PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

[Burgerman]

Theres a point where you realise that no amount of typing will help. That point was pages back! I will regret this but here goes again...

This is my final attempt at explaing the same thing in yet another different way. I have run out of ways to do it now!

You can get 36 cells inside the size/shape of a group 24 that is 240mm tall. And you HAVE 240mm height? And you already have group 24 batts... Think about it. That set of group 24 batteries fit dont they?

[expresso]

just curious - how many users have done a full chair ? maybe would be nice to hear from them - to explain any issues they ran into or not - which model chairs - so others with the same chairs etc, have heads up on whats ahead for them

I have for one, with help from an ex-RAF engineer to build a 8s 5p 75Ah pack using the 40152S Headway cells. My conversion was fairly straight forward since I don't need tilt or lift, and the lead batteries were side by side in one box. I use a PL8 charger with a COOLICE PSU, and its not that hard to set up and configure. Been using a lithium battery pack for over a year now without any issues.

Steve

you know - looking over the specs on those cells - i think i can make that work the same way - 5 cells high by 8 across - its a few Mm longer - but i can maybe work around that -

know that wont give me more Ah than i have - but at least will cut the weight in half and give me more distance since i can use more of Ah - but i know run the rest of shorter service life because i may drain lower - its not ideal - - this if i cant make it work the other way -

i will know better once i check my box again before goin further - i think your batteries are in the same position as mines -

[expresso]

Theres a point where you realise that no amount of typing will help. That point was pages back! I will regret this but here goes again...

This is my final attempt at explaing the same thing in yet another different way. I have run out of ways to do it now!

You can get 36 cells inside the size/shape of a group 24 that is 240mm tall. And you HAVE 240mm height? And you already have group 24 batts... Think about it. That set of group 24 batteries fit dont they?

i do believe you - and i wont ask again - i promise after i get over this - double check my box area - use the cells i ordered to check how it fits -

i will feel better seeing it - but i get what your saying - if i have 24's they should be the same fit

[shirley_hkg]

At great risk of repeating myself for the hundredth time, 6x6 = 36 cells.
9 in parallel, x 4 in series = 12V nominal. (9x 12Ah = 108Ah). Gives one block.

Two Are required for 24V. It will fit any chair that takes a group 24 battery in its specs because a group 24 is specified as 260L, 173W, 225 high. ...

That's right. You can fill 108Ah @ 24V with those 38140 cells in your battery compartment.

3 layers of 6 cells form 2 units . Each unit takes 1.5 layers , i.e. 9 cells .

You put 4 of this 18 cell blocks in your chair , 2 columns by 2 rows .

[Scollard]

Batteries have arrived. BM, any idea on what to expect on charging for the first time? Will they be all at almost the same level and any idea what that level will be. I was thinking about charging 10 at a time in parallel.

J

[Burgerman]

They will all have been fully charged at any time from a few days to a few months ago.

Charge at 3.600V until about 15mA termination current. (manually choose this) each cell. Amps at about 3 per cell. And best in small groups.

So a group of 5 would be 3.60V, 5x 15mA or 50Ma total for termination. Or about 75mA total. And 15A.

Once done, if time isn't a problem, take 1Ah from each exactly at say 5A. You will need to watch this individually one cell at a time... If its too much bother ignore this.

Store them all in a box for as long as you have patience for. A month should be long enough. A week isn't.

Then charge at low rate, say 2A for as long as it takes each one individually. Termination, 25 mA. and 3.60V. Read off the PC screen the mAh returned. Write it on the cell with a black pen and then do the rest the same exact way... Yes its boring and it will only be a small amount.

Then assemble in groups of 8 with the same total mAh as each other. So that each group has a similar figure.

Pain in the backside to do, but better than just assembling at random. Because now each group will self discharge at the same rate and not go out of balance as you wait or store or use them.

PL8? To charge 1 cell or a group of cells in parallel, you need to either cheat (using a lead preset -- ask if you want to know) or use a preset designed for A123 batteries, with a 1S balance lead made up, so you will need a connection to the balance ports as well. Or check out the LiFe preset that just arrived. Not sure if that works, untested as Its new - but looks like it will do 1 cell without balance lead. Could be wrong!

