Rear obstacle kit anyone?

[Spectra_Pilot]

Hi everyone, I'd just like to throw this out there - has anyone tried/tested/is using a wheelchair obstacle/hazard sensor for reversing nto tight spots? It would be fitted to a new Invacare Aviva (privately).
I'm totally rigid with zero neck movement before anyone says 'look over your shoulder
I know we're a million miles away from having one on something like the LYNX REM400/500 display.

I'm not bothered by seeing behind as I can plug in a USB camera, but that's a faff and I need to hold my mobile all the time. Some sort of noise alarm, such as a car beep......beep.....beeeeeeep to warn of obstacles!

All opinions/thoughts & suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

[Burgerman]

A mirror.

[steves1977uk]

Don't see the point honestly. In all my years of driving a chair I've never needed a device to see behind me. I've tried mirrors but they don't do much for me and any device that needs power from the chair is a big no-no IMHO, as Lead bricks have a hard time as it is. If you go Lithium, then no issues.

Steve

[Burgerman]

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com ... TpniKL.jpg

Rower's use these.

[Spectra_Pilot]

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41619TpniKL.jpg

Rower's use these.

Thanks for the replies but honestly, the cap mirror is a joke, tried, tested, binned months ago. Now I'm sure I'm not the only powerchair user with zero head/neck movement that struggles manoeuvring in tight spaces (rooms/doorways/public transport etc etc)
I just fail to see how something so logically simple as a 'reverse sensor' is made out to be as difficult as getting a wheelchair to the moon!!

I thought we all had a positive 'can do' attitude to life with its multitude of individual personal daily life challenges, helping others and offering advice and support to others in need, life's journey. Obviously I'm in the minority

[duke1]

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41619TpniKL.jpg

Rower's use these.

Thanks for the replies but honestly, the cap mirror is a joke, tried, tested, binned months ago. Now I'm sure I'm not the only powerchair user with zero head/neck movement that struggles manoeuvring in tight spaces (rooms/doorways/public transport etc etc)
I just fail to see how something so logically simple as a 'reverse sensor' is made out to be as difficult as getting a wheelchair to the moon!!

I thought we all had a positive 'can do' attitude to life with its multitude of individual personal daily life challenges, helping others and offering advice and support to others in need, life's journey. Obviously I'm in the minority

hi i have limited neck movement,next to none so i try not to have to reverse even in my car and rarely do so in the chair but on a properly redesigned chair (rwd) with seat moved right back and centre footplate fitted so not so much sticking out behind,no sticky out casters or lights i just reverse till my anti tips touch the wall then stop,if idiots choose to get in the way they get squashed!
but if in your situation i may considers something like these in a kit diy in a few minutes, https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/282751972028 ... %3A2334524
not sure how well it would work in practical sense and may take lots of trial and error as to fitment,good luck keep us updated if you find an answer that works,peace

[slomobile]

https://luci.com/
They use Intel Realsense 430 infrared camera modules and ultrasonics to detect obstacles and brake if they see any.

I'm using a Realsense D455, That shows me distance to objects. Ultrasonic sensors are more reliable over short ranges of a few inches like walls and doorways.
If there is a part of the chair you often ding, you can put a sensor there and have it alert you audibly, or with a LED connected to an Arduino.

If you have specific needs or questions I can try some things out.

[martin007]

Hi everyone, I'd just like to throw this out there - has anyone tried/tested/is using a wheelchair obstacle/hazard sensor for reversing nto tight spots? It would be fitted to a new Invacare Aviva (privately).
I'm totally rigid with zero neck movement before anyone says 'look over your shoulder
I know we're a million miles away from having one on something like the LYNX REM400/500 display.

I'm not bothered by seeing behind as I can plug in a USB camera, but that's a faff and I need to hold my mobile all the time. Some sort of noise alarm, such as a car beep......beep.....beeeeeeep to warn of obstacles!

All opinions/thoughts & suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Can I ask you a question?
Do you really need something like that?

[Burgerman]

Imagine if he cant turn his head. I drive a FPV (first person view) 1/8th scale truck. And fly quadcopters with the same on board camera as my only way to see the world as I drive or fly on a screen or in my goggles. Its quite hard to do. If I am approaching an obstacle like a tree trunk of a fence, I cannot see what is to the left or to the right. Of behind. Or with the quadcopter what is above or below. Even landing back in my garden if frought with danger. I could be landing on the lawnmower. Or miss the garden altogether. I already crashed once when going up as I couldnt see a tree branch above.

Its the same thing I suppose. Sort of like unmovable tunnel vision.

[martin007]

In that case the best is a rear view camera.

[slomobile]

http://sonic-sight.org/
https://support.intelrealsense.com/hc/e ... from-depth
https://www.clockworkpi.com/

[LROBBINS]

Our VW Caddy has four ultrasonic sensors in the rear bumper. They do a good job of warning of obstacles, with a tone pulses more frequently as you get closer to the obstacle. What they don't do is tell you where the obstacle is, other than in back of you. For that, one has to look in the side-mount rear view mirrors, which on the Caddy are of truly ample size. Note that this doesn't really solve the poster's problem, however. At most it could be rigged to simply stop or slow the chair if one gets too close to anything anywhere in the rear, e.g. by having it close a relay that triggers an inhibit.

[steves1977uk]

My Ford Custom van has these at the front and back, it alerts the driver on it's onboard screen display when the van is close to hitting an object. It also has a rear camera so you can see what's behind on the screen when reversing. Quite a cool feature to have on a vehicle.

