New Bounder 300M 21st Century Scientific

[fishinjunky]

I'm only able to get my bounder charged up to 85% and that's after charging all night and half the day. The charger showed green but I leave it on for the charger for a few hours while on green but still only shows 85%

[expresso]

what charger are you using to charge it ? is this lithium or Lead ?

how do you know what percentage it is at ?

[Burgerman]

He doesent. It isnt possible to know with lead.

EXTREMELY difficult with lithium ion phosphate and only at the top and the bottom. Not anywhere else. And pretty easy and possible with lithium ion or lithium polymer..

He likely has a % scale designed by some idiot programmer that thinks battery voltage = state of charge and that you can map one onto the other. If he goes for a drive in it, the gauge will "recalibrate" its averaging and will then tell him its fully charged probably. But theres no way to actually know that. Its all a lot of (cough) bollocks. All depends how the programmer thinks batteries work... They are NOT fuel tanks.

Most mobility battery gauges pretend to know state of charge. They cannot know. But they pretend like they do. By averaging the highs and lows, and displayng a bunch of fancy lights. Or even more rediculously a % gauge. The only way to REALLY know is to measure voltage AFTER DISCONNECTING the battery for 24 hours or longer. And accurately comparing the measured voltage, to several decimal places, and measuring battery temperature, and comparing the the actual battery manufacturers chart for that specific battery. They vary a lot depending on metal alloys used in the plates, additives in the electrolyte, etc. And the moment you drive it or charge it, you are back in the land of guesswork.

Most gauges read "full" at anything from 65% to 100% actual state of charge. And then drop like a brick and read empty at around 12.0V (24V) not on load. That does not mean that there is not still maybe 35Ah remaining, but battery impedance has dropped so that it not available at the sort uf currents needed to drive a chair. So is it now empty or 35% full? Its all nonsense! Which percentage should it read when you stop? B ecause that depends on load. And battery impedance, rate of previous discharge, etc. Battery gauges are all but useless. They exist to make users feel good. And they tell you once its empty.

[fishinjunky]

It's a pair of group 24 gell batteries and a stock charger. It's a new chair. I can't wait to go to lithium. Right now I'm in the research learning and planning phase of building a lithium pack
.

[expresso]

if its lead - what kind of charge do they give you - the charger shows a percentage ?

those chargers at least that i know from all the others - just show a orange light as charging - green when done - but its not really done -

i never seen a charger from bounder - other than the lithium charger they gave me which i dont use - i use the PL8


you need lithium with the bounder more than any other chair - its heavy and even 100ah wont last isnt enough - most you may get is 30 miles out of it - depends on your riding style and ground - you may do that much with slower speeds also - maybe a bit more -

but still - fit as much as you can in the box and you be fine - you could also just make a ADD ON till your ready for the full chair ? if you can - do the full chair inside box and leave it alone

[fishinjunky]

if its lead - what kind of charge do they give you - the charger shows a percentage ?

those chargers at least that i know from all the others - just show a orange light as charging - green when done - but its not really done -

i never seen a charger from bounder - other than the lithium charger they gave me which i dont use - i use the PL8


you need lithium with the bounder more than any other chair - its heavy and even 100ah wont last isnt enough - most you may get is 30 miles out of it - depends on your riding style and ground - you may do that much with slower speeds also - maybe a bit more -

but still - fit as much as you can in the box and you be fine - you could also just make a ADD ON till your ready for the full chair ? if you can - do the full chair inside box and leave it alone

They are a pair of GEL group 24 batteries. I'm going off the my linx app for battery percentage and the bar on the joystick isn't full looks like around 85% full. Not that I believe either is accurate. I'm sure the app is just displaying what the joystick says the battery level is

I kinda hope somethings up with these batteries. Then I'll try to get the 100ah lithium battery covered by Medicare and Medicaid and add a addon pack or if they won't then I will probably do a full conversion

[steves1977uk]

My guess is the battery meter calibration is wrong in programming, and maybe it's set up for lithium batteries (although it's really not!). I wouldn't worry about it personally as meters are never accurate.

