New Chair

[Burgerman]

When sunrise get their act together and do the same in the US as they have in the UK and in the EU, you will have a choice of:

Proper Rear drive chairs below:
Q100 R Very basic rear drive base very compact and narrow no fancy seating options.
Q200 R similar but a little better... Fatter tyres and drive wheels. 100 more expensive. Less compact.

Q500 R Low spec version of the Q700 with no front suspension, but all good options are available as below. At higher cost. Base ones are 2 pole.
Q700 R Like mine. With every option possible, ONLY 4 pole, 120A R-net, Advanced Joystick, switch controls for seating, 4 wheel suspension, grp24, gyro on the cheapest models...

And
V4 magic mobility.

And
YouQ HD rear drive. Or for Bariatric.

They just have not done so yet. I have no idea why.
Invacare have also got a bunch of rear drive chairs.

******************
After some research Sunrise is owned by Nordic Capital. So Norway? Actually many shareholders. And its head office is in Germany. Who are easy to communicate with and speak good english. I have tried this! They manufacture in germany for complex rehab chairs, which is mostly assembly of bought i parts and buy parts and assemble into non complex rehab chairs in germany, UK and many other countries encluding in the east and the US.

[expresso]

yes i know - i asked about that - all i get is FDA approval here is harder than over there - but i dont believe anything they say any more

after they told i couldnt get the fancy CJSM2 - i coudnt get black tires on my chair - i couldnt get Rnet 120 on 4 pole slower motors - 6.5mph - not really slow - avg basic standard speed

all the top experts there are saying that - yet they have all those things on all there other chairs - every other chair uses Rnet 120 with CJSM2 and 6mph motors also -

so once they talk bullshit - i cant believe anything else they say -

we wont get all those chairs you have there here - i am willing to bet money on it - they want to just sell MWD and FWD - why are they pushing that on us - have no idea - in the end the only RWD choice here will be the bounder - i dont see them going MWD or FWD ever

but i have one - i really done want two of them - for me the only other choice is the V4 RWD here - if its still around when i am ready for another chair - and i hope i can still get parts for my two sunrise chairs - unless they keep the 646 in there line up - same parts as 636

[Burgerman]

we wont get all those chairs you have there here - i am willing to bet money on it - they want to just sell MWD and FWD

If they can sell the V4 or as you renamed it V6 REAR DRIVE, and Bounder REAR DRIVE then theres absolutely no reason they cannot also sell all the REAR DRIVE chairs they sell here. Every company. Not just sunrise. So there MUST be a reason.

Your FDA doesent apply here at all - why would it we dont live in america. Maybe its expensive to get FDA approval. And so they only do it for the most popular mid drives or front drives. Same with your tyres, they cant supply black as its a chair from yesteryear, when it was FDA aproved with the grey ones.

So adding black tyres breaks your daft regulations. And so on. It seems that the mass of legislation, and costs associated with it, may be why you have no choice other than old rear drive models. I find it hard to believe that as a country with 350 million people they have such limited choice. Thats compared to 65 million here and 400 million in the EU now we escaped that extortion racket, socialist overbearing useless organisation.

Bear with me here! Theres a point. Did I mention that after brexit, we are OUT of the EU and all their overbearing super slow regulations and laws. So while there are riots in 5 different EU countries on the news protesting about yet another lockdown starting, because of a huge rise in covid 19 overpowering hospitals. Caused by an unbelievably useless slow vaccine rollout accross the EU, we (and most of the other NON EU countries in Europe) now have 71% of the population vaccinated. And are rapidly unlocking. The pubs and businesses are now opened up. People are out and about shopping and partying. Huge activity in the pub across the road last night. We are now above the heard immunity point. Not that its relevant here. And here is the point. Except to show exactly what happens when you dont have to suffer overbearing centrally planned LEGISLATION and regulation. Its the same thing. With the same result.

