Frontier V4

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Frontier V4

Postby DannyB » 04 May 2021, 18:06

Traded in my Meyra Optimus and bought a lightly used Frontier V4 (cost an arm and a leg!) after spending hours reading this forum. It came with new MKs, which I'll use until next year before upgrading to lithium LiPo4s. Could someone please direct me to a good thread on which drop-in lithiums to get?

I know building my own batteries would be best but I don't want to learn how to do it even if I could acquire the knowledge, to be honest. Life is too short! Respect to all the experts on here but I'd rather stay an innocent amateur! :lol:

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Re: Frontier V4

Postby Burgerman » 04 May 2021, 18:09

Ther are NO drop in lithiums that will work properly/reliably, that actually give you the benefits of having lithium, or that make any sort of financial sense.

You will need to do a little work and fit 8x seperate 200Ah cells.
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Re: Frontier V4

Postby DannyB » 04 May 2021, 19:11

Are there any that don't make financial sense?

I've heard Relion lithiums are good, though seriously pricey?
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Re: Frontier V4

Postby steves1977uk » 04 May 2021, 19:25

Don't bother with drop-in replacements, for various reasons mentioned on this forum elsewhere. It's not a simple plug'n'play swap, unless you want to get stranded when the BMS cuts power under load.

It's best to learn how to build your own Lithium pack and look after the cells with a PL8. A little knowledge goes a long way! :thumbup:

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Re: Frontier V4

Postby Burgerman » 04 May 2021, 20:02

The reliums will take you maybe 35/40% further than lead. And then run out 100% stop as the first cell suddenly drops its voltage.

So lets say you can get 15 miles from lead. You might get 15 + (35 to) 40% = 21 miles from drop in replacements. Best not to do that though. They are the same Ah capacity as your lead battery. But you risk a sudden stop. And fully discharging them will mean a short battery life. So you are getting very little of the lithium advantage of long lifespan and great range increases. What you will get instead is potential BMS problems where you try to climb a curb and the BMS chops off all power. Or it does so as you zero turn. Or as you go up a ramp. And BMS freuqently fail or inadequately balance the battery. So you pay a great deal for unreliability, potential for fire, little in terms of extra range at great expense. In fact if you want them to last and dont run them dead you probably only gain a couple of miles in range too.

On the other hand, if you were to fit the 200Ah cells that we generally do here now. You will increase range from 15 to approx 60 miles. Because these cells are 3x the capacity of the drop in ones. Thats a 4 fold increase over lead at least It also means that you are working each cell only 1/4 as hard. So one of the things that kills lithium cells, high currentdraw is removed. And because you now have 60 mile range, you might never discharge them more than half (a real 30 miles) and so the low depth of discharge means maybe 10k cycles. And non of the BMS and current draw issues, and range anxiety a thing of the past.
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Re: Frontier V4

Postby DannyB » 04 May 2021, 21:39

Thanks. Well I've got a year or so to learn how to build my own batteries. Best get reading then! ;)
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Re: Frontier V4

Postby DannyB » 04 May 2021, 22:09

Granted that the price of this battery is astronomical, just out of interest, are all the attached claims not credible?

https://tinyurl.com/j54yhnfe
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Re: Frontier V4

Postby steves1977uk » 04 May 2021, 22:45

2 of them is double the price and half the capacity of 8x200Ah cells, not to mention the BMS which will cause issues. Not worth it IMO.

Don't forget the batteries are wired in series, so you'd get 24v 100Ah in total with those Pilonovel ones. DIY is much better since you can fit more Ah in the same space and at half the cost.

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Re: Frontier V4

Postby Burgerman » 04 May 2021, 22:45

That one would work, Subject to the BMS keeping working, and balancing properly (the dont) and give 2x the range of lead if you ran it dangerously low. You would still likely have reliability issues down the line and also get nowhere near the advertised cycle life. But you would also need to saw off about 4 inches to get it to fit a powerchair. And if that would fit, you could get330Ah of LiFePO4 in doing it properly... And have none of the problems, 6x the range, and less cost.
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Re: Frontier V4

Postby DannyB » 05 May 2021, 14:14

OK OK, I get the message. :lol:

Points well taken, thank you. :worship
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Re: Frontier V4

Postby DannyB » 05 May 2021, 14:29

Is anyone on here making these lithium batteries and taking a profit on top? Obviously without the usual shop-type guarantees etc.
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Re: Frontier V4

Postby daveonwheels » 05 May 2021, 14:34

No.We arent.
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Re: Frontier V4

Postby DannyB » 05 May 2021, 15:05

daveonwheels wrote:No.We arent.
OK. Not trying to get anyone in trouble. Just I know my limitations.
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Re: Frontier V4

Postby rickystyx » 05 May 2021, 15:15

DannyB wrote:Is anyone on here making these lithium batteries and taking a profit on top? Obviously without the usual shop-type guarantees etc.

