S646se - Full LITHIUM Pack Project - First Attempt

[expresso]

@ LENNY - thanks - i will try to follow those tips tomorrow - but i am afraid there isnt much room to hold the iron to the side of the connector or under it etc, - i will try - they are close together -

if thats the case - then i should use the flatter tip to hold it on the connector maybe the bottom of it - to get it hot and then add the solder and let it melt in it - hopefully - i am using thin solder - - not sure if theres even thinner versions

but this came with the kit and i purchased 3 more to be safe - i also have thicker solder for the andersons - thats too thick for sure -

maybe i can dip the solder end in the flux i have - just a bit to get it started when i place it in the connector cup - its just tight space and have to do it with both hands in action - plus if i can have my helper hold the maginfine handle - if that works - well see -

i cant say i made anything huge progress today - but at least i didnt go backwards wire is closer now to the connector - wires i can tin - cut to size - - then the hard part comes -

[LROBBINS]

On fresh fine gauge wires and fresh connectors, there's usually no need for added flux. It's OK to use some, and I usually do, but even on the Andersons just a tiny bit - it just has to flow, clean and wet the surface, or even just part of it. I've had the same little tin of paste flux for at least 25 years, though it's almost all gone now. For the sub-D connectors, you can use a fine wire or needle touched to the flux and then slipped in and out of the cup - that's plenty.

Many people prefer chisel shaped tips because they transfer heat better, but I like the finest needle tip available because I can see around it. You just have to practice enough, even just with soldering butt joints between two scrap pieces of wire till you find the technique that's comfortable for you.

You might consider doing a Google search for "arrl new york city". ARRL is the Amateur Radio Relay League, i.e. ham radio hobbyists. There may even be a listing for ARRL in the phone book. You might be able to find someone, even in your neighborhood, who can help you with this. As you wander around, you can also keep a look out for strange looking antennas on building roofs, and ask if a ham operator lives there. Before the Twin Towers got built, and when I was 55 years younger than I am now, I used to spend lots of time in that part of Manhattan - it was the electronics hobbyist's idea of heaven. That's all gone now, but there must still be a few people around NY who like to work with their hands and their heads.

Ciao,
Lenny

[expresso]

ok thanks - i will try just a little thin flux in the cup like you suggest - or maybe just a bit on the solder itself so when the cup is hot i can touch the solder on it -

i am sure if i try hard enough to find a place - around here in the city - i may be able - but there is really nothing anymore for hobbies - etc, - or anyone willing to do work - if i even did find someone - the cost would be very expensive i am sure

bothers me that nothing is reasonable anymore - i am not looking to have it done for free - but the prices here are a joke - you cant get pizza for less for 30 dollars - thats the only ones i like - - the rest are crap -

tomorrow is another day - i will take your input and the rest of them - and try to apply it - i have 7 connectors left to practice on - i hope to be ready by the time i finish them - This week - will post tomorrows and hopefully its an improvment - even if its a small one - as long as i dont get worse at it -

thanks -
Claudio

[Burgerman]

Almost good enough now.

[expresso]

Almost good enough now.

Good to hear i know its Almost - but coming from you - means i am on the right track

[Scollard]

OK. You're doing great. It looks like not enough heat and too much solder.

You should have a couple of different sizes of solder. For the small cups you should be using a very fine solder, maybe 0.3mm. For the larger wire like soldering up the anderson connectors I use a 0.8mm solder.

You should not touch the solder to the soldering iron. Your joint is "clumpy" because you have melted the solder with the iron but the fitting was not hot enough for the solder to freely flow into the joint. Same thing happened when you practiced splicing wire. I told you to put the iron in the middle of the splice and then only touch the wire on either side of the iron with the solder. When the wire was hot enough to melt the solder it will pull the solder through the joint. Same idea here, heat the cup with the iron until it is hot enough to melt the solder, remove the iron and melt the solder into the joint. You should end up with a nice smooth shiny coating.

Then tin the wire and use the helping hands to hold the wire in the cup. Like BM said, at this point you should not need any more solder. you put the hot iron on the joint and let it melt everything. Take the iron away and you have a nice smooth shiny connection.

