Q700R took pics and details

[Burgerman]

Took some pics in harsh horrid light. Should anyone be interested. Its covered in dust. The chair it replaces, that is better in many ways, is the Salsa here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7455&start=600#p122818 Read and scroll to compare!

Q700R
Stock chair has default options:
4 pole 6mph motors (8mph has less torque and I dont like that). 120A R-net, lights, advanced colour joystick CJSM2, gyro (not needed or wanted - why fit that to a rear drive? So is disabled in programming).

Also has user options: Seat lift, tilt, recline, and importantly power centre mount footplate in place of seperate swing away ones. As it allows the seat to move back a couple of extra inches for good CG position and shorter chair with better steering control. And narrower front end for easy access to doorways etc.
And the switches on the left arm Switch it CTRL+5. Not sure if I will retain those or not yet they get in the way and dont unplug at the arm. Meaning the removable arm cannot be removed! Single post arms specified in place of the seat back mounted ones as they wobble and are weak. Doubled up now, because the single post ones are also too flimsy... The Salsa was much better here.

Mods, inc nothing major. Details! Details REALLY matter!
- Wider rear wheels, with stronger 120/70-8 tyres. Smaller diameter 8 inch 3.00-4 caster tyres on stock rims because the caster forks are closer together on this chair than the older salsa. Meaning you need to gain any advantage you can to prevent the caster wheel/centre footplate collision. So as to be able to move the seat and CG rearwards for steer/traction/length/manoeverability and to shorten chair by 5 inches or more.
- Headrest mount has one link removed.
- Seat dump increased by 6 degrees on spacers under seat pan to keep lift at same angle. Because the larger rear and smaller front tyres tilt the chair forwards a couple of degrees. So now the lift moves you forwards as it rises for stability while keeping 4 degrees of seat "dump" when fully forwards.
- Arm uprights doubled up for strength/stability.
- Control pod too loose on that swingaway so stiffened up with rubber washers externally and excess metal sawn off... So nothing sticking down. Still 1/2 inch needs cutting off.
- CTRL+5 Switches on left arm modified mounting (cut and bolted) so they do not sit outside of arm to be wiped out...
- Programmed so it drives PROPERLY with all the usual turn acceleration and deceleration removed and compensation increased to 50mOhms etc and Gyro disabled in every profile except on whereI am experimenting to see if it can be made to help...

[Burgerman]

So... Excuse the dust! Although not sure you see it in pics.

My carer who helps me driving - has short legs that dont reach the long 20 inch cushion or footrest. And so looks uncomfortable, sort of like he is sliding off... . Also harsh direct sun makes for horrible pics.

[Burgerman]

More

[Burgerman]

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[Burgerman]

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[Burgerman]

Shortened and spaced to the right mounting bracket. CTRL+5 Switch box. To stop it sticking out wider than the arm and hitting doorways and making the chair wider. And all the long vertical parts chopped off with a hacksaw.

[Burgerman]

Swing away brackets shortened, and a stack of rubber washers at both ends that turn. That stiffen its position up so it doesent move around as you try to drive!
Still has 20mm to be chopped off the joystick mount that hangs down... So it looks like the above posts mounting. These things are around 5 inches long normally!

[Burgerman]

Things still to do.

Repaint rear wheels in satin black
Swap to 110/80 - 8 rear tyres.
Move seat back 1 inch more - needs 2 holes drilled.
Clean and polish replace steel bolts with stainless and grease them.
Cut that extra bit off the joystick mount in the photo above!
Finalise programming.
Then 200Ah lithium battery.
Fit bolt for van tiedown.


Is it better than the SALSA lightly modified chair?
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7455&start=600#p122818

