RWD vs MWD Pros - Cons

[Burgerman]

i dont have the switch box on this chair - i changed my JS to the newer color one - but its used from permobil - got it free so i tried it

works fine - to change to the seating section - i have to hit the up switch 5 times - then i have the seating options - then 5 more times when i done

Fit one. Its one R-Net connection. Then you can do it on the fly. That was the point of what I was telling you above. Or get THEM to for free.

today the chair was fine - where i went - had no hills - so chair felt fine - no issues - i need to speed it up a bit now on one profile - it was a bit slow taking off because of the hills - i toned it down

i will make one profile for hills - another for no hills where i can take off faster - even if wheelie is fine - its only the hills i need to watch and avoid

I dont get this part at all.
I only use or want 1 profile. It has acceleration and speed set to 100. The joystick is a proportional device. I decide how hard to accelerate or travel by how far or how quickly I move the joystick. If it wheelies and I dont want it to I reduce the "gas" a little. Doing tis I can balance it as either no wheelie, a continual long low wheelie, or a wheels 2 feet in the air wheelie at will. Its not a thing I think about it is something you naturally do. In exactly the same way as you would with the gas on your car. Why on earth would you ram it forwards and be out of control? And leave it there?

Is this a medical thing, hands not normal (whatever that means) so that you dont have the coordination? Or feel? Or is it because you dont have a proper hand position and so are only partly in control? Like MOST people I see using chairs?

yes i did pull the seat back all the way on the rails - next week i will be moving it a few notches forward -

1 inch is a big change. So dont go too mad! It may cure your problem. The correct position is a compromise between good steer control and shorter chair and too tippy. Then this becomes a very narrow choice if the chair is top heavy with high seating and a lightweight battery. If its a longer chair with lower seating it is not at all critical.

i am still leaving the ADD on pack off this chair for good now -
i realized that the new JS color ones - either sunrise model or permoile - they dont give you accurate distance mileage -

it showed 27 miles when i got home - GPS shows 35 miles - and my pack was at 3.173V lowest cell - so at the very most - maybe 40 miles

but 30 - 35 safer - my older JS model - was on point - very close to the GPS - i have to watch out for that now

It has nothing to do with the actual joystick. It has to do with the actual speed of the chair. And its programming. Refitting the old joystick will not change the miles. All it does is guess. Based on how long you hold the joystick at say half stick, or full stick. It PRESUMES incorrectly that you go 8mph at full stick or whatever the design speed of the chair is in programming. You dont actually go that speed though. You can get this more accurate by adjusting its parameters in programming. But it cant ever be accurate. Esp with 8mph motors. Because you slow on hills or adverse cambers etc and the chair doesent know this. It may also still be programmed for 6mph...

this pack is going on 6 years 105 ah headways - first one i ever did - still going great - i havnt opened that battery area in 5 years

A consequence of PL8 and not a damned BMS...

i also need to move my JS out a bit - to the right - to make the most of it - how i hold it - it struggles at time to get full speed - its not dead center - its me - its how i hold it - thats how i feel best holding it - so i have to move it out a bit and hope that helps

things change over time - have to adjust to the changes - but overall it was a great ride to the beach - little eye candy dosnt hurt -

if video came out - i upload it over the weekend

Eye candy! Cant wait!

[expresso]

yes its my arms hands - i dont work my JS like you do - so dosnt work the same way - i think most users do it the same way i do

this is my Old chair - its no longer covered by insurance so if i want that on this chair - i have to get it myself - its not that serious - and this chair wont be used once my new chair is sorted out - new chair has it

seating will go back next week - but will move it a notch or two - to try it -

all i am saying is - the new color JS - i have it on my new chair - have it on my old chair - and they both give the incorrect range distance

this is two JS now that do it that way - BUT the older color smaller JS - does not - it correct there - so what ever it does - or how ever

its not doing it as good as the older one - thats all - no rocket science involed - using one JS gives correct range - using the others dont - nothing else was changed on the chair etc

sorry but the beach video didnt work out - my power bank or camera - i have to keep an eye on that now - it worked the whole ride to get there - then stopped when i was there - - so no beach cheeks this time - will have to go back

but i did get some eye candy on my way home - some sort of festive going on - - take a look -

[Burgerman]

BUT the older color smaller JS - does not - it correct there

The joystick calculates nothing. The maths that figurs out distance in in the power module.