I might add that this may be the reason that while the BASE chair price is similar in the UK, to the US the price. But all the added options prices are simply HUGE in the US compared to here. All those options were subject to the same FDA bullshit testing and legislation including the cost of doing so seperately. Reflected in what you pay.

[expresso]

i agree - but dont think black tires are an FDA thing - since they use them on all there chairs - just not mines - stupid

anyway - there is no reason i believe that they cant get those chairs here - yes FDA here is stricter to get approval of things - so maybe they dont want to bother with more chairs to get approved -

i know bounder had a hard time getting there new chairs approved for speed - they had to fight to get 8.5 mph as an option - now thats slow compared to what bounder was all about - there were all about there top speed 12mph but times change and they need to stay afloat - in order to do that - they had to get on the FDA insurance wagon in order to get more sales

so they offer 6mph and high speed 8.5mph - i guess 8.5 mph is the limit for the FDA - even sunrise has 8.5 they had that for years - no other brand had speed close to that -- maybe the F5 and older Street model - 7.5mph - all those higher speeds put them in a group 4 bracket which is then another problem to get covered

very few - get them covered - its hit or miss - do it and see - then appeal - then go to court and see - if the vendor even wants to start an order - they control us - one way or another -

they blame the clinics and vendors - i was told they dont RX the RWD chairs much - clinics dont offer them to users - dont stock them etc, and therefore companies dont make them - thats coming from Permobil - full of shit - - if you dont make them and dont offer them - how will the users get them

[Burgerman]

agree - but dont think black tires are an FDA thing - since they use them on all there chairs - just not mines - stupid

When a chair is approved by your FDA it is the full chair. All of it. That includes all the parts in the parts book. Inc the tyres that they approved it with. So yes if approved as a chair with grey tyres, or a 90A R-Net or whatever than thats ALL they can legally sell it with.

The real solution here is to get chairs, beds, and a number of other things OUT of the hands of the FDA. Its rediculous.
And again, classes, speeds, groups, is all gov LEGISLATION. Get rid of it! All of these things prevent a proper free market operating and massively distorts choice and pricing.

They control us

Again your legislation, your insurers, your government, your FDA. I know you hate and dont understand politics but if YOU dont make a stand and kick up a fuss, who will? Get a group together and go lobby your "rulers" as they are supposed to work for YOU.

Thats why I now get a cheque instead to do my own thing. Every 3 years. Because I didnt sit there and accept the socialist incompetant NHS status quo.

[expresso]

i am not sure what the FDA does for the chairs - i dont think its an item per item approval - its more of a make sure its Safe overall - how they do that - who knows - they may have a checklist they have to pass to get approved -

the only thing i can think of is - Sunrise never updates there order forms - etc, - they update all the other chairs - with black tires different options

but never on the RWD chairs - so what that means is - they will have the rim for my chair which is different bolt pattern hub than the other chairs - they have the rims with tires mounted already - they dont do the work of mixing and matching - they can - but they wont - and they didnt

so if its not already offered on the order form - they wont do it - i got lucky with the CSJM2 - not on the order form and was told no it wont work on my chair - and of course it does and they know it does but wont say it - i did get that -

same with Rnet 120A - they are set aside for the 646 chair with high speed motors only - or my chair with high speed motor package - only way to get Rnet 120 or else you get the EL 90 - all bullshit - we know it works just fine with either motor - they are the same 4 pole motors

[Burgerman]

When they were trying to get FDA approval for the iBot 3000 many years ago I was asked to test and report by a david coates who worked for JJ company. One of the things I was talking about with him was that the front caster tyres were too square, very heavily loaded and so the followed the edges of paving slabs or joints and so they needed a better shaped tyre. I was reliably informed that they could not do so for the very reasons I stated already. It took 2 years plus to get approval and he said if they changed ANY of the spec, including tyres they would have to resubmit it and delay everything while many tests were redone. So no you are wrong! They test a chair COMPLETE and then it gets certified AS SUPPLIED ecactly. Its a nightmare of legislation. For the same reason the OEM manufacturer offers tyres in each chairs parts catalog. Even bolts. Per CHAIR not just a bunch of tyre options for every chair they make.