To remove solder you use something called solder wick. You put in on the solder and then heat it with the iron until the solder melts and get sucked into the braided wire.

http://www.amazon.com/Aven-17542-Desold ... 13598M9_tt

[ex-Gooserider]

http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/dsubs/d_solder.html Look what I found!

EXCELLENT tutorial... He likes a bit more of a gap between the cup and the insulation than I would, but otherwise spot on... (I want just enough gap that I'm sure the wire is bottoming on the cup, not the insulation.)

ex-Gooserider

[ex-Gooserider]

they dont have connectors that can crimp on - even if its not that one - nothing that can hold the current ? that would be so much easier for me -

They do, but they tend to be expensive and hard to find in the small quantities that you are going to need - different story if you want to hop a jet to Shenzen and visit the connector mall to pick up qty 10K In addition you would need to purchase very expensive tooling to go with it...

There is a reason people still use solder-cup type connectors if doing less than mass-production quantities...

There are similar issues with the Deutsch connectors you pointed at, plus they are usually pretty high insertion / removal force and have a fairly low 'connection cycle' life rating. They are great for weatherproof automotive / industrial type use, but overkill for this application.

The screw connector breakout board has the low current capacity problem that BM mentioned, and is not really suited for the job - that sort of board is what a hardware engineer might have to use while developing a proto-type and designing a cable for it, as it is easy to change the configuration - but once the design was working, he'd be replacing it with a solder type connector.

ex-Gooserider

[expresso]

HI Scollard - thanks - i will do it again tomorrow -

this is the solder i am using - i got 3 of them so i hope its ok

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00068 ... ge_o04_s01

your right - the solder is touching the iron - - i have to try again to just heat the cup and let the solder melt in the cup with out touching the iron

everything is very close - - maybe in that case - i should try the flat tip - and hold under it -
i hope to post pictures tomorrow with better results -

[ex-Gooserider]

Don't hesitate to try and find local ham radio connections - not shops as such, but the guys with the funny antennas that want to talk on their radios... The ham radio community can be a fantastic resource, as a major part of the radio community is helping others. Often hams are a major resource for providing communications during big public events - as volunteers... The ham world was how geeks tended to interact back before Gore invented the Intertubes... As such, they are likely to be more than willing to give you some hands-on help in learning soldering, and might be willing to do more than that... I have long suggested that finding a ham is one of the best approaches for anyone trying to solve the sort of electrical / electronic problem that the commercial people can't or won't touch.... (Helping others also helps justify buying more fancy toys to the spouses...)

ex-Gooserider

ok thanks - i will try just a little thin flux in the cup like you suggest - or maybe just a bit on the solder itself so when the cup is hot i can touch the solder on it -

i am sure if i try hard enough to find a place - around here in the city - i may be able - but there is really nothing anymore for hobbies - etc, - or anyone willing to do work - if i even did find someone - the cost would be very expensive i am sure

bothers me that nothing is reasonable anymore - i am not looking to have it done for free - but the prices here are a joke - you cant get pizza for less for 30 dollars - thats the only ones i like - - the rest are crap -

tomorrow is another day - i will take your input and the rest of them - and try to apply it - i have 7 connectors left to practice on - i hope to be ready by the time i finish them - This week - will post tomorrows and hopefully its an improvment - even if its a small one - as long as i dont get worse at it -

thanks -
Claudio

[expresso]

Ok - Will i do a search and keep an eye out for any Ham Radio places around here - maybe once i start asking and searching - i may find many who knows -

i dont feel its in my area - but its manhattan - you would think you can find anything - i find less here than i did in the bronx -

[ex-Gooserider]

how do i fix a mistake when i solder - if i add too much - etc, - i have flux remover - but dont know how to use it - whats the procedure for that ?

thanks

Flux remover has nothing to do with removing solder - you only want to use it AFTER you are done soldering on a project and want to clean it up prior to other finishing steps like putting on shrink tube, putting it in a case, etc... The reason is that some fluxes can cause corrosion issues later on, though modern day fluxes are usually not to bad in this regard. I also like to clean it off because it also gets rid of any tiny metal bits that might be stuck in the flux layer, and it also makes it easier to do a final inspection of all the joints....