[Scollard]

They will all have been fully charged at any time from a few days to a few months ago.
PL8? To charge 1 cell or a group of cells in parallel, you need to either cheat (using a lead preset -- ask if you want to know) or use a preset designed for A123 batteries, with a 1S balance lead made up, so you will need a connection to the balance ports as well. Or check out the LiFe preset that just arrived. Not sure if that works, untested as Its new - but looks like it will do 1 cell without balance lead. Could be wrong![/i]

Hyperion 1420i.

Is the purpose of taking the 1Ah because it's better to store them at < 100% charge?

[Burgerman]

Well they are shipped fully charged. But lithium desent like being full. So its better to be full minus 1Ah, and stored. Then refilled and measured. So they are not sat at 100% for a month.

[Burgerman]

Hyperion is easy. No termination to set. It figures it out.

[Scollard]

BM,

By far, the hardest thing to do is put the plastic blocks together. Any suggestions on how to make it easier?

[Burgerman]

Big wooden bench, small wooden hammer. And a plan. There's no other way. Wear rubber gloves when fitting the connecting plates and be careful. Sparks and hot metal if you slip and short something.

I have done a few of them now and am quite good at it. The first one was difficult because I didn't know what I was doing.

[expresso]

To start learning to solder - making leads etc, -

would these items work - if i want to make Power leads for anderson SB50 - 8 AWG wire etc, -

can this get the job done - i might as well start to learn to solder them or can i just Crimp them instead - ? in which case all i need is a good Crimper - with heat shrink etc, to cover end - or do both solder and crimp to be sure ?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B015UC2IVG?psc=1

http://www.amazon.com/Elenco-SH-1-Solde ... MB5FJ14E8K

http://www.amazon.com/SE-MZ101B-Helping ... MB5FJ14E8K

would this be all i need to solder - make a set of power leads ? = i cant seam to find a Wire cutter crimper for 8 AWG wire - something easy to use - Racket type - the ones i find go to 10 AWG - up to 22

i figure i start and try making some wires - - and use this as the fuse holder ? http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003DFIW1S/ref ... 85K9TUV8MP

if i have to make new cables to my chair batteries for charging and or connecting the Battery ADD on -

[Burgerman]

To solder the big cables I use a small flame. Trying to heat that heavy cable with a 60 watt soldering iron will be super slow and depends on technique. The iron will be fine on small stuff.

You need resin/rosin flux. And proper solder with lead... Not lead free. And cored solder for electrical stuff.

For Andersons you need to crimp first. And same for many connections. And use the correct sized Anderson connector pins.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Silverline-Ne ... SwAL9UdbZQ

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from= ... e&_sacat=0

HOW:
http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/crimp-solder.htm

Crimper
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4mm-70mm-8-To ... 1098640345

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hydraulic-Cri ... SwHnFVk5Od

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4mm-70mm-HYDR ... qu2pEmJnCA

[expresso]

ok thanks alot - i didnt know -

i added those items to a list - to order all at once -

i need to find the solder - flux - and a wire cutter splicer -

would this cable be fine ? http://www.ebay.com/itm/100-50-ft-50-RE ... SwstxU9QoP

about the anderson connectors - i am not sure i understand - about get the correct size - my chargers both have SB50 Gray connectors on them - and my chair also -

these are the chargers i use - http://www.chargingchargers.com/charger ... c2024.html

http://www.chargingchargers.com/charger ... c2415.html

i had them make me the cables at the time when i ordered the chargers -

if i have to buy my own connectors to make - they would have to still fit on my charger connector -

would this be correct ones ? http://www.bestboatwire.com/anderson-sb50-8-awg-gray

using the AWG wire - with this connector - this would also fit on the others i already have ?

the color is one thing - but the AWG for the plugs is another thing -

is 8 AWG going to be enough to not have any issues down the line - or do i need 6 AWG - which will make it harder to bend etc, - fuse 60A if do them over or more ?

[Burgerman]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PAIR-50-AMP-1 ... ueZBYGxrZA

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PAIR-50-AMP-6 ... NJMgt8XvPg

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PAIR-50-AMP-1 ... spT0b3JH6A

All different CABLE entry sizes.

Use the same colour for everything.

For an add on pack any size cable will be OK, I would probably use 4 or 6mm2

Not sure how that works out in old money.