Steve

[expresso]

i didnt think of that - it could be set up for lithium -

on my JS theres a blue light - means its lithium -


on my friends chair - he has lithium also - and it was not set up for lithium on his

check that and make sure its set up for Lead -

[fishinjunky]

i didnt think of that - it could be set up for lithium -

on my JS theres a blue light - means its lithium -


on my friends chair - he has lithium also - and it was not set up for lithium on his

check that and make sure its set up for Lead -

i just checked its programmed correctly. Maybe its out of calibration?
I emailed 21st Century Scientific to see what they say about it. they do have really good customer service

[fishinjunky]

now today its showing 95% charge lol must be supper extremely slow to charge the last 15%. I put in on the charger10 hours ago it was at 85% when i started charging now at 95% but who knows how accurate the gauge on the joystick or app is. When I convert to lithium i will install something to monitor the battery

[fishinjunky]

now its reaching full charge. What i didnt realize is that if you use alot of battery it takes FOREVER to get fully charged even if the green light comes on it takes multiple hours to reach full charge once the green light comes on. So after a day of heavy use and alot of battery it will take me allmost two days to fully charge which i cant do so that means im only getting 85% charge each time.. Im using the charger that came with the chair.

Has anyone got lithium battery from Bounder covered by Medicare or Medicaid. Im going to try to get it covered and get their lithium battery until i save enough to build a add on pack or fully convert. i just dont know how to go about getting the lithium battery with Medicare. They fully covered the chair with group 24 batteries. Ijust got the chair couple months ago. Will i need to go through another evaluation an Doctor prescription for it?

[Burgerman]

If the charger works properly then the chair went quickly from whatever it was at to 2x the following. 14.1 (GEL) to 14.4 to 14.7V CV stage. It sat at thgis 14.x volts, for 5 to 8 hours. Then it dropped the voltage to 13.5 to 13.8V on a permanant long term float.


So... All the controller and your phone app saw was that the battery sat for many hours at 14.x Volts then it dropped to 13.6ish volts indefinitely.

Now consider this.
A battery that is 100% full falls to less than 13.4V after a few mins when unplugged from the charger. Depending on battery type, make, agew, etc it will continue to fall until around 12.9V after a day, or a week. Its important to understand that its STILL full.

So 100% charged can be from 14.7V down to 12.95V. a large range.
Now consider that I can take a 50% charged battery. And charge at 40 Amps for a liuteral couple of mins. And then stop. It will be at best 55% FULL. Its voltage may now be 13.5V a couple of mins after charging. So it will READ and appear FULL. After waiting TWENTY FOUR HOURS it will read aprox 12.5 volts. As its really still half charged.
I can take the fully CHARGED 100% battery, and use it to crank a truck. I may remove just 5Ah. But its voltage will be depressed. Due to surface charge effect. Its still 95% charged but its voltage may read 12.6/12.7 a couple of mins after starting that truck. So it will appear to be 65% charged.

So you tell me. A BATTERY GAUGE that woorks on voltage. HOW can it ever tell you if that battery is full or not.

Theres ONLY 1 way to tell a lead barttery state of charge.
1. DISCONNECT it from all chargers or loads. And no, turning a powerchair off does NOT do that!
2. wait at least a day.
3. using a CALIBRATED quality multimeter measure open circuit voltage and battery temperature.
4. cross reference open circuit voltage / temp with the manufacturers specification. Every battery type, is slightly different depending on exact chemicals used.

There is no other way. And even this cant tell you range. Your chair may five you say 7 miles at "50%" based on voltage. And only 3miles on the last 50% and you grind to a halt at 32% one day, and 19% the next based on previous discharge rates during the day. So useless with added uselessness. The idea that they can mark a battery gauge in % points is worse than laughable.

aT BEST IT SHOULD BE MARKED:

GREEN = SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 70% AND FULL
YELLOW = SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 30 AND 70% MAYBE?
RED = STOP ANYTIME AT ALL AT RANDOM. POSSIBLY...

And thats not a fault of the gauge. Its the fact that its fundamentally unknowable.

[Burgerman]

So after a day of heavy use and alot of battery it will take me allmost two days to fully charge which i cant do so that means im only getting 85% charge each time.. Im using the charger that came with the chair.