As Lenny mentioned, there are several ways to remove excess solder - small amounts can often simply be removed by reheating the joint with a clean tip, as some of the excess will transfer to the iron...

Next is the 'solder sucker' which comes in many variations, all of which amount to a spring loaded suction device - cock it, hold the tip next to the joint as you heat it, then trigger it and 'slurp' up the molten solder...

Last is the 'solder wick' which is a sort of ribbon made from ultra fine wire. Push into the excess solder with a hot iron, as the solder melts it will wick into the ribbon...

None of these is perfect, and which one to use and how / when is the sort of thing one learns only from experience and probably ruining a LOT of boards and parts....

Note that 'rework' is itself a skill that is in many ways harder to master than soldering itself, especially to do it without causing MORE damage... Far more important to get the skills down that will let you do it right the first time....

(Rework is problematic enough that many of the stricter soldering construction standards absolutely prohibit it - get it right or throw it out...)

ex-Gooserider

[ex-Gooserider]

Ok - I tired two more times - i dont think its much of an improvement - but here they are - its hard to get the right amount of the flux in the cups either too much or not enough - and makes me have to try to fix it which only makes it worse

you will see some touching etc, - only thing i did ok was tinning the wires first - and cutting them down to size to get them closer -

these pics may be the better of the rest and the first ones i did today - i used two more 25 pin connectors - i have 7 left - 2 a day for rest of week - i hope i improve by then -

Those are MUCH improved - you need to work on how much solder to use, but definitely a better job...

ex-Gooserider

[ex-Gooserider]

the larger wire 12 AWG - would do the same way ? or is there a trick to larger wire - etc, -

thats more worrisome for me - being larger - will do it your way tomorrow - hoping to improve each day i try - i have about 10 of those connectors - i hope i dont need more before doing the real one -

Big wires can use the same basic technique, but as BM has said, you will need to have a bigger iron and really good technique to be able to heat things up fast enough to get a good joint before the heat spreads enough to damage things. Takes practice and really good setups....

Use less solder in the solder cup - the idea is that you want just enough solder in the cup that it fills the space between the wire and the cup when you insert the wire, but not overflow....

ex-Gooserider

[expresso]

thanks Scollard - eXgoose- BM -

feeling better now - at least its progress - and i agree best to get it right and not have to fix repair - to remove it -

i am going to try it like the site BM linked - i was having the connector on the side - maybe i will try it facing up with the helping hands holding it there

and see if i can get it better that way -

[expresso]

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B014KBIB3M?psc=1


this is what i am working with - hope i can do it now - i though it was enough -

[Scollard]

thanks Scollard - eXgoose- BM -

feeling better now - at least its progress - and i agree best to get it right and not have to fix repair - to remove it -

i am going to try it like the site BM linked - i was having the connector on the side - maybe i will try it facing up with the helping hands holding it there

and see if i can get it better that way -

It will work better with finer solder. What you have is what I use on the Andersons, what you need is something half as thick. In the 0.3-0.4 mm range.

[expresso]

oh that sucks -

i dont know which to get - i though that was thin already - theres even tinner ?

[expresso]

http://www.amazon.com/DMiotech®-0-3mm-200G-Rosin-Solder/dp/B016ZMQIE8/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1456884680&sr=8-8&keywords=0.3+mm+solder


any good ? theres so many - cant be sure which is the one i am looking for besides the size -

[expresso]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B012CF ... _pC_nS_ttl


http://www.amazon.com/dp/B016ZMQIE8/ref ... NE1MJWZM32


http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00068IJWC/ref ... V5S6XT26S9


i found a few - which do you think will work best before i order - if this will make it easier for me - i should get the tinner ones - i though what i had was thin already -

[Scollard]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B012CFLF4U?colid=3U5RBQ2LAUELL&coliid=I1UBI7VL4XSJH3&ref_=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl


http://www.amazon.com/dp/B016ZMQIE8/ref ... NE1MJWZM32


http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00068IJWC/ref ... V5S6XT26S9


i found a few - which do you think will work best before i order - if this will make it easier for me - i should get the tinner ones - i though what i had was thin already -

That first one looks fine. Note there is a type. It should read 0.015".

