Battery ADD on pack - First Attempt -

[Burgerman]

Thay looks ok, I would leave the settings alone. You took some out of the lead, I dont think your 26v before charging was correct. It needs to be measured before you press "charge".

Maybe by connecting that cell checker...

41Ah returned today run - it seems i can get double the distance and use 80ah of battery - with getting too deeply drained ?

You have about 40 to 50Ah lead max, and 36Ah lithium. So maybe not double but somewhere very close. About 27 real world miles with lead + addon.

Thats 2.8Ah per mile. So with the full big lithium pack, thats 105 div by 2.8 = 37 miles based on your Ah per mile.
With addon too, 36+105 div by 2.8 = 50+ miles real world.

[expresso]

Thay looks ok, I would leave the settings alone. You took some out of the lead, I dont think your 26v before charging was correct. It needs to be measured before you press "charge".

Maybe by connecting that cell checker...

41Ah returned today run - it seems i can get double the distance and use 80ah of battery - with getting too deeply drained ?

You have about 40 to 50Ah lead max, and 36Ah lithium. So maybe not double but somewhere very close. About 27 real world miles with lead + addon.

Thats 2.8Ah per mile. So with the full big lithium pack, thats 105 div by 2.8 = 37 miles based on your Ah per mile.
With addon too, 36+105 div by 2.8 = 50+ miles real world.

i will take a deeper ride today - if i remember to check the volts before i hit start for recharging - the full pack will be on a different chair so may act differently - i think its a big heavier chair also - the P222se is lightweight - simple slim chair - very nimble - and snappy now - was before but feels even nicer now -

if i can ever get my comms working again - i can get back in the settings to turn off front wheel drive !!! its been that way since new so what will i gain - i dont know - and dosnt look like i will ever get back in there now so may not matter either way -

i am going to give my programs to a friend who has a MAC- if she can install them on her Mac - then i will try that and see how that works - i have to try something

[expresso]

You just need to mount the magnet and sensor and put the diameter of the wheel into the computer.

http://www.amazon.com/Computer-Raniaco- ... 0HVM10E_tt

thats cool - thanks - i saved it in my wish list for now -

i want to find the app i had before which i can send the data to my email and open it up in google maps - would show me the whole trip i took on the map - i dont remember the app name

[Burgerman]

Instead of CHARGE choose MONITOR and graph it for a few minutes. It will show you individual cell volts. And batter total volts. And give a graph. As you wait, voltage will rise slowly as the lead recovers a bit.

i am going to give my programs to a friend who has a MAC- if she can install them on her Mac - then i will try that and see how that works - i have to try something

It wont work on a mac. They are betamax. Nothing much works on them unless you also mess about installing a windows emulator program... They are OK if you like shiny icons, and only want to do facetube and check your webmail. With the engine bay welded shut.

[Scollard]

BM is correct, they won't work on a Mac. But you can always buy a new Windows computer and it should work for a little while until it stops. They you can buy a whole new Windows computer again, and again, and again.

[Burgerman]

Funny. How do you explain mine all working perfectly for year after year? Always have/do? Cant remember ever having any problem that I couldnt fix simply, or configure my own way. Why are mac users of the impression windows is unreliable and a mac is superior. Its not. And its dumb.

The only problem with expressos PC is he doesent know how to work it. Or some chip manufacturer has made a driver change that specifically doesent allow the newest driver to work with chinese illegal cloned chips or some such. Even then I posted a screen shot to show how to fix it in 3 clicks.

Like a jet fighter, you wouldnt just buy one without some pilot skills... But a mac is more like a pedal car so its easy! But about as useful...

For eg, even if we ignore all my rc hobby stuff, my mower, etc, heli/quadcopter, programmable servos, camera specific setup software, transmitters (2), new roboteq surveilance camera / mower 4x4, and the GPS screen info overlay board, etc and stick only to wheelchair related stuff:

It still wont run the R-net software OEM or otherwise, or the other PG software we are talking about here, inc the curtis/pride or dynamic stuff, or any other manufacturers chair programming software. Likewise the Hyperion or the PL8 charger softwares used daily on my chairs. Or my multimeter software, my roboteq software on my BM3 etc, etc.

So whats the use of it? email and bookfacetube.. Or to type a letter in office. Which was originally written for PC so doesent work as well on apples software. So if thats all you need, go for it.

[steves1977uk]

BM is correct, they won't work on a Mac. But you can always buy a new Windows computer and it should work for a little while until it stops. They you can buy a whole new Windows computer again, and again, and again.