If you change even the recommeded tyre pressures in the manual, they have to retest for stability, wear rates, range, performance, and even destructability in a crash, and durability with a huge steel pendulum thingy.

So that if they wanted to change anything on that iBot it had to wait until that origial design chair went to market. And only then re-submit. And because of cost and time involved in that they made a lot of small changes at once. Hence iBot 4000. So that is almost definitely why your chair only comes with the tyres it does.

[expresso]

Ok i can see that happening -

if you submit one thing - change it - have to resubmit -


still stupid to say it cant be done or dosnt work - etc, - just say the truth - and they can sell the black tire alone - which they could have done - it has a part number - the vendor was fine with that - just send the chair as you can - grey tires and send a set of black tires also they have for sale with a part number
which i supplied to them


but they did give me the CJSM2 - if that was the case 100% as you say - they couldnt - since its not on the order form or FDA approved for that chair

they just made it harder than it needs to be and it could have been done - separate part number for the tires alone - now the Rnet - who knows - maybe they have the 120A setup in the settings different than the El 90 for the slower motors - and dont have Rnet 120 set up for the slower motors - i was told it cant even be picked as an option on the computer when they configure the chair so they cant complete the order without picking the correct PM - if you pick high speed motors - then you get the option for the Rnet 120 A which is required anyway for those motors - but not for the slower

its like changing a arm pad - dosnt need to be FDA approved - the Rnet it maybe set up that way - and JS - but again i got the JS - so how did they do that ?

[Burgerman]

Its all caused by your system. YOUR government. Your insurer system and its rules, your FDA and the only way to fix it is to lobby your governments, local councillors, etc. Get a huge group together on facegramtubeinstatwit or whatever and DO SOMETHING about it!

I was told by the NHS and by dozens of people including my local politician that there was no way in hell I would get them to give me a cheque instead of a crap chair every 3 years. But I dont care what others say or think. And all the experts were wrong! As per usual.

[expresso]

i cant even install a BT inside the charger and you want me to go to the Gov. to change this


besides i am the only one who feels this way - i never hear anyone else complain that has a chair - they love there chairs RWD MWD - one person i know goes about 5mph - i asked isnt that too slow - he agrees - so why did you get it or say you want a faster one - its ok i get used to it -

what can you say to someone like that - nothing - it is what it is

we needed someone like You BM --- and i mean this for real - someone like you that started this site and it became the go too for facts - smart users - etc, without this site - i dont think i would have black tires or lithium - etc,

this is the movement for us - but its not going to change up there on top - its too screwed up - by the way - i just ordered new road tires for another set of rims i will put them on - spare set - i am sure once i wear out the ones on the chair this summer - those are going on next - just raise the fender with few washers

but this time i went with a 90/90 tire - want to see how they fit the rims - better i am sure - just a bit thinner width - i wanted to try them at least once - i also have another set mounted with new 350-8 tires also - so i can swap if needed or wanted

[Burgerman]

what can you say to someone like that - nothing - it is what it is

Manufactrers, governments, insurers, councils, etc will give you what THEY want (and I mean no choice, one size fits all, having to fight courts, etc) if you dont TELL THEM what you want.

A 90mm tyre is 3.55 inches in that awful old money in WIDTH.
a 90/90 tyre is 90% of its width tall.

So its 3.2 inches tall. That means 3.2" + 8"rim + 3.2" = a 14.4 inch diameter. The same as a stock wheel/tyre.

That makes it the same width as your 3.50 tyres. And the same diameter as a wheelchair stock 3.00 x 8 tyres. Thats why I suggested it years ago.
But if your rim is too narrow it will make it too rounded and narrower than 3.55 inches.