[LROBBINS]

I agree with Scollard. The solder you are using is OK, but a bit thick for what you're doing. 0.031" is 0.8 mm. For small work, better to use 0.3 mm such as this:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B015DLZOL0?psc=1
Don't worry, you'll quickly use up that 0.8 mm on your Andersons. I buy my solder in 1 lb spools (just the very fine stuff 0.2 mm even for Andersons which take a LOT of it) and 1 lb lasts me about 3 years - but I do a lot more soldering. Those little tubes won't last very long at all.

Ciao,
Lenny

[expresso]

I agree with Scollard. The solder you are using is OK, but a bit thick for what you're doing. 0.031" is 0.8 mm. For small work, better to use 0.3 mm such as this:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B015DLZOL0?psc=1
Don't worry, you'll quickly use up that 0.8 mm on your Andersons. I buy my solder in 1 lb spools (just the very fine stuff 0.2 mm even for Andersons which take a LOT of it) and 1 lb lasts me about 3 years - but I do a lot more soldering. Those little tubes won't last very long at all.

Ciao,
Lenny

Ok thanks - i just placed an order for that one - and a few extra connectors - i may need more practice and they are cheap - 10 for 5 dollars - i will try again today with what i have in the meantime - always good practice anyway - i figure a few weeks of this - and i should be ready to make the real cable before end of month - thats my plan -

thanks

[expresso]

Ok today was the worse day so far - i did not improve at all - and actually its worse than the first try i think - i tried having the helping hands hold it and do it that way - like the link the BM sent - i wasnt able to do it that way - i guess its me how i have to hold it etc, - so i went back to the same way i held before - like the picture -

i tape it down and work on one side that way and then flip it over - its not ideal - but it seemed better to me that way - - i am having a hard time trying to heat one cup and not touch the others also - the solder i see how its too thick -
the solder itself barely fits in the cup if i try to slid it down in it - i ordered the thinner solder - should have it on Friday - i gave up after 3 connectors and seems worse as i went -

i cut about 40 more little wires and cut and tinned them - just to have ready - i may skip trying it any more till i get the tinner solder on friday - before i just ruin the rest of what i have in connectors - good think i ordered 10 more also

i am not happy today with the results at all - if i cant improve by next weekend - i have to think about what the next step is going to be - keep trying or plan B - i dont want to give up just yet -

[expresso]

bad

[expresso]

Do i really need to get a different Iron ? what can you recommend that would get the job done - now worried about the 12 AWG wire when and if i get that far

[Scollard]

I used my same 25W iron for both connections. It just take a little bit longer with the 12 AWG wire. I use a butane torch for the Andersons.

[Scollard]

Look how I used my helping hands. I just used one clip to hold the wire in the cup. I used some busbars to support the connector and a wire cutter to keep it from moving away. You have yours taped down. That will work just fine. Now use the helping hands to hold the wire in place. If you have the wire tinned and the cup 1/2 full of solder all you will need is to apply the tip of the iron and wait until everything melts. Then you are done. Tinning the cups will be much easier once you have the thinner solder.

[expresso]

yes i remember you telling me that - so i figure i should be ok - i have the torch for the andersons - i am just worried about getting this cable done now - hopefully the tinner solder will make a different - when i try it again - i may take a break a few days now - solder will arrive on Friday - -

but friday i am busy some and the Tech should be here to swap out the batteries - so dont want too much on my plate in one day - i get stressed and dosnt help - i hate to rush things - and cant over do it - i get tired mentally and physically -

when i go at it again - i will try to do it the same way as i did the previous times - but with the tinner solder - and try hard to do it better - i think i need to cut the wire a little bit longer - not as close to the cup - i been cutting it close and not sure if it helped me -

have to start over again and see what works and what dosnt -

[Burgerman]

Those helping hands are always too weak, slip, and not heavy enough. But I struggle and clamp it to the bench. And tighten everything with pliers...

Someone should make a decent one. I will make my own.

Likewise I am struggling with about 6 old soldering irons of different sizes that get too hot and all black. I should have bought a proper temp controlled quality iron years ago. Specifically http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AWUFVY8/?tag=vglnkc5751-20