What???? Only people who are brainwashed into thinking Windows is a bad OS. Myself personally have never had any issues with Windows OS's (except ME and Vista). Just gotta know how to set it up, just like Linux.

Steve

[Burgerman]

I am not overly struck on the hardware either. Ignoring extra price here, I ordered a 2560 x 1600 apple 30 inch display once. And a Dell 30 inch at the same time to compare. Years back when they both first came out.

I kept the dell, because it was true wide gamut and displayed much more saturated true photographic colour and was factory calibrated for accuracy. And I wanted it for photograhy. Both contrast, colour, screen brightness and colour was just deeper and better. Both were good till you put them side by side. Reds/greens looked washed out by comparison to the dell like most displays are..

The Apple was more expensive and looked marginally better, and modern/arty with its glossy screen. Till you turned it on and tried everything to lose the damned reflections. Everything you need to click on or read was a reflection of your room, or another light/window. Glossy displays on large monitors just dont work unless its dark and you put the lights off. It was seriously annoying. So styling over function.

I now have 2x 30 inch dells with true adobe or rgb capable colour gamut. I ended up with an one extra after a warranty replacement from dell after 3 years. I told them they had not collected the old one by phone. They told me they had, and computers dont lie. So... It had a failed USB 3 hub. My graphx card has 2 outputs and is capable. Since fixed by myself, I intend to use both at once as soon as I get off this damned bed.

[expresso]

BM is correct, they won't work on a Mac. But you can always buy a new Windows computer and it should work for a little while until it stops. They you can buy a whole new Windows computer again, and again, and again.

correct - windows is not as good i think either - its fine for me - because i am not doing anything thats mission critical - i always had windows - software was easy to come by - if not Free - cost is cheaper - but for a reason also

you can get a nice Mac - and pay a good amount of cash - or a windows and pay less than half - but its not the same - if you compare the parts in each unit - you see the big difference -

if you configure both windows and mac with the same parts - you see the prices are much closer - all the others i know who own macs all love them - theres a reason they do -

windows is much more flaky in general - i dont mind messing up a windows unit - i can easily restore - reinstall - etc, etc, - since i never owned a Mac - i cant say for sure

i never really needed a serious machine for work etc, - with laptops - they are a pain - - i built my own desktops - and i pick my own parts so i am ok with my windows desktop - laptop i got now is just a basic AMD A8 Hp model - $280 - for what i use it for - its fine - but if it does act up - i may just use this one for charging only duties -

Ok i think i reached more or less my limit with the ADD ON - in terms of distance - today was the longest i ever did - 21 - close to 22 miles - i am charging now -
i lost the first part of the Cell graph - checking Aol email and my system decided to just reboot on its own - haha

it had 24.8 V for the pack - and the lowest cell was 3.043V - i remember -

i lost a green at 18 miles and then went down much faster as usual - at one point my chair got slow and sluggish - etc, - i wasnt sure if i was going to make it - i was still about 30 to 40 blocks left - at about 5 blocks from my home - i realized i must have hit the speed knob and slowed it down - i turned it back up max and chair felt fine again - i must have hit it by mistake when i went thru this park - a section had those cobblestones - i had to slow down shaken as i go over them - i hate those roads -

i might have to hit the speed knob there - didnt realize it - if i knew - i was going to go a few more miles to see - i made it about 12 blocks from the GWB -

i turned back because it was a FAR ride - and my gps said i was at about 11 miles - this chair is not going to make it over the GWB and Back - unless i take the bus one way up to the bridge -

it was a LONG ride - at least i know my limit more or less now - the GWB may be another 2 miles each way - and i was maybe 1 mile away - so i think a good extra 8 miles to be safe would have done it - the full pack should - but i will add the ADD ON to it just to be safe


https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... ua6KJRJdWE

thats the ride i took today - the APP is Track it or Track me - you export it to Google maps

[Burgerman]

You are not good with computers. Your phone even has a virus or three...


That voltage would recover if you left it a while. But 24.8v it still means 12.4v each on your gels... Thats another 40 to 50% of them left! Although you cant get all of it out. Your chair cuts off power at 11.9 to 12v.

At a push you could get another 4 to 5 miles. And easily so if you gave them half an hours rest. And remember they were stored and this is a first serious cycle. They will get better by about 2 miles too.

See page 13 of MKs data sheet:
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... IA&cad=rja

So when you recharge you will put back about 33Ah into the Addon, and about 35 into the MK. Plus about another8 or so as its not 100% efficient. So at a guess, 76Ah returned. And maybe a bit more wasted sat at CV for hours. You could have done that bridge but was wise not to yet!