If someone makes these for you and a connection goes wrong then you won't have a clue how to check it out and fix it. In reality it is a steep learning curve but follow the instructions on here and you or anyone who can hold a soldering iron and a multi-meter can make these batteries - the difference is when a connection goes a bit odd you will know what to look for and where to look because you will know what is involved. No chair / scooter dealer will take on fixing it so you need to understand what you have got. The folks on here are incredibly helpful and all the information is there for you - it looks intimidating but it isn't rocket science (unless you want to know all about the presets etc but I for one leave that to BM and people that way inclined) It is lifechanging to make this conversion - you don't end up not going places because you might run out of battery.
Read up on the forum, ask questions and you will get all the help you need.
I did - and I am indebted to BM and all the other knowledgeable folk on here who have helped me - I will never go back to lead.
Ricky
ottobock b400 150Ah lifepo4
Swiss-trac manual chair add on with 30Ah Lifepo4 (want more 15Ah headway cells )
Meyra Optimus (PRIME)2 150Ah lifepo4 :0)
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Re: Frontier V4

Postby DannyB » 05 May 2021, 16:40

rickystyx wrote:
DannyB wrote:Is anyone on here making these lithium batteries and taking a profit on top? Obviously without the usual shop-type guarantees etc.

If someone makes these for you and a connection goes wrong then you won't have a clue how to check it out and fix it. In reality it is a steep learning curve but follow the instructions on here and you or anyone who can hold a soldering iron and a multi-meter can make these batteries - the difference is when a connection goes a bit odd you will know what to look for and where to look because you will know what is involved. No chair / scooter dealer will take on fixing it so you need to understand what you have got. The folks on here are incredibly helpful and all the information is there for you - it looks intimidating but it isn't rocket science (unless you want to know all about the presets etc but I for one leave that to BM and people that way inclined) It is lifechanging to make this conversion - you don't end up not going places because you might run out of battery.
Read up on the forum, ask questions and you will get all the help you need.
I did - and I am indebted to BM and all the other knowledgeable folk on here who have helped me - I will never go back to lead.
Ricky
Thanks Ricky. I'll give it a try although my understanding of electrics so far hasn't gone beyond the wiring diagram on a 1950s Morris Minor. :oops:

I don't know about soldering irons. I did gas welding back in the days when I could crawl under a car...
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Re: Frontier V4

Postby Arima » 05 May 2021, 16:58

daveonwheels wrote:No.We arent.

Who is "We"? What are you not doing?

DannyB wrote:I'll give it a try although my understanding of electrics so far hasn't gone beyond the wiring diagram on a 1950s Morris Minor.


Not to make things more complicated but I would want to fully understand how to charge whatever lithium setup you decide to use. Do you have a pl8?
Thxs
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Re: Frontier V4

Postby ICEUK » 05 May 2021, 17:20

I dont see the harm in building a pack for someone providing they learn or know how to look after the pack and what look out for.

Building a pack isnt for everyone, it seems simple but its not.
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Re: Frontier V4

Postby DannyB » 05 May 2021, 18:43

Arima wrote:
daveonwheels wrote:No.We arent.

Who is "We"? What are you not doing?

DannyB wrote:I'll give it a try although my understanding of electrics so far hasn't gone beyond the wiring diagram on a 1950s Morris Minor.


Not to make things more complicated but I would want to fully understand how to charge whatever lithium setup you decide to use. Do you have a pl8?
No. I'll Google it now.
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Re: Frontier V4

Postby steves1977uk » 05 May 2021, 20:31

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Re: Frontier V4

Postby DannyB » 05 May 2021, 20:42

Thanks Steve. :thumbup:
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Re: Frontier V4

Postby rickystyx » 06 May 2021, 07:04

DannyB wrote:Thanks Ricky. I'll give it a try although my understanding of electrics so far hasn't gone beyond the wiring diagram on a 1950s Morris Minor. :oops:

I don't know about soldering irons. I did gas welding back in the days when I could crawl under a car...


If you can manage wiring on a Morris Minor you can manage this - it isn't that complicated once you get in to it just ensure you don't make a short circuit
The nice thing about these is you can work on a table until you need to get them into a chair - you don't need to crawl underneath :D
ottobock b400 150Ah lifepo4
Swiss-trac manual chair add on with 30Ah Lifepo4 (want more 15Ah headway cells )
Meyra Optimus (PRIME)2 150Ah lifepo4 :0)
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