[expresso]

How much do you guys pay for shipping from EV - for the headways ? more or less -

i was charged $60 for shipping - was my only option when i checked out and had to use paypal - the home page shows Visa - Mastercard and paypal - but when i checked out - only option was paypal and $60 shipping to me -

sounds like a lot - - only 8 Cells and few extra blocks etc, -

disappointed - i feel i should have ordered more cells to start with - they will ship tomorrow i was told - once i get i can check the size spacing for my other chair - and how many more i can add for my ADD On pack -

now i am thinking i can add 32 Cells for the ADD on - i may be able to fit that in my backpack and just leave it hanging the same way i have it now - but instead of charger in there - i have the cells instead - that should hold me for the whole day with a charge -

if i do that - i have to order again - and more shipping

i hope they done charge me extra for duty etc,- that would really suck -

is there any place here in the States to buy these Cells - instead of China ? at a decent price

[Burgerman]

disappointed - i feel i should have ordered more cells to start with

Yes. 72! And done the lot. Its no harder than doing the addon... Shipping small amounts is probably more expensive. But I think it seems more expensive to you because of the dollar value. Not sure how the US works, but here I get them shipped as mobility batteries and no import tax/duty etc.

[expresso]

your right - just have to understand my position - as you know - i dont know much about any of this - all i do know comes from here -

and i dont have any thing i need in tools to do this - so for me - its a HUGE investment to even start - as you - you for one and most important have the know how and plenty of it - which is great for all of us who dont -

and you been doing this for years so you have all the tools already - chargers - solders - crimpers - etc, it all adds up when you have to start from scratch like me -

that is one of my reasons to not jump into it right away - i have to ask about every item - which i need - to do the job etc, - buy all of them - charger and psu is easiest to just buy - cost is another - but all the little items - that drives me crazy when i see all the things i have to do -

but one thing at a time - i have 8 one the way now - so thats done - i may just add another 8 to that and leave that alone for the Add on -

if i like how it works - i will check other chair to make sure - then next order will be for 75 of them to keep a few extra in case - and take it from there -

most likely after xmas - i have to still do shopping for that -

i will get the Cellpro 8 when time comes - i read the manual and i want the computer to work with it - the PSU i havnt decided yet -

[Burgerman]

But the learning is all part of the fun!

So is getting it wrong. How do you think I figured it all out?

As I read somewhere once on a sig (maybe woodygb? I forget)

An good engineer is someone that has made every mistake in the book.
A master engineer is someone that made every mistake twice...

That's how you learn.

[expresso]

I agree - going to school when i did go - i didnt learn much -
when i got a job doing the work - i learned more -

i will get my utilty cart in a few days - at least i have a place to put all these new tools i have to get wires etc, - in one place - and roll it around as i need it

i forgot to add the rubber hammer to tap the blocks in place - on my next order -


http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... 0amp_.html i think i like this unit - i really hate units with no power switch on them

i like to switch it on when i want - and off as i need with out unplugging all the time -

this PSU with the Cellpro 8 - would be good even for MK GEL and AGM etc, - if in 24V connected - but single battery 12V - it cant do ? or can do that also

[flagman1776]

I plugged my power supply into a dedicated switched power strip... just throw the switch & my 1420i powers up... after connecting to my pack of course.

[Scollard]

I agree - going to school when i did go - i didnt learn much -
when i got a job doing the work - i learned more -

i will get my utilty cart in a few days - at least i have a place to put all these new tools i have to get wires etc, - in one place - and roll it around as i need it

i forgot to add the rubber hammer to tap the blocks in place - on my next order -


http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... 0amp_.html i think i like this unit - i really hate units with no power switch on them

i like to switch it on when i want - and off as i need with out unplugging all the time -

this PSU with the Cellpro 8 - would be good even for MK GEL and AGM etc, - if in 24V connected - but single battery 12V - it cant do ? or can do that also

Get the butane torch to solder the anderson connectors. This is mine: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00Z2DAOQU

Get a hydraulic crimper.

Get the soldering iron if you're going to solder a Combi Sub-D. And the other soldering accessories. You also need a tip cleaner: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005C789EU

Helping hands - Totally awesome.

Here is a picture of my power supply. They are two 12V HP Computer Server Power Supplies wired in Series.

[img]/Users/jds/Desktop/IMG_0549.jpg[/img]

Here is a picture of my Hyperion connected to my Macbook Air. I run the Hyperion Software in Windows 10, running in a Parallels Virtual machine. It all works well. You can see my charge cable with an Anderson Connector. I plug that into my scooter and can charge at 24V. Beside the cable you can see the Parallel Adaptor which I can put on my scooter to charge both batteries in parallel at 12V. I can do this from my Hyperion or I can plug into my SUV's 12V system and charge while on the road. I can also use the charger that came with my scooter in it's normal spot as long as my serial adaptor is plugged in. All this goes out the window when I switch to Lithium. Then the Hyperion must be used, either from the bench using the PSU or powered from my 12V supply from my SUV.