[expresso]

the phone - virus thing - dosnt mean anything - thats just the ad saying that - so you can upgrade the antivirus and pay more - to scan and find the so called 3 virus it says

i have antivirus and it finds nothing - i dont bother - - still going - at 41ah - but dont think i hit 70ah returned - maybe 60 ah - well see when its done

[Burgerman]

My phone has no ads. I use an ad blocker. And its routed etc...

[expresso]

if i start the app for the speed etc, - dosnt show that i have any viruses - once i start the gps - it shows that - i click it - takes me to an app to install to clean up junk etc.

i dont worry about it - when i get feed up with the phone - i ride 21 miles and toss it in the water get another one which i plan to do in the near future - this one is cheap and acting up also -


46ah returned - at CV stage now -

i
what does the bypass mean ? when charging on the bypass row - Cell 1 etc, - i would think its by passing those groups - the numbers keep moving up and down percentage etc,

[Burgerman]

46 altogether?

Or did you restart it?

Because your previous escapades showed 2.8Ah per mile. 22X 2.8 -- 61ah + about 10% recharge losses.

And your 24.8v means 95 percent lithium used, but half the lead. so 33 lith, + 35 lead, plus losses... 75 ish?

i
what does the bypass mean ? when charging on the bypass row - Cell 1 etc, - i would think its by passing those groups - the numbers keep moving up and down percentage etc,

Percentage of 1A charge balancer on that cell, is bypassed (dumped) to keep a cell from going above correct voltage. Its the cell balancing current. If any reach 100 the charger throttles back charge amps too. Right down to 1A if needed.

[Scollard]

OMG, I love seeing the Windoze fanboys go on and on.

I live in both worlds and I have worked extensively with them for about as long as it would be possible. As a scientist I've also lived in the Unix/AUX/VAX/360 world.

Microsoft Word was first made for Xenix systems and was on the Mac along with Excel, developed specifically for the Mac, before Windows 1.0 even existed. And lets face it, the first really usable version of Windows was NT 3.1 released around 1993.

I go back as far as PC DOS 1.0, Apple DOS (I had an Apple ][), Commodore PET and CP/M. My first Windows was 386 but it did't multitask so we went with Quarterdeck DESKview when upgrading our Hospital's computer system.

In almost 40 years of working with computers, specifically using them as tools, not toys or hobbies, I can say with out a doubt, Windows computers are the VHSes of the computer industry. A far inferior technology in which almost everyone has drunk the koolaid and now look at what we are stuck with. Eventually some CD/DVD OS will come around and put the VHS in the trash bin.

Oh, BTW, Betamax is still around today but there's no VHS anymore. The helical scan technology that is Betamax is still used for Computer DAT Backups.

I should also add, I love Windows 10. Best since 2000. And my Hyperion Software works just fine on my Mac running Windows 10 in a VM.

[Burgerman]

Ditto. And why do you think my dynamometer software was written for a PC? Specifically because thats what the majority had. That was DOS 6.22days.

Today Apple software is good, so is generic IBM platform software, specifically windows. But theres way more compatibility, software, flexibility of configuration, and hardware for windows based machines. This means its easy to get people building and configuring their own machines that are never configured correctly.

When it comes to hardware theres little choice in apple. In PC components theres lots. IF you make the right choices with branded hardware, and quality components and configure it CORRECTLY theres no reason it should be unreliable. Minee certainly are not. Sadly many are not built well, configured well. So you get blue screens from badly matched or configured memory, incorrectly configured bios, bad cooling, cheap cables or connectors. Flaky cheap power supplies. This is where the reputation for crashes etc comes from. EG

its still going the charge in the CV stage now - 30 mins into the charge - the computer rebooted - but the charge was still going - just the graphs wont show it from the start when its done -

I have no such issues. EVER! If it did it once there would be an inquest and major teardown and tins of switchleaner and new cables etc. And its unusual to get them with apple because things are tested to work together. At way too high a price for the limited performance and options you get. You can pay for an expertly built PC too. Most buy on price in the high street and get what they deserve.

[expresso]

46 altogether?

Or did you restart it?

Because your previous escapades showed 2.8Ah per mile. 22X 2.8 -- 61ah + about 10% recharge losses.

