Frontier x8 users....

[Rollin Positive]

Anyone that has a Frontier x8 4x4 on gel batteries

Can you let me know what kind of miles to expect??

Someone is posting 25 miles?

75A/Hr Sealed AGM Batteries

Driving Range: 25 miles

I know the motors are 700 watt vs 800 in the v6

https://www.magicmobility.com.au/wheelc ... heelchair/

[rover220]

Don't expect more than 10 miles.

[steves1977uk]

Yes, as we all know those mileage figures are done on flat tarmac surfaces, eg. Tennis courts and the likes. Plus you only get 40Ah from 75Ah batteries before it stops dead.

Steve

[Burgerman]

I know the motors are 700 watt vs 800 in the v6

I know you are not technical. But try to grasp this.

Motor watts says nothing about current draw, or power (torque/Amp draw) in a given chair. Even if it did, it has 4 motors rather than 2.
What matters is impedance and gearing (speed). And stall current and free running current.

Its also a scooter really, so uses very little power (current in amps) to turn in comparison to a normal powerchair. Those even waste huge currents just keeping straight. And so you would get more range per Ah used than a powerchair as scooters almost always do. But 4 motors ruins that gain...

So it depends quite drastically in use type. You might get 3 miles. Or 10. If you only roll on flat surface and added tyre pressure to say 8psi, you could easily double that. So on that vehicle range is all but impossible to determine.

[swalker]

I have a Magic Mobility X4, which is the model that was replaced by the X8 in Magic Mobility's lineup many years ago. While not a direct comparison, my results may be of some value to you.

With a pair of MK group 24 gel batteries, I had a practical range of 3.5 to 4 miles. In a test run, I was able to extend that to 5 miles, but it was not at all reliable to do that in everyday riding.

The range was so limited that I decided to swap to LiFePO4 cells. I built a battery pack from 176 Ah cells. I have tested that pack to a range of 33 miles. I would feel comfortable riding 25 to 30 miles on steep and rugged terrain with that battery pack.

There are significant differences between the X4 and the X8. The X4 has a maximum speed of 4 miles per hour while the X8 has a maximum speed of 6.2 miles per hour. On the X4, the motors are mounted parallel to the wheels, with the gear box enabling a 90 degree bend of the drive power to drive the wheel. The X8 uses "direct drive" motors that are mounted perpendicular to the wheels, which are claimed to be more efficient.

Magic Mobility claims the X8 is more powerful than the X4 and is more efficient. If these claims are true, the X8 will have a greater range. Still, I would not expect the X8 to have a practical range of much greater than 8 to 10 miles.

Steve

[Fred005]

Hi.

I've an X8 too.
However a little bit customized !!!
https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/ ... =2&t=10587

Depending of the area where you'll hike with your X8, my opinion is, it's better to speak in hours rather than miles for the endurance.
For exemple, in my mountainous area, I can hike ''only'' 25km, but in high mountain, and during 8 or 10 hours. With D+ more than 1000m.
On a flat black road, wich is not what my X8 love, it could run more than 100km for sure.

So, you have to think where you'll go with your X8, and depending of the area, think miles or hours.

Fred.

[Rollin Positive]

Thank you all how I would be using it once we get back to traveling I would take a 2nd chair with me to cities we would be going to that we would be going to a beach

It would just be used on the beach and not have to worry about getting stuck and having my wife have to struggle pushing out

So 10 miles would be fine to and from the hotel and rolling on the beach

thank you so far for the input.

[Burgerman]

Depending of the area where you'll hike with your X8, my opinion is, it's better to speak in hours rather than miles for the endurance.

Its better to speak in amps used over time. Which means Ah of course and not exceed 80% of what you have. This works great for lithium. But not lead.
Buy a simple counter. I ise a hobby one or used to do. Like the https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-180 ... lyzer.html It only counts up to 100Ah so is not a lot of good with 200Ah or bigger batts we use today. It just goes inline with your battery cable. Up to 180A. Also tells you watt hours used, Amps, volts, and all the rest too. For peanuts and is pretty accurate. Doesent count regen though.