So swapping to the old or new joystick will change absolutely nothing!

If you want to correct it all you need to do is adjust it in the programming...

GO flat out for a bit, what exact speed does the GPS say?

Add this figure to the DISPLAY SPEED. and to the DESIGN SPEED.
And now it should read reasonably accurately. If it reads as if you did less miles, change design speed to a higher figure. Till it matches. Thats the way to make it as accurate it can be. All it does is multiply speed by time. It presumes that the chair goes at DESIGN SPEED when the joystick is fully forwards. It will display this on your screen. Even if you drive up to a wall and try to push it down. The power module thinks you are going 8mph... And that is displayed as speed, and speed x time (distance) on whichever joystick you attach...

[expresso]

Ok but if i swap it out and put my old one back - it works fine - if i change it to the newer style - its not accurate -

i dont care where or what does it - everything you saying means nothing - yes i can go in the setting and try to change things there to get it right again

but why do i have to do that when nothing was touched other than a JS swap - thats all i am saying - i dont care - it was nice to see the correct distance i did on my JS screen to watch it

now i know - 27 miles on this chair is 35 miles in real life - i can just look at my phone if i want to know - just seems very strange that on two different new JS - they act the same way

[Burgerman]

Ok but if i swap it out and put my old one back - it works fine - if i change it to the newer style - its not accurate -

They are the same. The problem you just stated is that they ARE NOT ACCURATE!!!

So you may well see 27 and 35 miles On either of them Or both of them On different days. Its not that they read differently. Its that BOTH are completely inaccurate.

You will get huge differences on the same trip, on different days with the SAME joystick... The way they try to figure out distance is very very imprecise. Reverse to a wall. Try to push the wall away with your anti tips. You will notice it tells you that you are moving albeit slowly as reverse is programmed slower. But you are NOT moving right? It just added some distance. And you never moved. This happens all the time as you do drive. Your SPEED is different to your joystick position depending on load. So it reads very inaccurately. Its NOT a difference between joysticks Its a difference caused by pseudo random speed guessing, load variations, x time.

now i know - 27 miles on this chair is 35 miles in real life

No you dont. Or maybe on tuesdays... Only accurate to around 30%

[expresso]

i am sure none of them are 100% accurate - but the old one was pretty much very accurate - - the newer JS - are way off -

the only item changed was the JS - forget about the PM - dosnt matter - all i am saying is that the new JS - are way off compared to the older JS i had - thats it - not a big deal - i didnt expect it - so i was thrown off a bit -

when i compare my GPS on my phone - with the older JS - it matched my GPS pretty much good enough - not a big deal - i have to watch out for that - thats all

all good - chair seems to do better in range without the ADD ON - or could be just my head - playing tricks - 35 miles today - 3.1V lowest point - unloaded that is -

i wonder how much my pack degraded so far - going on 6 years - 105ah headways - recharged put back closer to 85ah - - i wonder if my pack is no longer a 105ah - could be 95ah now ?

not complaining - this chair will be the last resort backup chair anyway - 35 miles is fine - if thats all i can do with it now -

or get another 200ah - then keep this 105ah as a paper holder

[Burgerman]

i am sure none of them are 100% accurate - but the old one was pretty much very accurate - - the newer JS - are way off -

the only item changed was the JS - forget about the PM - dosnt matter - all i am saying is that the new JS - are way off compared to the older JS i had - thats it - not a big deal - i didnt expect it - so i was thrown off a bit -

I give up.

None of them are 100% accurate

? ALL of them VARY by around a third on the very same trip!!! There are many variables and the JOYSTICK doesent measure anything at all. It only displays the figures the power module tells it to.