And your 24.8v means 95 percent lithium used, but half the lead. so 33 lith, + 35 lead, plus losses... 75 ish?

i
what does the bypass mean ? when charging on the bypass row - Cell 1 etc, - i would think its by passing those groups - the numbers keep moving up and down percentage etc,

Percentage of 1A charge balancer on that cell, is bypassed (dumped) to keep a cell from going above correct voltage. Its the cell balancing current. If any reach 100 the charger throttles back charge amps too. Right down to 1A if needed.

its still going the charge in the CV stage now - 30 mins into the charge - the computer rebooted - but the charge was still going - just the graphs wont show it from the start when its done -

its at 54ah returned - still going - i think it will end up at about 60 ah or 65 ah returned when done -

[expresso]

by the way - someone just tried to charge my card online - for 4,800 dollars at bella bag - AMEX just called me fraud alert

good thing i wasnt resting - i wouldnt have taken the call - or seen the text -

[Burgerman]

I hope you didnt confirm your card number and other details to them...

http://www.financialfraudaction.org.uk/ ... e-Scam.asp or variation.

[expresso]

actually i did - but not my pin -- i am on the phone now with AMEX to double check -

the charge is still going -

[ex-Gooserider]

You just need to mount the magnet and sensor and put the diameter of the wheel into the computer.

http://www.amazon.com/Computer-Raniaco- ... 0HVM10E_tt

I have seen a lot of references to using pedal bike computers on either chairs or motorcycles - they are reasonably cheap, accurate, and simple... However when using them for an 'off-label' application like a chair, you need to take a close look at the specs - how small a wheel will the computer work with? Does it have the display outputs you need (and not to many that you don't)etc...

ex-Gooserider

[shirley_hkg]

I have a Cateye and it records my mileage.

I did 10K km in 3 years, and I want to denote that when it hits 9999.

The battery went out @ 98XX.

[expresso]

ok charge finished - seems like a good full charge

[Burgerman]

Looks about right. Dont change it!

You used 55Ah, 5Ah wasted on recharge.
And almost all of the lithium at 24.8V.
So you only used about 25Ah of your lead. Your lead may improve. And the 25.8V said it was half discharged (or less because we didnt wait 20 hours or so). You need to ignore the lightson that pod a bit more. You still believe they are actually telling you something useful!

It will do the bridge.

[steves1977uk]

Ditto. And why do you think my dynamometer software was written for a PC? Specifically because thats what the majority had. That was DOS 6.22days.

Today Apple software is good, so is generic IBM platform software, specifically windows. But theres way more compatibility, software, flexibility of configuration, and hardware for windows based machines. This means its easy to get people building and configuring their own machines that are never configured correctly.

When it comes to hardware theres little choice in apple. In PC components theres lots. IF you make the right choices with branded hardware, and quality components and configure it CORRECTLY theres no reason it should be unreliable. Minee certainly are not. Sadly many are not built well, configured well. So you get blue screens from badly matched or configured memory, incorrectly configured bios, bad cooling, cheap cables or connectors. Flaky cheap power supplies. This is where the reputation for crashes etc comes from. EG

its still going the charge in the CV stage now - 30 mins into the charge - the computer rebooted - but the charge was still going - just the graphs wont show it from the start when its done -

I have no such issues. EVER! If it did it once there would be an inquest and major teardown and tins of switchleaner and new cables etc. And its unusual to get them with apple because things are tested to work together. At way too high a price for the limited performance and options you get. You can pay for an expertly built PC too. Most buy on price in the high street and get what they deserve.

Agree BM, properly built PC's rarely have issues. My Brother helps me to build mine. Just recently he was fixing a Samsung laptop for a friend, but that has the weirdest setup you've ever seen! You can't just load Windows from DVD or USB, because the stupid thing has a 8GB SSD built into the motherboard and there's no way to disable it in the BIOS.

Even if you install Windows to the HDD, it still puts the bootloader on the SSD!, which is not detected in the BIOS, so you can't boot from it. Yep, you guessed it, when Windows setup restarts it, it goes into an infinite reboot loop. My Brother doesn't have much patience at the best of times, and he was getting rather annoyed with it! After a few days of attempting to reinstall Windows, I went into a command prompt within the Windows setup program, ran DISKPART, made the SSD inactive after cleaning it, and hey presto!, Windows installed the bootloader on the HDD and rebooted to finish setting up.

A major PITA it was!

Steve

[expresso]

Looks about right. Dont change it!

You used 55Ah, 5Ah wasted on recharge.
And almost all of the lithium at 24.8V.
So you only used about 25Ah of your lead. Your lead may improve. And the 25.8V said it was half discharged (or less because we didnt wait 20 hours or so). You need to ignore the lightson that pod a bit more. You still believe they are actually telling you something useful!

It will do the bridge.