Its actually not as good. It supercedes the older Salsa. But in many ways is worse.
1. The salsas seating and single post arms are rock solid and strog enough for me to lift my weight on many times a day with zero flex. Even after doubling up on the uprights, the Q700R is weaker here. But now acceptable.
2. BOTH have crap swingaways. And in both cases they are in the wrong place and wobbly and loose as stock. Equally bad in different ways. But can be fized with some work. As mine now are.
3. Q700R front caster arms are too close together. You can still benefit from a centre footrest to shorten chair, move seating back, but not so much. And that required fitting 8 inch caster tyres compared to the 10 inch ones on the salsa. So not as good here. Why do they do these things!
4. Stupid swinging rear axle suspension on the Q700R makes you feel seasick. I will bolt this up solid like the Salsa. Much better! Still has 4 wheel suspension after its bolted up solid.
5. They fit a gyro as stock on a rear drive chair. It interferes with feel, and once programmed properly drives much better without that enabled. Why do they think you need it? Because stock programming is abysmal!
6. Same motors, same control system, same seating module, same power module, as the Salsa. But its got that CTRL-5 switch box on the left arm. Its useful. And also a pain in the but and in my way all the time. Its a £700 approx extra... I still think its just in the way of everything I do. May remove that one day soon. Still not sure.
7. Salsa was harder to modify into an acceptable chair. As stock, esp with the wrong motor/controller/seating options as most have, they are terrible. But when sorted, correct options, ultimately the better chair. Easier day to day. So its up to you!

These Q700R, and the rear drive Q500R (very similar once specced up the same) are the only current rear drive rehab style sunrise chairs now offered. The Salsa now discontinued. But lots available 2nd hand. Theres also the Dietz rear drive, and the Magic Mobility rear drive (V4) chairs to consider. Everything else is worse for various reasons... I have looked! If you want a good rear drive chair, these 4 are the best options. NON are much good as stock. SMALL modifications make rubbish chairs, into very good ones if you choose options and chair carefully.

Salsa - viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7455&start=600#p122818

[Toro]

Are you still using your salsa... do you have one or two of them?

So are you changing the tires again? Any reason why?

Did you get the second set of arm brackets in your deal or buy them after?

And is your carer not vaccinated yet...noticed the mask

[Burgerman]

Vaccinated? Yes. He likes the mask. Its a wild west thing I think!

Yes the salsa is as new about 40 miles use! Its been waiting while I was stuck on bed (pressure wounds). So I have 2 new or at least almost unused chairs. All polished and ready for action. And shortly to get a 200Ah lithium pack each!

Change tyres? The 110/80 is a better fit for the 3" rims. Perfect in fact. The 120/70 tyres really need a 3.5 inch rim like the salsa viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7455&start=600#p122818
has or they are too pointed and squeezed. They look OK, see pics, but the 110/80 is a better match. Look at these, same sized 120 tyres, on the 3.5 inch rims.

Second set of arm uprights and other hardware? ££££££ myself.

[Toro]

Lol gotcha... just wondering why mask as I knew your carers had been vaccinated.

Is it weird I get excited seeing mods done on wheelchairs...lol... I think its the ability to see the possibilities that can be done.

I've got my old wheelchair that needs some serious changes... its old like 18 years but good for back up... I know no one likes quantum here but its what I have to work with as back up... a Jazzy 1121... mid wheel... another annoying trait most hate here also lol...but it's worked for me, haven't been a power user like alot of you guys here, as In Australia we live open and distant, we travel to places, so I jump in van and get there and then zip around....were as England your much closer living quarters and like yourself Burgerman you use your chair as your vehicle in alot of ways.

I plan on doing more long distant driving soon along the coast here.

[Chairman]

The Salsa is apparently still available.

[Scragger7]

My 700r should be ready in a few weeks. Biggest problem i found when demoing was the lose arm rests as i push off one when tranfering and felt like it was going to snap. Are the double uprights that much more solid Burger?

[Burgerman]

Not a perfect cure. But about 75% better. And they dont twist about... They have to be reversed too. Which is a frustrating thing to do! As you will find out. Takes at least an hour of fiddling around. And doing it wrong half a dozen times! Theres a sequence... That you have to work out the hard way. And if you have a switch box as mine had will need the same mod. See download/file.php?id=15460&mode=view
Theres JUST enough space on that arm rail for everything to fit with a squeeze.

This of course applies to every chair using the same seating system. And there are a few makes and models. Beats me how they manage to make every new model worse that the one it replaces. They weakened it in the exact ways we needed it stronger! And saved a whole 4kg on the complete 185kg chair. And narrowed it across the casters where we needed more not less space for heels with a centre footplate. And put a hinge on the rear suspension making it worse!