But yes most people are like

[LROBBINS]

I will avoid a long tirade, but do want to point out that, except for major departures from "normal" such as the iBot chair, the FDA actually doesn't do any testing of chairs at all, nor of almost any medical devices, nor do they require any particular test results from the manufacturer (though they may require UL listing and FCC compliance for electrical and electronic components). Almost all medical devices are approved on the basis of being "essentially similar" to devices already on the market, and the rest of the FDA requirements are paper work requirements: documentation that you have a tracking system for parts, for design changes, that you have a Good Manufacturing Practices policy, that you report in-field failures (though there's plenty of non-compliance on that score). You want to market a new design for a stent, or for an artificial hip? No clinical testing required - just say it's "essentially similar" to an older design. And this grandfathering can go on for multiple generations of prior models. Once in a while a company finishes in deep doo doo, but only after people are injured, and sometimes not even then until the company (e.g. Invacare) fails to comply with FDA ordered corrections. It's even worse than FAA oversight of Boeing on the 737 Max.

The FDA does a much better, though far from perfect, oversight of drugs, but for devices the system sucks. It's not bureaucratic control of industry, but industry control of bureaucracy. Of course, the mfrs have a vested interest telling us that their own idiocies are the fault of the FDA, but that's BS. People who don't try to "pass the buck" seem to be rather scarce.

[Burgerman]

Well this was definitely true with the iBot. But as you say, its maybe exceptional, balances, can fall down fire escapes etc. I discussed at length with the guy who was setting up independence technology europe here in my house! They had a hell of a time trying to get it approved by the FDA.

But a quick look at the FDA site shows you are correct. At least on established manufacturers with similar products.

So how to change the obviously restrictive system? And what is the cause of it?

WHy so hard to get a rear drive chair? Or simple black tyres?

[expresso]

what can you say to someone like that - nothing - it is what it is

Manufactrers, governments, insurers, councils, etc will give you what THEY want (and I mean no choice, one size fits all, having to fight courts, etc) if you dont TELL THEM what you want.

A 90mm tyre is 3.55 inches in that awful old money in WIDTH.
a 90/90 tyre is 90% of its width tall.

So its 3.2 inches tall. That means 3.2" + 8"rim + 3.2" = a 14.4 inch diameter. The same as a stock wheel/tyre.

That makes it the same width as your 3.50 tyres. And the same diameter as a wheelchair stock 3.00 x 8 tyres. Thats why I suggested it years ago.
But if your rim is too narrow it will make it too rounded and narrower than 3.55 inches.

But yes most people are like

https://lionparts.com/products/bridgest ... 6730854479

this is what i ordered - i seen it at other places as a 90/90 - here is 300-8 - same tire - i bet it will be taller OD than stock tire


https://www.bikebandit.com/tires-tubes/ ... ire/p/3373


shows it as a 90/90 - same tire -

[expresso]

what is that Sheep.exe file ?


good question - no experts can give you an answer

[Burgerman]

Its a sheep! Put it on your desktop. And click it.

[Burgerman]

Its a sheep! Put it on your desktop. And click it.

It shows it as a 3.00 x 8 tyre on one site, same EXACT size as a stock tyre.

It shows a DIFFERENT tyre, as 90/90 because its a different sized tyre. Its 3.5 wide instead of 3. And its still the same diameter as a stock 3.00 x 8 tyre. So you wont need any washers with either.

The 90/90 one needs a rim that is half inch to 3/4 inch wider.Or it will be pinched and look narrower than it is.

[expresso]

but its the same tire - i dont believe its any different size between those

its just the way they advertise it - there is only one tire they make that size 8 inch - some show it as a 90/90 - and some show it as a 300-8 -

means nothing because its the same size tire -

very very few tires for 8 inch rims - scooter tires here - over there - in other countries where scooters are the main way to travel - there are many brands of the size

here - this is it

i got the one that shows 300-8 - i spoke to them - very helpful so i ordered from them

i was going to get the 90/90 one - but i really dont think its any different in size at all - could even be a misprint -

if you go to the manufactor site - there is only one tire - one size

[expresso]

its a sheep walking on my desktop haha


so you think its actually the same tire just wider ? if thats true - that sucks - i would have taken it - i really believed and still do - that its not different at all - no way for me to confirm that unless buying another set of 90/90 to compare

[Burgerman]

No its a DIFFERENT SIZE!