ALL lead batteries take around 16 hours or longer to FULLY 100% CHARGE. That applies esp to gel. But also 14 to 18 hours with agm too., Theres no charger that can speed that up.
Your CONTROLLER has no way to determing if they are fully cgharged/saturated. So its guessing.

With a sensible sized charger 8 to 10 hours sees a battery at least 99% charged. Ignore your 85% thing it cannot know.
Does that 1% matter? It will not affect range significantly. It will mean that 1% of the battery acid remains as lead sulfate coating the plates. If you do this daily your battery soon ends up junk. And thats what almost every mobility charger does. They sulfate your batteries through incomplete charge. And they usually overvolt gel batteries causing further issues.

Lead batteries typically take 16 to 20 hours to charge FULLY.

This is an odyssey battery. Those are low impedance and charge FASTER than any other lead battery.
Here its being charged at FORTY AMPS and at the recommended 14.7V in cyclic use.
Note that even with a 40A charge, its taken almost 10 hours and the current is still naturally falling so its not done yet! Its at 133mA at the end of the graph. You cannot make this speed up. 2 graphs show current in Amps. And Volts. Vs time. When current drops to 1000th of capacity its 99.99% charged. If it doesent manage that then you must then go to lower voltage float for another 6 to 12 hours. Here it got top the 120mA figure (120Ah battery) in 10 hours just.

[Burgerman]

Gel take longer. OLD batteries take longer.

You dont need the float stage in cyclic use (its slow to use that to complete a charge and we dont have time) as long as the current falls to 500th to 1000th of C (capacity) over 8 to 12 hours max at CV stage. Or stop when current stops falling more than 0.1A over a 1 hour period.

This graph shows a typical weak charger, and a short CV stage of 4 hours. It stops too soon at around 1 amp. And gioves you the green light... Then continues with float which will continue charge but takes far longer if you leave it connected. This is what most simple cheap chargers do.

[expresso]

Call your vendor who got you the chair - let them know the Lead is not working out etc, and see if they can do something to get the process going to put in for the Lithium - i got mines covered and a few others have - But it depends on what insurance you have -

Medicare and Medicaid ? also is your Medicaid tied to a MLTC company - which then decides - usually they will deny - but if you can get a good Therapist and ATP to work with you - write a Justification letter as to why you need them etc, etc, - and submit it -

if you get denied - you can appeal it - if denied again - then fair hearing - - that would be the final word on it -

worse case you make it yourself - and fill it up with 200ah - 100ah isnt enough anyway - once you go lithium - you dont need to worry about monitoring it anyway - you have the Pl8 to charge and monitor data etc, -

[expresso]

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001252 ... defined.12

if anyone is interested in finding a good seller - i just got a single Cell from the seller above - my 2nd time ordering - i needed a single cell before and another now -

i can say they are brand new - QC lables on - no scratches - packed well - shipped and arrived fast - i tested it and got 80ah out of it -

Varicore the brand - would be good to post the good sellers so others can choose from them - -

[fishinjunky]

If the charger works properly then the chair went quickly from whatever it was at to 2x the following. 14.1 (GEL) to 14.4 to 14.7V CV stage. It sat at thgis 14.x volts, for 5 to 8 hours. Then it dropped the voltage to 13.5 to 13.8V on a permanant long term float.


So... All the controller and your phone app saw was that the battery sat for many hours at 14.x Volts then it dropped to 13.6ish volts indefinitely.

Now consider this.
A battery that is 100% full falls to less than 13.4V after a few mins when unplugged from the charger. Depending on battery type, make, agew, etc it will continue to fall until around 12.9V after a day, or a week. Its important to understand that its STILL full.

So 100% charged can be from 14.7V down to 12.95V. a large range.
Now consider that I can take a 50% charged battery. And charge at 40 Amps for a liuteral couple of mins. And then stop. It will be at best 55% FULL. Its voltage may now be 13.5V a couple of mins after charging. So it will READ and appear FULL. After waiting TWENTY FOUR HOURS it will read aprox 12.5 volts. As its really still half charged.
I can take the fully CHARGED 100% battery, and use it to crank a truck. I may remove just 5Ah. But its voltage will be depressed. Due to surface charge effect. Its still 95% charged but its voltage may read 12.6/12.7 a couple of mins after starting that truck. So it will appear to be 65% charged.