For lead the SPEED that you discharge that battery, and its impedance, (the closest we have to being a good predictor of the Peukert level) is at least as important as measuring the Ah used. So not really very workable on those unless on a constant current device like a UPS or something.

[davidpaul]

Our sons V6 will do 18 miles on a charge, I'm converting it to lithium for extra distance when we go mountain biking

[Burgerman]

It will on tuesday. Go on a different route, or more turning, ramps or hills and it might do 8 on wednesday. And thats the problem. So its hard to predict.

I can wear out a set of lead batteries doing no more than 1/4 of a mile by continued left/right turning while leaf blowing my driveway for half an hour. And the controller rolls back power frequently as it too overheats. And I have gone nowhere!

Or get 10 miles by doing no housework (which eats Ah indoors) and setting off straight away in a morning and traveling on flat ground at speed. Same chair different days. Vastly different distance.

[Fred005]

....
Its also a scooter really, so uses very little power (current in amps) to turn in comparison to a normal powerchair. Those even waste huge currents just keeping straight. And so you would get more range per Ah used than a powerchair as scooters almost always do. But 4 motors ruins that gain...

Hi.

You're not right.
Turning with the X8, needs power/amps/volts.
A real scooter have a handlebar, and even if the X8's front wheels are locking hard to the right/left, it's with the motors.
Also, it's depending of the turn radius.
The more you want a short radius, and the more X8 needs power, because when the joystick is right/left at the maximum, the iner rear wheel will turn in the reverse side.
So, yes, X8 needs a lot of power for steering right/left. And it's here the main problem when you are climbing a huge hill. It took me many test and hours to have a good PM setings for the steering.
Now, it's fine, even if it could be better with a handlebar or something else. But some others problems will arrived in this case.

[Burgerman]

You're not right.
Turning with the X8, needs power/amps/volts.

I am.
An X8 uses nowhere NEAR as much current turning as a powerchair.

If turning in place my wheelchair uses the max power the controller, easily. Thats a 100A per channel controller in this case.

On this short video, I have ONE cable from ONE motor, looped through a clamp meter. WATCH the amps hit the maximum a controller can provide to turn in place. Its a 100A controller. It reaches 104A and thats its limit per side.
http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/motoramps.mp4 And remember that the other motor is doing the same.

And when traveling along a lateral slope, a powerchair tries to fall to the low side. In order to travel along in a straight line the lower motor has to rovide all the thrust, and the high motor actually has to provide NEGATIVE power to prevent the chair turning and running down to the curb. Because the CG is well ahead of the drive/steer wheels and the caster is free to rotate and go toward the low side.

Your machine doesent do this either or if so only to a very small amount. So you get much more range on a similar rout than any powerchair would due to turning. But because you have 4 motors in place of two, you always have two lots of free running current on each side. So wastes more power on a straight run. Say across a car park. Each motorr takes around 5 to 10A unloaded and free running. So in straight lines the powerchair wins.

[Fred005]

It's exactely the same with an X8.
Maybe a little little bit less because of it's front axel, not much however.
When I'm an a road, a rounded one, I must correct my heading with the joystick. The same when I'm hiking in a slope.
In addition of that, rear wheels speed too is changing when turning right/left. And even when it's a small turn.
When I got my X8 a 150A fuse was installed on the batteries.
My friend's dog, ate it while I removed the batteries. So no injury for the dog !
I had only a 100A fuse and for some test I installed it.
In my garage, so on the concrete, I done a 360 ... I wanted to do a 360, but after 180 degrees the fuse melted ...

[Burgerman]

While rolling your front axle stops you needing to correct in the same way on a sideways slope or raod camber. Much like a scooter. In a powerchair the high wheel frequently is PULLING BACKWARDS on a rear drive chair. In order to go forwards. The low wheel has to compensate for that and drive the powerchair as well. So huge curents To stop it falling nose first down towards the gutter. Its taking a lot more power at this point that an X8. Along most of your route. Yes if you try to zero turn in place with an X8 you really cant and so everything is stalled and will take a lot of power for nothing. But you wouldnt try to do something it isnt capable of doing for no reason would you?