The 90/90 ine is a full half inch wider. And is the SAME diameter as the stock one.

75/100 would be the same as a 3.00 tyre.

Or just 75 x 8.

The 90/90 tyre is a LOW PROFILE tyre. As in wider than it is tall. It has a 90% profile. Making it 14.2 diameter instead of your 3.50 x 8 tyres, at 15 diameter. Or 3.00 x 8 at 14 diameter. TWO DIFFERENT TYRES and TWO DIFFERENT SIZES.

What you ordered is same as the grey ones you have fitted, and not a strong tyre.

[expresso]

https://www.bridgestone.com/products/mo ... ail/pr041/

its this tire i ordered - 8 inch first one

thats the only one they make in a 8 inch size - thats why i believe its a typo i could be wrong

[Burgerman]

Its possible its a typo. In which case people will just return them!

But a 90/90-8 tyre is actually waht you want. But an oddball size which means it could be a typo. As its half inch wider than stock and not bigger diameter.

Actually what you REALLY want is a wider rim. Then you can use a 100 or 110 tyre, like the 110/80-8 or the 120/70-8 ones that I use.

[expresso]

oh well too late now - i can try to cancel the order tomorrow but i really dont think its two different tires

and i cant find NO other 90/90 tire at all - so its strange that it shows that there -

i may not be able to cancel either way now - too late to call them - they are closed

i think its a typo -

[Burgerman]

Well it is two different sized tyres! Weather its real or not and not due to some numpty with no clue is another matter.

Might well be. How is your sheep doing?

[expresso]

Its possible its a typo. In which case people will just return them!

But a 90/90-8 tyre is actually waht you want. But an oddball size which means it could be a typo. As its half inch wider than stock and not bigger diameter.

Actually what you REALLY want is a wider rim. Then you can use a 100 or 110 tyre, like the 110/80-8 or the 120/70-8 ones that I use.

yes i agree - wider rim would be nice like what you did to your rims - added the spacer between the two halves -

i am not able to do that - i am fine with the 350-8 tire i have on the other chair - i have another set of those on rims as a spare - they lifted the chair rear and gave me some caster issues which are resolved now - worked it out

but with this new tire - if it is the same OD as original - means i be fine with the casters - i will know from using the stock tire first this summer - then going to the new tires

[expresso]

[quote="Burgerman"]Well it is two different sized tyres! Weather its real or not and not due to some numpty with no clue is another matter.

Might well be. How is your sheep doing?[/quote}



yes its two different sizes for sure - if in fact thats correct - i feel its not - its the only tire they make in a 8 inch rim - so would be very strange to make the same tire in two different sizes - which are very minor difference overall -

i called to ask because how its stated as front / rear tire - that got me a bit confused - i was told its the same size both front and rear - since i got a set - i hope thats correct - and i dont end up one tire different size than the other -

thats one thing i got confused - even on the other site say the same thing - front / rear - and i wont let me order 2 of the same - 1 front and 1 rear - same site that shows it as 90/90 both front or rear -- makes me believe its a typo more

sheep is walking back and forth - but my computer did just crash - after i installed it - gave me a registry error ?

[Burgerman]

I have 3 wandering about for a week. No crashes. So I doubt its anything to do with the sheep.

[expresso]

i could have more walking around - how ?


i remember a while back here some user who popped on and starting getting involved and then disappeared -- i believe it was a girl user - she had a MWD chair and installed those same tires i believe - and she said it was bigger OD than stock because her front and rear wheels were off the ground after installing them

on a MWD chair - i dont mind if it does lift it a bit - i see - would help the anti tipper issues - even though it seems better with the 3 inch wheel now

never mind - i got a few walking around now also

[Burgerman]

.

[expresso]

how do you get them to stay on top also

i went to place a sheep on top - it fell down free falling