So you tell me. A BATTERY GAUGE that woorks on voltage. HOW can it ever tell you if that battery is full or not.

Theres ONLY 1 way to tell a lead barttery state of charge.
1. DISCONNECT it from all chargers or loads. And no, turning a powerchair off does NOT do that!
2. wait at least a day.
3. using a CALIBRATED quality multimeter measure open circuit voltage and battery temperature.
4. cross reference open circuit voltage / temp with the manufacturers specification. Every battery type, is slightly different depending on exact chemicals used.

There is no other way. And even this cant tell you range. Your chair may five you say 7 miles at "50%" based on voltage. And only 3miles on the last 50% and you grind to a halt at 32% one day, and 19% the next based on previous discharge rates during the day. So useless with added uselessness. The idea that they can mark a battery gauge in % points is worse than laughable.

aT BEST IT SHOULD BE MARKED:

GREEN = SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 70% AND FULL
YELLOW = SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 30 AND 70% MAYBE?
RED = STOP ANYTIME AT ALL AT RANDOM. POSSIBLY...

And thats not a fault of the gauge. Its the fact that its fundamentally unknowable.

Ok I see.

[fishinjunky]

So after a day of heavy use and alot of battery it will take me allmost two days to fully charge which i cant do so that means im only getting 85% charge each time.. Im using the charger that came with the chair.

ALL lead batteries take around 16 hours or longer to FULLY 100% CHARGE. That applies esp to gel. But also 14 to 18 hours with agm too., Theres no charger that can speed that up.
Your CONTROLLER has no way to determing if they are fully cgharged/saturated. So its guessing.

With a sensible sized charger 8 to 10 hours sees a battery at least 99% charged. Ignore your 85% thing it cannot know.
Does that 1% matter? It will not affect range significantly. It will mean that 1% of the battery acid remains as lead sulfate coating the plates. If you do this daily your battery soon ends up junk. And thats what almost every mobility charger does. They sulfate your batteries through incomplete charge. And they usually overvolt gel batteries causing further issues.

Lead batteries typically take 16 to 20 hours to charge FULLY.

This is an odyssey battery. Those are low impedance and charge FASTER than any other lead battery.
Here its being charged at FORTY AMPS and at the recommended 14.7V in cyclic use.
Note that even with a 40A charge, its taken almost 10 hours and the current is still naturally falling so its not done yet! Its at 133mA at the end of the graph. You cannot make this speed up. 2 graphs show current in Amps. And Volts. Vs time. When current drops to 1000th of capacity its 99.99% charged. If it doesent manage that then you must then go to lower voltage float for another 6 to 12 hours. Here it got top the 120mA figure (120Ah battery) in 10 hours just.

Yea that's what it is I'm not letting it charge long enough. I would almost have to get in it every other day to get a full charge. And no long trips a few days in a row which sucks. I am slowly realizing programmability and battery range are the two most important things to prioritize when getting a chair. I'm still very happy with the chair just need to upgrade the battery and I I recieved a message from the guy with the OEM Linx patch he said its still working once I get that I'll be content

[fishinjunky]

Call your vendor who got you the chair - let them know the Lead is not working out etc, and see if they can do something to get the process going to put in for the Lithium - i got mines covered and a few others have - But it depends on what insurance you have -

Medicare and Medicaid ? also is your Medicaid tied to a MLTC company - which then decides - usually they will deny - but if you can get a good Therapist and ATP to work with you - write a Justification letter as to why you need them etc, etc, - and submit it -

if you get denied - you can appeal it - if denied again - then fair hearing - - that would be the final word on it -

worse case you make it yourself - and fill it up with 200ah - 100ah isnt enough anyway - once you go lithium - you dont need to worry about monitoring it anyway - you have the Pl8 to charge and monitor data etc, -

That's what I'm going to do lucky I have a good physical therapist that did my chair. I'll have her do a justification letter

[fishinjunky]

Call your vendor who got you the chair - let them know the Lead is not working out etc, and see if they can do something to get the process going to put in for the Lithium - i got mines covered and a few others have - But it depends on what insurance you have -

Medicare and Medicaid ? also is your Medicaid tied to a MLTC company - which then decides - usually they will deny - but if you can get a good Therapist and ATP to work with you - write a Justification letter as to why you need them etc, etc, - and submit it -

if you get denied - you can appeal it - if denied again - then fair hearing - - that would be the final word on it -

worse case you make it yourself - and fill it up with 200ah - 100ah isnt enough anyway - once you go lithium - you dont need to worry about monitoring it anyway - you have the Pl8 to charge and monitor data etc, -

Thanks for the advice on the chains I checked them last night the right side was slightly looser my mom adjusted it super easy to do nothing to it. They are still clean surprisingly but I don't run the milage you do.

