit (MCU) is a 16-bit device composed of standard on-chip peripherals including a 16-bit central processing unit ( MC9S12DT256C, MC9S12DJ256C, MC9S12DG256C, MC9S12DT256B MC9S12DJ256B MC9S12DG256B MC9S12A256B ), 256K bytes of Flash EEPROM 12.0K bytes of RAM, 4.0K bytes of EEPROM 2 asynchronous serial Communications Interfaces (SCI), three serial peripheral Interfaces (SPI), an 8 channel IC/OC enhanced capture Timer two 8-channel, 10-bit Analog-to-digital converters (ADC), an 8-channel pulse-width Modulator (PWM), 89 Discrete digital I/O channels (Port A, Port B, Port K and Port E), 20 Discrete digital I/O lines with interrupt and wakeup capability, five CAN 2.0 A, B software compatible modules (MSCAN12), and an Inter-IC Bus ...................

[woodygb]

Now if I could only find the Pride/Quantum OEM Software to go along with it.

...Try the Curtis OEM .

[Burgerman]

Pride most likely have a custom firmware that will stop that working in an attempt to stop us getting access... After all we are not worthy!

But if it works, and OEM level software doesent need a dongle etc we are in business.

[woodygb]

Driver for the CANUSB

http://www.sontheim-industrie-elektroni ... enter.html

REGISTER and download MT-API

[woodygb]

John in Canada recently ordered one of these...

USB-CAN USB to CAN Bus Converter Adapter + USB Cable Support 64-bit Win7

via Ebay ...hopefully that will prove to be a cheaper alternative to the high priced Curtis version.

[ex-Gooserider]

Don't want to be a wet blanket on the idea of reverse engineering any of these cables / software, etc. but I am wondering if that microprocessor in the cable that Twinpanther has, and that Woody has ID'd could represent a major problem for the effort?

From what Woody has shown, it looks like going from USB or Serial to CANbus isn't that complex, certainly not enough to justify needing a reasonably powerful CPU in the cable... Makes me wonder what it's doing there?

If it's not needed for doing protocol conversion, then the only thing I can think of is for it to be doing some sort of "security" function, like possibly either encryption, or some sort of owner validation / authorization (i.e. like a dongle) and control over what settings can be changed... If so, it might make the reverse engineering VERY difficult...

(I could see them even defeating "snooping" efforts by having some sort of encryption key in the processor that would hash the controller serial number (or some other ID value) with the internal key, and thus write different information to the EEPROM for each controller even when setting the same values... It would certainly be nasty to beat that one...)

ex-Gooserider

[woodygb]

Hopefully Twinpanther can get his lead working with the CANUSB drivers I've sent him.
Then it might be possible to get/glean some answers to the "I wonder" questions.

I'd really like a controller to play at interfacing to .... trying via the Web is frustrating.

[woodygb]

http://www.sontheim-industrie-elektroni ... ENG_V3.pdf

I've seen line drawing depictions of both these can usb interfaces in Curtis/ Q logic pdf references.

[Twinpanther]

Well, this is where I stand at the moment:
On the CAN When I plug into USB I get a single green flash in USB Status.
I plug into chair with chair power off and no changes. Turn Chair on and still nothing.
When I click "Blink On" (Left box in first img below.)under either CANUSB1 or 2 I get green flashing USB Status and Amber Flashing CAN Status and CAN Data.
When I open 1314 PCPS and hit F2 to "connect" I get the error in the first img.
When I click OK I get a small connecting box then almost immediately the error box in the second img.
The third img is just to show that the driver seems to be working properly.

Results.jpg (248.51 KiB) Viewed 16133 times

[woodygb]

Do you actually start the MT-API?

I'd have thought that you should just plug in the USB interface ...and allow the 1314 prog to initiate coms.

[woodygb]

All you probably needed from the zip file was the USBCAN interface drivers ...the rest is more than likely superflous to the 1314 programming.

driver.jpg (2.18 KiB) Viewed 16107 times

You've run the drivers and your USB Port is working.

So turn off the program that is running MT_API and just see if the 1314 will detect the lead and initiate communication.

[gologen]

When I open 1314 PCPS and hit F2 to "connect" I get the error in the first img.
When I click OK I get a small connecting box then almost immediately the error box in the second img.
[/attachment]

Yes, it's right.
1314 PCPS works in CAN-bus only with devices company I+ME ACTIA GmbH.(Correct me if i'm wrong).
This is what I have defined. When you trying to connect to CAN-bus it start looking for installed devices of this company. By default it uses communication protocol (*.dll) for NetPorty II. After, program send query to devices "Who are you?". If no answer, program trying to reset device. If no answer again, you get Error message.

[woodygb]

A copy of the lastest 1314 dealer software should have the needed dll files ...

The MT-API download from here ... http://www.sontheim-industrie-elektroni ... enter.html
actually lists some curtis dll files ..if you un zip the MTI cab files.

I'm hoping to get hold of the latest software ..but I really need ALL the cables and a controller to play properly...trying to help via the web is very difficult.

[Seajays]

Woody, I can send you a joystick and my 5 pin cable end if you can locate a Controller ( Pride CTLDC 1466)

[woodygb]

Cheers John,

I'll keep that in mind....

I've presently got my eye on some later 1314 software .... I'm wondering if the dealer files from this will integrate into the earlier OEM software.

Trying to "see" what Twinpanther/Paul is doing and suggest settings/things to change/prod ... without actually knowing what should happen...is long winded and fraught with miss understandings.

PLUS it's frightening if your controller suddenly throws a fit!

[woodygb]

1314 PCPS works in CAN-bus only with devices company I+ME ACTIA GmbH.(Correct me if i'm wrong).

MT-API files

curt1.jpg (23.1 KiB) Viewed 16018 times

The latest 1314 (version 4) appears to use a CANFOX lead.



USB and RS232

[gologen]

The MT-API download from here ... http://www.sontheim-industrie-elektroni ... enter.html
actually lists some curtis dll files ..if you un zip the MTI cab files.

It's link to API and drivers for Sontheim's devices. And will not work with any other devices. If you have some Sontheim's device you can try.

I don't have idea how much it cost, but original CAN/USB INTERFACE H-1111-068 price $750. It's a little bit expensive
http://www.southwestmedical.com/replacement-parts/pride-mobility/quantum-6000z-hd/accessory-lap-belts-tools/recommended-field-repair-tools/hand-held-programmer-pc-programming-disc-w-cable/q-logic-curtis-electronics .
So need alternative.

John in Canada recently ordered one of these...

USB-CAN USB to CAN Bus Converter Adapter + USB Cable Support 64-bit Win7

via Ebay ...hopefully that will prove to be a cheaper alternative to the high priced Curtis version.

I guess, this is can be alternative. Price ~ $50.

When my son got new wheelchair Quantum Q-Logic Q6000Z with terrible settings, I started looking for programmator. For people with disability difficult to find $750.
I bought at ebay similar USB to CAN Bus Converter for ~$50.

USB_CAN.jpg (70.54 KiB) Viewed 15996 times

I wrote new dll for connection 1314 PCPS with this device and i got some results.

[woodygb]

Care to share the results and what 1314 version did you use?