When I use my spare key in my van it does 35mp gallon. With the original key it only does 27mpg.

Seriously what you are saying makes the exact same sense...

[expresso]

ok if you say so - - we dont agree thats all

nothing else was changed but a JS - new one is way off - old one was much more accurate - thats it - nothing else to explain -

i though it was just that one new JS that was off - but now a 2nd new style JS is off by about the same amount - way off -

i can change it back to the Old JS and then is more accurate - put the new one - way off the mark -

i get what your saying each day or same ride may show a different distance - but its still OFF compared to the GPS -

old JS - is much more accurate - - so to me that means its something with the JS thats causing it - you give up so easy papa john

you have two pairs of sneakers - your old pair - that fits nice - and a brand new pair - dosnt fit as nice -

is it your foot thats the problem or the sneakers - old fits - new dosnt - what do you do - cut your foot to make it fit on the new sneaker or use the old sneaker that fits

its the same thing - JS is your sneaker - old one gives me a much more accurate distance - new one is less accurate by alot -

[LROBBINS]

I guess there is some possibility that the voltage swings on different joysticks might be just enough different to not match what the PM sees as full stick.

[expresso]

i dont know how it works - the inner workings

why would having a full stick or half stick matter ? the PM cant send one reading to a OLD JS - and a different reading to a New JS -

it must be something different in the JS - between old and new one - i guess new JS reads what the PM sends and then spits out a number

which is way off - old Js reads what PM sends it and spits out a number which is very close to what the GPS shows on my phone -

how or why it does it - dosnt matter - the fact that it does - is what matters - its not a big deal for me - i can figure out my range without the JS telling me anything

i am sure many have this new JS - you can check it on your own chairs and see if its correct or not - at first when i realized it - it was on my new chair - new JS - figured something in the JS is off -

but now on my older chair with the new style JS also - i realized its doing the same thing - so its the JS - nothing wrong with it - it just gives off the wrong number -

if i change the speed in the settings from 8.5 to 10 - would that close the Gap to a more accurate reading ? i can try that next time i adjust things - and test it that way -

[steves1977uk]

It could be down to the firmware in the joystick pod calculating the distance traveled differently. Maybe it thinks it's in km/h instead of mph.

Steve

[Burgerman]

The settings and all the calculations etc are all in the power module. Along with the KM or MPH settings. Try swapping them. Then changing joysticks. All those settings change to whatever you set up in the programmer. So its all in your head and all in the daft way they attempt to calculate distance. Its at best an approximation. I can do 5mph while standing still while trying to climb a curb.

[Burgerman]

dont know how it works - the inner workings

why would having a full stick or half stick matter ?

Because it assumes half stick is half of the design speed that you program in... And so if you program in 8mph as design speed it knows half stick is approx 4mph. Thats how it knows the speed. If you go 4mph it knows that you covered 1 mile in 15 minutes. Thats also exactly how it determines distance...

the PM cant send one reading to a OLD JS - and a different reading to a New JS -

CORRECT!!! And it doesent. its just not very accurate. So YOU think its is. It not. It doesent matter what joystick you fit. They all vary day to day worse than the battery meter...

it must be something different in the JS - between old and new one - i guess new JS reads what the PM sends and then spits out a number

Correct. It spits out the number the power module says to spit out. Any difference is due to inaccurate way its measured and your head...

which is way off - old Js reads what PM sends it and spits out a number which is very close to what the GPS shows on my phone

It is very inaccurate. There isnt a differece between joysticks other than in your mind. This is why testimonials are useless. Just because it matched the GPS when you checked it doesent mean it will the next time. Do you understand what accuracy means? Its not the same as calibration. It means you drive a GPS 5 miles. And the SAME joystick may read 4 or 6 miles on diferent occasions. Not that it always reads the same but lower or higher.

[expresso]

ok if you think so - new JS is way off - old JS isnt - thats all

case closed - have a - i will later its a heat wave here -

[Burgerman]

You think that. Because you dont get how they work. They are both equal and both equally useless at measuring distance. So your measurements or what you see is exactly whay you would expect!