I'm calling the DME monday

[expresso]

check them after each ride - till they settle down and stay put - it will depend how much you use it - can be 6 times - give or take

how much slack do you give them ? i realized at least with me - that if i dont have a bit more slack that you would think is needed - they run tight and sound rough - if you notice when you move the JS to move the chair - they tighten up and then get slack when you let go

i try to use that as a quide to how tight to make them - also the clutch they call it - to open and close where you get to the nut to adjust - shouldnt be too hard to close by hand - and not too easy either - a nice firm solid feel that can be done without struggling to close -


now i want to check mines again - its been a long time since i did -

[fishinjunky]

check them after each ride - till they settle down and stay put - it will depend how much you use it - can be 6 times - give or take

how much slack do you give them ? i realized at least with me - that if i dont have a bit more slack that you would think is needed - they run tight and sound rough - if you notice when you move the JS to move the chair - they tighten up and then get slack when you let go

i try to use that as a quide to how tight to make them - also the clutch they call it - to open and close where you get to the nut to adjust - shouldnt be too hard to close by hand - and not too easy either - a nice firm solid feel that can be done without struggling to close -


now i want to check mines again - its been a long time since i did -

thanks i will for sure. i left just a little slack like you said. i like it better.
seems like a lot of people get intimidated by the chain drives but if the just knew how incredibly easy it is to maintain them.

[expresso]

it is easy enough - but as you know- easy is not always easy for many - most dont want to do anything at all - just plug and play thats it

and if you dont have someone who can do it for you with a half a brain - it wont be easy - its how much you want to do it and make it work

a friend of mines - he got one flat - didnt even know - i seen some slime on the tire - he went to all solid form now - he cant handle it -

he dosnt pay any attention what he rides over - and dosnt want to be bothered - now he got the bounder that he wanted and knew it had chains - but dosnt teach his girl to clean them - adjust them etc, - he used it maybe dozen times at most - going on 3 years -

hes plug and play - and the 100ah lithium dosnt take him that far as he though - so hes upset - if he wants to go far - he needs a pack on the back ADD ON - he wont do - dosnt want to spend the money - charger PSU - dosnt want to learn to do it - etc,

you cant help him - i even made him a ADD ON Cable - i would lend him a ADD ON pack when he wants to ride with me - -45ah - would be enough - still havnt done it - i am sure his pack is not fully balanced also -

the idea was i would lend him my pack and take it back at end of trip so i can recharge it - but that can only work one in a while - cant do that each day -

i gave up and dont bother asking him anything about his chairs or going out etc, -

[fishinjunky]

it is easy enough - but as you know- easy is not always easy for many - most dont want to do anything at all - just plug and play thats it

and if you dont have someone who can do it for you with a half a brain - it wont be easy - its how much you want to do it and make it work

a friend of mines - he got one flat - didnt even know - i seen some slime on the tire - he went to all solid form now - he cant handle it -

he dosnt pay any attention what he rides over - and dosnt want to be bothered - now he got the bounder that he wanted and knew it had chains - but dosnt teach his girl to clean them - adjust them etc, - he used it maybe dozen times at most - going on 3 years -

hes plug and play - and the 100ah lithium dosnt take him that far as he though - so hes upset - if he wants to go far - he needs a pack on the back ADD ON - he wont do - dosnt want to spend the money - charger PSU - dosnt want to learn to do it - etc,

you cant help him - i even made him a ADD ON Cable - i would lend him a ADD ON pack when he wants to ride with me - -45ah - would be enough - still havnt done it - i am sure his pack is not fully balanced also -

the idea was i would lend him my pack and take it back at end of trip so i can recharge it - but that can only work one in a while - cant do that each day -

i gave up and dont bother asking him anything about his chairs or going out etc, -

That sucks hes definitely missing out on alot of fun. First thing I'm going to do is build a add-on pack if I get approved for the 100ah lithium battery once I save enough money and feel comfortable with how to do it

Put the bounder on charge 14 hours ago it was at 70%. when I got in it today the battery bar didn't move and the app says 77% so it only charged 7% I know these gauges.are inaccurate but it still irretates me that I cant get the battery bar on joystick to show full

[Burgerman]

Why would it show "full"?