[img]/Users/jds/Desktop/IMG_0552.jpg[/img]

Here is a picture of my Stack of 56 cells. Shipping costs were around $260 to Seattle. It took 1 week to process and pack and 1 week to ship. They are listed as Replacement Battery for Mobility Scooter. So far no duties.

[img]/Users/jds/Desktop/IMG_0551.jpg[/img]

[shirley_hkg]

That 50a power supply worth $25 here. Rip off price.

[Scollard]

Ok. Let try tis again with pictures.

Here is a picture of my power supply. They are two 12V HP Computer Server Power Supplies wired in Series.

Here is a picture of my Hyperion connected to my Macbook Air. I run the Hyperion Software in Windows 10, running in a Parallels Virtual machine. It all works well. You can see my charge cable with an Anderson Connector. I plug that into my scooter and can charge at 24V. Beside the cable you can see the Parallel Adaptor which I can put on my scooter to charge both batteries in parallel at 12V. I can do this from my Hyperion or I can plug into my SUV's 12V system and charge while on the road. I can also use the charger that came with my scooter in it's normal spot as long as my serial adaptor is plugged in. All this goes out the window when I switch to Lithium. Then the Hyperion must be used, either from the bench using the PSU or powered from my 12V supply from my SUV.

Here is a picture of my Stack of 56 cells. Shipping costs were around $260 to Seattle. It took 1 week to process and pack and 1 week to ship. They are listed as Replacement Battery for Mobility Scooter. So far no duties.

[expresso]

I plugged my power supply into a dedicated switched power strip... just throw the switch & my 1420i powers up... after connecting to my pack of course.

that can work - i can do that also - but i have to remember to always plug it in first to the batteries before turning it on ?

[expresso]

That 50a power supply worth $25 here. Rip off price.

so i guess thats not the one to get then - off the list of PSU - -

[expresso]

nice Scollard -
thanks for the links on Amazon -
i am saving all of them in my wish list so i dont forget what i need

alot of Cells - and alot of shipping costs - i hate that - but done once i guess -

i am looking at $2000 - and thats just the cells - really

so i have to think hard about taking on this kind of project - reason why i want to do the ADD on first - i know - may mean i waste more later if i do decide to do the whole chair -

no easy way out

[Scollard]

That 50a power supply worth $25 here. Rip off price.

so i guess thats not the one to get then - off the list of PSU - -

Here is one similar to my PSU. Good Price, lots of power. More than a Powerlab PL8 can use.

http://r.ebay.com/NqDIEB

[Burgerman]

Cellpro PL8v2 = 1344 Watts OUT. But that means at least 1344 + 15% + a bit in reserve IN.

So to get full power you would need around a 1550 watt supply and a bit left over so nothing tripped or failed.

That said, I use 2 of these PL8 chargers, powered by 2x 1200 watt quality bench supplies. Although that 1200 is a safe figure. They actually can do 31V max and 43A if pushed to max all day long. So nearer 1330 watts. That is however not adequate for max power but still more than anyone needs!

Word of warning with hyperion. Connect the power first. Not the battery. That includes the balance connectors.

Power first! I have destroyed 2 over the years by forgetting the power was off. Normally its not a problem. But it CAN blow up the mosfets... Also you might want to look at the Bluetooth page I have for hyperion. Because the USB is fragile and any electrical ground or power supply problems will take it out, or worse take out your computer. Connect that last... Or use a USB OptoIsolator. The PL8 has one built into its interface. Be sure to use the latest firmware too. If I were you I would wire it with a PL8 in mind too. You can no longer obtain replacement hyperions.

[expresso]

If i decided to start this project

i would need this package - http://www.usastore.revolectrix.com/Pro ... -Adapter_2

and this PSU http://www.usastore.revolectrix.com/Pro ... -Station_2

another silly question - the power cord from the PSU will plug right into this charger ? i dont see any pictures of the charger behind it - or the PSU -

this would be the Min. items i will need - ?

Would any other PSU work as good etc, -

Such a nice day today - going for a Ride -

thanks -