Ok - i dont believe the lights are accurate but they offer some feedback - i have to just adjust to the feedback based on the fact its inaccurate - so you feel it can pull off another 8 miles out of them ? thats how much i figure i may need to make it over and back - but i dont want to get down to the bottom and chair then feels sluggish - sloppy - no power etc, - i had a good dozen hills i had to go over up and down etc, - i take a hit with those hills - no way around them -

i may not chance it even its its doable - too close for comfort - but the full pack - that may be just fine - and still have left over - i can try it again one day - but its a LONG Trip - now that i know its doable - i may just take the bus there only one way close to 177 street - and then just cross over to the west side and over the GWB - - then i know for sure i make it back home with left over juice

[Burgerman]

Beeing as you used 55Ah to cover 22 miles, and your lithium pack in the other chair is double that capacity and you can use all of it, you will get 44 miles. Plus another 15 from your addon... So about 60 miles total.

[expresso]

Beeing as you used 55Ah to cover 22 miles, and your lithium pack in the other chair is double that capacity and you can use all of it, you will get 44 miles. Plus another 15 from your addon... So about 60 miles total.

that would work for sure - i did another ride yesterday - i though it would end up being more than 22 - but turned out to be about the same - chair felt fine at the end - it does seem to slow down a bit - sometimes - maybe just me - but also could be thermal roll back of the motors - cant say for sure - i know i can adjust that - but for now will leave it alone -

now that i can ride for 4 hours nonstop - its my hand that bothers me holding the joystick full speed -

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... yVv9O0unm8 -

[Burgerman]

After 3 hours or so, when hand hurts, continuous use, your lead battery voltage drops temporarily, and your lithium has given its power up. So take a rest for an hour, eat a meal, read a paper, feed the ducks!

Because your wrist/hand will recover.
More importantly your lead battery will recover some of its power (and lights) too! And have more ACTUAL Ah to give to you later on. You wont have this issue with the lithium only pack, in the otherchair, as it has no peukert value to worry about. It just does exactly what it says it will.

The reason it happens is that for the first 2 hours you only take power from the lithium battery. Because its VOLTAGE remains above the full level of your gel battery. Only when that voltage drops to around 25.7 do you begin to take *some* from the lead. So only after say 2 hours driving at 6mph you are discharging the lead heavily.

That means you are taking most of its power in the last 1 to 2 hour time period. Remember your battery meter said EMPTY when you had 50% left based on the measured voltage? And it had already had time to increase a bit after you got home and had time to measure it?

I know you dont want to, but please LOOK at the chart C on page 4. CAREFULY. http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/MK2.pdf

See the discharge curve at your 50% capacity, and 1 to 3 hours? What is the voltage? Yep! Its about 12. (thats 24V in a chair). Thats where the red lights on your chair. come on. If you sit for say 4 hours, your voltage will recover to the lines above it. Thats a full set of battery lights. The speed you discharge the battery affects the voltage and so also your battery meter lights. That meter only really tells you how fast you discharged the lead. Not what is left!!!

The chair may even stop. That doesent mean its empty. It means the lead brick is out of breath. And the chair thinks its dead, Give it a rest, and walk home rather than running and it will be fine. After all your lead battery was still HALF FULL when yu measured it. Lead batteries behave like an unfit overweight geriatric. They dont like running.

I dont know how else to put it. Your battery meter tells you only that the chairs battery is out of breath!!! MKs get out of breath much faster than Odyssey!

[expresso]

i understand - even if you rest for 30 mins - get all the greens back - dosnt mean anything - once you start moving again - they drop off right away anyway - good to know - can rest and walk it home if anything - but that all depends how far you are from home and how many more hills you have to get over to get home - thats where the problem is - -

i know for sure 20 miles is fine and can make it up hills - slower but makes it - once i start going deeper discharge - then the hills may stop it dead - 22 miles is my record so far - and i cant complain for a ADD ON -

this is something everyone can do easily - and not worry about it - but most may want to do it once they know what i can do with it - but then theres the BMS issues with them - they may want to just use dumb charger - so means BMS -
which i know now - not the way to go -

but if its the only way - then better than nothing - they have to accept a half life of the Cells in return of the BMS -plus charging not the best - but will work like you said BM

there choice - i dont think others will do it because of the money to get the Cells etc, - and PL 8 - PSU - but hey - most dont do 22 miles anyway - so they will just complain and stay with in there limits of 8 miles on lead - haha - or 12 miles maybe

the most i got out of mines was 16 miles - i think with the PC 1500 when brand new -

by the way i finished up the cables wires for the full pack - today - very tired - had a hard time with the charge cable again - wasnt my night yesterday - i should have not done it - but i did - havnt tested it yet -

will test soon - will post on the other section