How does it know?

[fishinjunky]

Why would it show "full"?

How does it know?

Gotya I need to just quit looking at it. Save up get a pl8 an Psu and get used to using it before building a pack. BM is there any device with a display that I could connect to battery to at least get me In the ballpark of battery level

[Burgerman]

rEMEMBER THAT While it does some other stuff, it basically is a volt meter. And can be calibrated any number of ways, to suit different batteries and different chargers.

Is 12.9V fully charged?
Or is 13.4V fully charged? The answer is that even 12.6V can be fully charged if you take a short blip of high amps from the battery.

And that 12.8V can be 75% CHARGED... If its just been sat.

Which of these voltages should red what on your percentage scale?

Its all nonsense.
I could adjust it so that it reads 100% AT 12.8v and you would feel better. But the batter may be full. Or may be at 80% in reality. Same battery.

Most battery gauges are the opposite. They read full with anything above about 12.8v per battery. And they might be at 80% OR FULL. Who knows.

[ex-Gooserider]

check them after each ride - till they settle down and stay put - it will depend how much you use it - can be 6 times - give or take

how much slack do you give them ? i realized at least with me - that if i dont have a bit more slack that you would think is needed - they run tight and sound rough - if you notice when you move the JS to move the chair - they tighten up and then get slack when you let go

i try to use that as a quide to how tight to make them - also the clutch they call it - to open and close where you get to the nut to adjust - shouldnt be too hard to close by hand - and not too easy either - a nice firm solid feel that can be done without struggling to close -


now i want to check mines again - its been a long time since i did -

Another thing to look at when checking the chain tension is to test it with the chain in different positions in its travel - it seems that some spots will be tighter than others due to variations in the mechanical bits... I saw this a LOT when adjusting the chainsaws I used before I got hurt, and also on the few chain drive motorcycles I've owned...

ex-Gooserider

[expresso]

i always check it when they move the chair - i look at the chain- i want to make sure its tight when JS is moved -

thats the key i think - you dont want it tight when its not moving - then when you move its - its too tight

according to the manual - you want to have 1/4 slack on the top of the chain - not the lower part -

i have mines about 1/2 slack - does seem loose when its not moving - the bottom part of the chain has a little belly slack -

but once i hit the JS to move - it tightens up nicely - - i feel it when riding - its much better with a bit of slack - smoother

now the other thing i have to check are the sprockets - if the teeth wear down - that i have to watch - that can knock the chain off

i have a spare of both front and rear - i think i should be good a few more years easy before considering changing them

now my rear tires are smooth - worn out and i got something in one of them - slime coming out of one - its parked till i change the tires

waiting on tech . i wear this out in a few months if i use it daily - good thing is that the slime workes - it didnt get flat - but of course i wont use it - went home and parked it - called it in -

[fishinjunky]

rEMEMBER THAT While it does some other stuff, it basically is a volt meter. And can be calibrated any number of ways, to suit different batteries and different chargers.

Is 12.9V fully charged?
Or is 13.4V fully charged? The answer is that even 12.6V can be fully charged if you take a short blip of high amps from the battery.

And that 12.8V can be 75% CHARGED... If its just been sat.

Which of these voltages should red what on your percentage scale?

Its all nonsense.
I could adjust it so that it reads 100% AT 12.8v and you would feel better. But the batter may be full. Or may be at 80% in reality. Same battery.

Most battery gauges are the opposite. They read full with anything above about 12.8v per battery. And they might be at 80% OR FULL. Who knows.

it says ive had 4 HIGH BATTERY EVENTS. the warning flashed on the joystick tried a different 24v charged did the same thing. but i think it was full charged when i plugged it in