[expresso]

i know that - but you dont have a good real reason for the differences

between OLD JS and New JS - new sneaker dosnt fit - same sneaker new model - old sneaker fits - same sneaker old model - sometimes i wonder what kind of are you drinking over there -

[Burgerman]

Let me explain.
When you tell a chair it goes full speed at 8mph then it AND YOU know exactly how far it travels in 1 hour I would hope!

So look at the display, and drive full speed. Does it match your GPS? If not, then it will not read the correct distance will it. So adjust that to the SAME speed as your GPS reads in programming. Why? Because nobody ever has. I have 6mph chairs that do 5.9mph and others that do 7. They are all set at 6.2mph (10kph) in programming by the manufacturer. Theres no such thing as a 6 or 8 mph chair.

If it reads 8mph and matches the GPS then you travel 8 miles in every hour right? Theres is no way for that to be wrong!!! It just is. Please tell me you get that? You can see that on the screen with your own eyes. OR you can look at your watch and drive 1 hour. Or you can do some simple maths and drive 1 minute. Or 1 second. And still know how far you travelled. EXACTLY how far. If your speed was accurate.

If it reads 2mph (1/4 stick) you will travel 2 miles in one hour. Or 0.03 of a mile in one minute. (Or 29.3 yards) or every second you cover 0.4 of a yard. Theres no way for the joystick to get that wrong either Is there? Because you dont even need one!!! Its simpler than a $1 calculator. And you dont even need that!!! I just did that in my head.

Now if the joystick is at half throttle the chair thinks its going at half speed REGARDLESS of which joystick is fitted. So your 8mph chair goes at 4mph right? You can do that in your head right??? It covers 4 miles every hour. Not exactly complicated.

At 1/4 stick its going 2 mph.
At half stick its going 4 mph.
At 3/4 stick its going 6 mph.
At full stick thats 8mph.

All of this depends on if you calibrated its ACTUAL speed in programming correctly. But this CANNOT change by swapping joysticks. And non of this has anything to do with the joystick. Or its display. Its super simple maths that YOU can do without any joystick at all right? So check it out as you roll with your watch or the built in clock...

I dont get how you cannot understand this!

[expresso]

haha - you make everything to be so techincal - not everything has to be -

i dont need to know and dont really care how it does it - i dont care to know every little thing in the world how it works -

it was just a simple thing i noticed and i posted my findings -

Nothing was changed but a JS - thats it - how ever it worked before - it works now - i couldnt care less half stick or full stick - your explaining to me how it works - which is fine - ok now i know how it works

dosnt explain the New vs Old JS - all this and nothing was accomplished

you want me to say ok now i got it- and thats it - still dosnt change the fact that new JS is Way off track - compared to older JS - thats it - simple -

yes its not accurate - never was - but one JS is Way off - compared to another - its something in the JS or how the JS reads the input from the PM -

its not a big deal - its all good - i dont need to know the miles - never had it before - though it was a nice feature - all worked fine before comparing it to the GPS before it was pretty much the same give or take -

we dont need to go on and on over this - its fine- i got it

[Burgerman]

That was not technical It was dumbed down to the level that a junior school kid would understand.

So I give up. The problem is not the joystick but your unrealistic expectation of accuracy and your non scientific test. But you cant see that. So carry on! Ignorance is bliss right? Thats why homer got the pencil hammered back up his nostril...

[expresso]

yes of course - all good

your a funny guy there - have a on me

[Burgerman]

A freind of mine was convinced the yellow yamaha 250cc bikes were faster than his blue one. When I was 17. Absolutely convinced. Bonkers or what. He wasnt very bright. Because every yellow one he came across beat him in a straight line flat out. He really was so convinced that he actually bought a yellow one in the end. No amount of explanation would convince him. He KNEW he was right because of his personal experience. He too valued personal testimony over logic and reason. Anyone that could think would know that this wasnt true. The engines and all the mechanical parts never knew what colour fuel tank. side panels etc that they would end up matched with. But logic and endless explanation wouldnt convince him. Because he ignored logic. And just "knew".