The Q700R is doable as a decent enough rear drive chair. And relatively all nuts and bolts rather than acksaw! The Salsa is initially much cheaper - but doesent end up that way once you add all the options you really need inc a centre power footrest. And takes more work fitting a headrest properly rather than using the stock designed (while high ) scaffolding joke. See the rear of a stock salsa! And its hard to get the seat right back without swearing and redrilling a couple of holes bigger... But once done its a better and shorter more manoeverable chair. Also a minor mod needed on the power centre footplate on one side to move the actuator inboard by half an inch. Needs a saw.

The old salsa page still exists. https://www.sunrisemedical.co.uk/powere ... s/salsa-r2
And it may be possible to buy. But its already gone from the main power wheelchair menu. https://www.sunrisemedical.co.uk/#

[Burgerman]

Also...
If you spec up the Q500R which starts way cheaper, but doesent have R-Net/4 pole etc or gyro and man other options by default. And add the same centre footplate, good 4 pole motors and 120A Rnet and the same seating options, then the cost rises to a much higher level. At this point the real difference is that you dont have the gyro (and dont need or want it and save another 325 quid) and dont have the Q700s front suspension otherwise they are pretty much the same. You may save a little but it will not be a huge difference.

But it all depends what you want. That CTRL+5 switch box thingy adds 700 to the price! Seriously. And add a £325 uneeded gyro, and a few other bits and you can save some.

Q500 R Order/prescription form http://www.sunrisedice.com/asset-bank/a ... /47339.pdf
Web page https://www.sunrisemedical.co.uk/q500r

Q700 R Order/prescription form http://www.sunrisedice.com/asset-bank/a ... /63051.pdf
Web page https://www.sunrisemedical.co.uk/powere ... -sedeo-pro

[Burgerman]

Also note that the CJSM2 joystick screen is visible even here and its not at full brightness an covered in dust. Outdoors in bright sun.

download/file.php?id=15459&mode=view

[Toro]

Burgerman any chance in getting a picture of both chairs side by side?

[Burgerman]

Yes. But not for a day or two! But the salsa pics are here. PLEASE read the first post here viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7455&start=600#p122818 And then scroll down.

Might put these on it yet...

[Burgerman]

For completeness... Storm 4 Exlore with fat tyres too.

These are the 110/80 tyres on rims that I widened to 3 inches.

110 tyres look better than 120 tyres do on a 3 inch rim. And they actually appear wider! And, they present much more rubber to the road. So wear, grip, better too. These are the tyres I am going to fit to the 3 inch rims on the R700R if I dont fit the complete rims/120 tyres above!

[Burgerman]

For comparison. Above chair as stock. OEM Stock 3.00 x 8 tyres...

They look very sad. Like a babies pram.

Storm 4 Explore :

Salsa... INSTITUTIONALISED

Salsa PIMPED

Q700 stock before centre footplate, with grey coloured bits, etc - At least they were black... And skinny and rock hard ride.

With wider rims/tyres mudguards removed. centre footplate, etc.

[Toro]

Those leg rests on the Q700 are terrible... who the hell designed them.

Have you used the same stock rims for the Q700?

Would those wheels and tyres fit a Magic Mobility V4?

How does the Storm compare to the salsa and q700 for comfort and drive? Which do you like best out of the 3?

[Burgerman]

Those leg rests on the Q700 are terrible... who the hell designed them.

I agree. Sunrise. Thats not the real issue. ALL current rear drive powerchairs are sold by default with swing away foortrests. Since the caster wheel rotates to face the opposite way as you manoever then they force your feet to be way too far forwards so your heels dont hit the tyres. That in turn forces the seating to be installed about 4 inches too far forwards. So the front casters take more weight than the drive wheels. It makes the whole chair(s) long. And steered from behind your ass. Like an oil tanker. They have no traction on grass, or lift a REAR wheel if the ground or top of a ramp means the surface is uneven. That means the wheels that steer you, cant. Also because of the mass of you sat over the casters the chairs dont zero turn, or do so with a lot of hesitation. So the steer very badly. And this is why there is a mid drive craze... Because all stock rear drive chairs drive CRAP and are 100 yards long!