On the same road edge camber for e.g you would need very few amps to straighten your steering axle in comparison to a rear drive powerchair.

Where you do lose out is when traveling at any speed anywhere. You have double the free running motor amps. Because of 4 motors. So you win like a scooter along a lateral slope like a road edge and lose at costant speed on the flat compared to a powerchair. A sort of in between situation between a true scooter and a powerchair.

And many 120A R-Net powerchairs come with a 150A fuse as stock. They really should do even if they dont. Its possible to pull 240A peak at times, but only for few seconds dep on programming. A 150A fuse can handle that. A 100A one cant. Mine all have 150A fuses. Even then I can make the wiring smell bad indoors just vaccuming! Constant zero turns. Too much. It makes the wiring smell and the controller roll back power. Inside the house going nowhere. You just need to be active.

[Fred005]

''While rolling your front axle stops you needing to correct in the same way on a sideways slope of road camber.''

Absolutely ... NO.
While rolling on a rounded road or track, my front axle wants to go down the hill. So I need to correct heading.
And more than that, when there is a small hole, or bump, the X8 front wheels turn without any joystick movement. And you need, every time, except on a road like mirror, to correct heading, again.

But, if I lock the steering on the X8, ok it's more easy to go straight !!! However not easy to turn except for a big radius turn ...

''Yes if you try to zero turn in place with an X8 you really cant and so everything is stalled and will take a lot of power for nothing. But you wouldnt try to do something it isnt capable of doing for no reason would you?''

It's capable to do, and I do with many many reason. Not on concrete for sure, but even a track could be as difficult as concrete for a turn.
When for exemple I hike on a track, with only 80/90cm width and if for any reason I must do a 180, I do that. And when hiking in mountain, that is very very often.

[Burgerman]

''While rolling your front axle stops you needing to correct in the same way on a sideways slope of road camber.''

Absolutely ... NO.
While rolling on a rounded road or track, my front axle wants to go down the hill. So I need to correct heading.
And more than that, when there is a small hole, or bump, the X8 front wheels turn without any joystick movement. And you need, every time, except on a road like mirror, to correct heading, again.

CORRECT but it only takes a couple of amps to correct that. You are steering a free turning axle. Where the centre of pressure and the pivot point are within a very close distance. So its easy and takes little energy or torque. With a rear drive powerchair the centre of pressure mostly you, your body and legs are way ahead of the drive and steering wheels. So instead of correcting just your front axle steering wheels you are correcting the whole chair where 190kg plus mass of user is sat way in front of the drive wheels. Where that mass has a lot of leverage. The difference is absolutely enormous.

Imagine if you had no front axle, and only casters that hold up the front. The rear wheels would need to add HUGE torque in order to stop the front going down to the curb. MUCH more than turning a couple of steering front directional wheels.

[Fred005]

Again, no, BurgerMan.
Both wheels, on the same side, needs feed during a turn.
Front wheel and rear wheel.
Not only the front one as you may think.
The X8 is not only turning a free front axle, it's using too rear wheels for turning.

[Burgerman]

I know how it works. Its a stupid design. The rear should not get diferential steer input as it cannot do that at low speeds so wasted power (amps). But you still need much less because it only takes a few amps at all 4 wheels to make that axle turn. Nowhere near 100 or so. So it uses much less power to correct or to iniiate a turn that a rear drive powerchair. Esp one thats as nose heavy as every stock one is. So far less wasted power along a cambered road edge or sloped pavement.

[swalker]

And when traveling along a lateral slope, a powerchair tries to fall to the low side. In order to travel along in a straight line the lower motor has to rovide all the thrust, and the high motor actually has to provide NEGATIVE power to prevent the chair turning and running down to the curb. Because the CG is well ahead of the drive/steer wheels and the caster is free to rotate and go toward the low side.

[swalker]

And when traveling along a lateral slope, a powerchair tries to fall to the low side. In order to travel along in a straight line the lower motor has to rovide all the thrust, and the high motor actually has to provide NEGATIVE power to prevent the chair turning and running down to the curb. Because the CG is well ahead of the drive/steer wheels and the caster is free to rotate and go toward the low side.