As it happens the new yellow one WAS about 2 mph faster compared to mine than his previous blue one. But thats just natural variability in production. Could I convince him of that? No. Some people are immune to logic.

But I tuned mine a touch with greater compression (I used the school lathe!) and narrow squish band, slightly more rectangular exhaust ports 1.5mm higher roof, and a single top ring on the pistons, and a slightly more open reed stops, and left him for dead anyway... Eventually of course we all bought big fast superbikes and so speed was all way more than you could use. But when you are 17...

[expresso]

still at it - its oK i got it -

this was suppose to be about MWD and RWD - i do it all the time - so i deserve it

yellow is nice though - my kitchen is yellow - and its fast also - cant tell me it isnt

its fine - this was not suppose to be a 40 page disussion - just something i realized - not a big deal -

today is so hot - we may have a black out soon - i went out - came back home-

[Burgerman]

Why do you get black outs when hot? Air conditioning?

What the hell will happen when the whole country are forced to scrap gas or oil for houshold heating (new gas and oil heating boilers are banned here in 4 years because boris wants to go green). Consider that on average in the UK a typical house uses 5 to 6 times as much energy in the form of gas compared to electricity. So the grid will have a 500% extra demand. It only copes now because we buy top up power from 5 countries! And they will be doing this too.

Then consider that boris is forcing us to buy electric cars. A typical house uses 15kwh a day. It takes around 100 kwh to charge a tesla. And most houses here have between 2 and 4 cars for the family... So that will increase draw on grid by another 6 or 7 times if they only charge ONE car fully.

So where is te 10 fold or greater electricity supply going to come from? Esp as they are BLOWING UP all the coal stations. And relying on widdmills that are stationary 2 days out of 3... And solar that only works in the daytime and only in summer.

And YOU are gettng blackouts already? Biden is shutting down all the fossil fuel plants and oil and gas pipelines. The world is going mad.

[expresso]

NYC usually dosnt get black outs - but its been an heat wave here - i mean over 100 degrees today -

everyone and there mother has there AC on full blast - the engery company Con Ed been warning everyone to cut back -- they cut power also because my AC dosnt feel as cold - yesterday and today the bigger one in the living room - thats a 220V line

the bed rooms are cool - maybe they cut power on the 220V lines - it seems that way

i had mines on all day yesterday and night till i went to sleep and didnt feel that cold - it was cool but not freezing cold

my bill is always high for a good 3 months of summer - with the AC - its always high anyway - between charging - my audio - TV i still have a plasma - it can heat the room - i use alot compared to others - i want to be comfortable while i am here -

[Burgerman]

Well they cant actually reduce the power. They have no way to do that on the grid. What actually happens is like your batteries. Esp lead ones... The current demand rises so many more amps... The voltage falls because the transformers and the cables all have resistance. And so they waste energy as heat. The result is an unintentional drop in voltage.

But thats because they need a bigger better grid with bigger better power stations. Already. Wait till 100 million start plugging in their teslas... And heating homes in winter with electricity... While that idiot biden shuts down your coal stations.

Then the power will fail. And be off more than on. And they will do rolling blackouts to give what power they have to different areas in turn. Then wait for all the surprised socialist faces that blame everything but themselves.

[biscuit]

They do that in South Africa, because for the last decade or so the grid hasn't been able to supply enough power for the demand. They call it load shedding. It used to happen without warning, one day there would be no electricity to a certain area for a day or two. Now they have a load shedding schedule I believe and so people have warning.

[Burgerman]

Well in south africa they used to have a lot of things. power and food being two of them. But the blacks took over. Chased away all the whites that did things like, you know make food and power... They murdrered them, burned theim out of their farms etc so they could take over. The farms, the power system, the government. Now they dont know how to make any of it work. And the once "breadbasket of africa" has no food, or power. And their parliment is normally hysterical shouting and smashing chairs over each others heads...

But we wont go there. Now the US knows better. Its just ignoring the facts! $$$.