A CENTRE footrest allows your heels to go back between the front wheels. Meaning you can shift the seat (and the chairs CG) back. Now its got no corners. Steers lightly. Is 4 inches shorter. Has 60/40 better rear/front weight bias. So its better for traction, better steering, and shorter and turns in place under your backside. A massive gain. Which chairs allow this the best, the ones with the widest front caster gap! So thats:

1. BM 1, 2 and 3.
2. Salsa R2
3. close second - Storm 4 Xplore
4. Q700R - close together.

Have you used the same stock rims for the Q700?

Not sure I understand the question. To make up for the close together castors on the Q700R I fitted small diameter but still wide 8" 3.00 x 4 smooth turf tyres on the front. It gains you an inch. They are tough.
I replaced the rear tyres (3.00 x 8 mobility tyres) with 120/70 - 8 strong 70mph rated scooter tyres. And to do so I needed to WIDEN the stock rim. So I took a JIVE wheel apart, as you do, and used only the rear "ring" as a spacer. It goes between the two halves of the stock Q700 wheel. It makes it a 3 inch wide (3J) rim. Up from the stock 1.75". I did this because I had them delivered for free with my Q700R chair I asked nicely! And because it looked like it would fit! A calculated guessI had to remove the lip that retains the tyre first obviously. A 12v jigsaw... A powered flap wheel. And a rattlecan.

Would those wheels and tyres fit a Magic Mobility V4?

Are you refering to the Salsa? viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7455&start=600#p122818 The Q700R? The Brushless Storm 4 xplore, my BM2 and 3 chairs? Or the ones on my bed in the pic above?

I doubt any will just fit. They dont fit any of my own chairs until I make them! Its just mind over metal . I tell it what to do, it does it.

How does the Storm compare to the salsa and q700 for comfort and drive? Which do you like best out of the 3?

Ride? The storm first. Salsa 2nd. The Q700R would be better than the salsa but its got a stupid marketing suspension "beam" on the rear that does nothing useful. Makes the chair feel like it wants to fall over. Or that would be equal to the salsa. It will get 2 bolts soon. And its beam "spirit level technology" will be locked up forever leaving normal 4 wheel suspension. The salsa only has rear wheel suspension but has fat 3.00 x 4 10 inch casters... So swings and roundabouts.

But...
The storm had useless torqueless brushless motors and so was sent back to meet its maker with a refund. Bad by design. Takes 190 Battery amps to turn in place EMPTY. And refuses to do so with 20 stone on board after the 2nd or 3rd time. Shuts down. So useless to any grown adult. You might get away with it if you are a ballerina.

The salsa is crapily put together in many ways as stock and takes a lot of tidying up and work to make into a good chair than the Q700R. Nothing major but harder and needs a little fabrication, and hacksaw. The rear headrest mounting for e.g. And the stock seat backs are abysmal. Get aftermarket or slingback. And a saw.

[Toro]

When you go tilt back on the salsa and the q700 now and not elevated, does it tip backwards... I mean now that you positioned the sitting position back further for better c/g?

[Burgerman]

Tilt alone on both is OK.
With recline too then its different. Q700 isnt an issue but it still scares me! Salsa is a bit close to tippy... But if you extend legs, which are heavy then its OK. I wouldnt feel safe doing recline and tilt with seat elevator up as well on the salsa! I do do it, but only when theres a bed, or the bar behind me. It takes a gentle push to make it go...

So to fix on the salsa I could do what I did on the Q700. Instead of setting the whole lift/tilt module to say 6 degrees dump, I set it at zero. Now I use larger rear tyres, and smaller front tyres on the Q700 so that the whole chair/seat module leans forwards about a degree or so. On the salsa you can set it minus 1 or 2 degrees. Now in both cases the lift module moves you forwards instead of backwards in inch as you get higher. This is why the Q700 is more stable whe lifted. Now you need to fit spacers under the 4 seat mounting bolts. 2 small ones at the rear. 2x 40mm ones at the front to restore seat dump and actually increase it a little.

This does nothing when you are seated low. But theres less risk if it tips. Its not as if I havent fell out a few times... But I dare not do that while high.

[Toro]

Lol I don't understand why you tilt elevatored in the first place... that's crazy lol... do you tilt at the bar, I tend to wander over to a space that not busy, out of the way and with room.

[Burgerman]

Because you can! Not normally.