Burgerman, as usual, you are right...for a rear wheel drive wheelchair (which you prefer) .

But, for a front wheel drive wheelchair, it is just the opposite. When negotiating a banked turn, you have to steer into the turn, because your center of gravity is aft of the drive wheels. A subtle, but important difference. I prefer front wheel drive to rear wheel drive (I have both) for general usage, so the difference is important to me.

I also think you are oversimplifying things to say a Magic Mobility X8 steers like a scooter. I have used both and the X8 is certainly different. Because the X8 sends roughly equal power to both the front and back wheels on a given side and because the front wheels freely articular (tied together by a tie rod), it does behave differently from a scooter. It also behaves differently from a two wheel drive power wheelchair (front, mid, or rear wheel drive).

So, while your main point is valid, there are sufficient subtle differences in an X8 (I have the X4 but have ridden in an X8), relative to a scooter to be meaningful.

Steve

[Fred005]

.... Because the X8 sends roughly equal power to both the front and back wheels on a given side ....
Steve

Not roughly, exactely equal power to both the front and rear .....
It's what I've tried to explained with my bad english.

[Burgerman]

Yes I am talking about rear drive powerchairs as per my vid showing the true current needed to turn. Its not about how much the X8 sends to front and rear (which is the same) its about how much power it takes to MAINTAIN A STRAIGHT PATH on a transverse slope compared to the powerchair. And that difference is huge.

It takes all the power a powerchair has (quite literally up to the current limit) to go straight at the edge of some roads (by way of example, but also at other times when steering). Because the whole mass of the powerchair is around 18 inches ahead of the drive wheels. Thats a lot of leverage. Centre of mass is way way ahead of the centre of pressure. With the front end completely free to lever the whole chair down the slope as casters travel in ant direction.

On your X8 the front is NOT dragging the whole chair downwards because the tyres are not free to go sideways... Because of the TRAIL in the steering geometery (a couple of inches at most) a small force turning the wheels down towards the curb exists. SMALL! Now some smaller opposite load (current) is needed to stop the chair steering itself downwards. Why small? It is only a matter of a tiny amount of trail built into the steering geometry. So when you correct it, it only takes a small current. Theres much less leverage trying to turn your front wheels down. A tiny amount of trail in the system needed to self centre. Yes it sends and WASTES the very same small current to the rear wheels too. This is probably in the region of 5 to 10 times less Amps than needed on a typical powerchair in the same situation.

And yes its the opposite problem on front drive chairs. But that is obvious and wasnt what I was talking about. And a mid drive has no need of any correction. Its neutrally stable. Likewise if you modify the small amount of trail that an X8 has from maybe 2 inches to 1 inch this already small current will be halved. And again, if you set it at zero trail it will be completely gone and no correction needed. But if you set it at around 18 inches LIKE A POWERCHAIR it will be huge. In the same way.

The X8 would be better served in steer and drive efficiency if it used the same system as the myra chair uses. With steer servo. And no totally wasted power on the rear wheels while turning. But that system is more expensive. And more complex. It would increase range a little more. As it is, it behaves part way between a rear drive powerchair and a scooter. With low motor current needed to steer and the same amout wasted for no reason at the rear. But its much better along a transverse slope. or correcting direction anywhere while driving (since it cannot do zero turns at all) than a powerchair such as I use.

The reason for this is that is that a powerchair uses the whole chassis to steer. It IS your front axle... with the centre of pressure (drive wheels) miles behind the centre of mass (you). And the X8 steers with its front axle only like your car, where the mass pulling it down toward the curb is only an inch or two in front of the centre of pressure. Around 7x less force (guesstimate) needed to correct or steer in comparison. And only half the weight is sat above that axle anyway.

Its exactly the same as your car. It also pulls to the left/right on a transverse slope. Slightly. And for the very same reason you can contol that force easily with 2 fingers on the steering wheel. Little steer force finds it way to your fingers because the level of trail on your car is measured in a millimetres. It works like your X8 does.