PGDT needs to implement something similar for R-net CJSM2 screens.

Steve

[greybeard]

In that case the best is a rear view camera.

This doesn't really answer Spectra-Pilot's question.

I tried a few motorcycle rear view kits for when I was forced to use our rural roadways, but ran into mounting problems for the screen. In practice the screens were all too small to be seen easily and they also gave a true image, ie not giving a mirror eye view, which was confusing. This all caused me to conclude that a mirror was a safer and cheaper alternative when competing with traffic.

[slomobile]

This doesn't really answer Spectra-Pilot's question.

Spectra-Pilot or anyone else interested, this is technology being developed right now. One of the things delaying development is lack of market feedback. You are the market. Tell me what you want your "rear obstacle kit" to do.

What should it do when it encounters an obstacle? Pick as many numbers as you want and only one letter.
1. Alert you audibly.
2. Alert you visually.
3. Alert you haptically. vibrate your joystick
4. Alert you haptically. vibrate small "pager motors" stuck to your body or in your clothes to indicate the direction of the obstacle. i.e. one on each shoulder.

A) Alert only.
B) Alert and stop the chair before it hits anything.
C) Alert and provide cues for you to navigate around the obstacle. Cues provided via your numbered selection(s).
D) Alert and prompt to autonomously navigate around obstacle.
E) Don't alert, just avoid obstacle while obeying stick as much as possible.

If these options don't capture what you want, please describe what you want.

What model chair is it?
What part of the chair usually hits obstacles? Casters, seating, other...
What obstacles are you trying to avoid?
Describe the scene where you encounter these obstacles. Lighting, sound levels, indoor/outdoor all affect the type of sensors that should be used.

Luci is a finished product shipping right now that provides a B level of function. There are lots of video testimonials for Luci.
If you want something different, I'm happy to help you find or build it. I need something different, and am working on it. I would prefer to include more than just my own preferences.

I've asked about this type of device on this forum before and was met with only opposition.

[greybeard]

Sorry for any confusion. My comment was meant in relation to my answer only.

[slomobile]

Sorry I wasn't clear greybeard. I thought you answered the question very well. I'd considered car units, but didn't even think to look for motorcycle.

I tried a few motorcycle rear view kits for when I was forced to use our rural roadways, but ran into mounting problems for the screen. In practice the screens were all too small to be seen easily and they also gave a true image, ie not giving a mirror eye view, which was confusing.

The answer (as I read it) is there are a few solutions to other problems that can be pressed into service for this, but they aren't quite good enough in their current form.

I'd like to tackle some of those problems. Lets start with the screen. Making it a mirror image is possible with software. Some rear view systems include a way to turn mirroring on or off. Often it's a jumper, switch, or menu option. We can chalk that up to selecting a unit with that feature, or using a smart device as the screen and use an app to mirror the camera feed.

Mounting a useful size screen to my chair is something I am currently struggling with. I've found few(none) good examples. Please post any good examples you can find.

What is the right size? A 7" tablet is easy to mount to the end of the armrest, but too small to see well (farsighted). I bought a 24" touchscreen specifically for this purpose https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07S6482CN but its quite heavy and I'm not sure how to mount it.
One of the 15.6" portable touchscreen monitors with a built in battery seems about right.

What to attach it too? The seat base side rails are the easy choice. Except I like the option to lift my armrests and side transfer, or let my leg dangle over the side for a passive stretch. (when the joystick mount isn't cutting into my thigh)
Ideally it will mount to the backrest so when seating is reclined, tilted, or lifted the screen remains at same eye level. I'm already pushing the limits of my backrest weight capacity. Long torso, top heavy. On the Q6 Edge, I would sometimes backdrive the linear actuator till I could no longer see the joystick and be stuck there. M3 with ICS switchbox solved that.

I'm thinking about adding a VESA pole mount to the center foot rest. It moves when the back reclines and puts the weight at a better end of the chair. If it mounts neer the heel, it interferes with transfers. Near the toe, I can step through for transfers, but it is now the forwardmost point on the chair and it wont fold up like the footplates for transport. Id like some kind of quick attach features so the monitor pole mount sits on the ground like a kiosk. But I can drive up to it, placing the pole between the footplates, and somehow it becomes attached when I raise the footplates. And detaches when I lower the footplatesall the way, returning the monitor to floorstanding mode.
Thoughts?

[greybeard]

None I'm afraid. I had enough trouble trying to mount a 2.5 inch screen. I suspect a 23 pound monitor would be overkill for the odd glance behind and extremely difficult to fit without an engineering workshop. Good luck.

[slomobile]

wheelchair obstacle/hazard sensor for reversing nto tight spots? It would be fitted to a new Invacare Aviva

That chair looks like the anti tippers would be the first thing to hit. And being small, could penetrate a sheetrock wall without much effort. I might use a flat, flexible piece of fiberglass to form a curved rear bumper between the anti tipper. It would distribute the force of impact over a wider area, hopefully decreasing damage. But it also serves as a sensor skirt. You could mount ultrasonic sensors in it. I might mount snap action switches to the anti tippers, then mount the fiberglass bumper to the switch levers. Now every time you bump into something, it triggers a switch. Which switch is triggered indicates which side the obstacle is on. Both switches, the obstacle is either in the center, or it was hit very hard.

[Rollin Positive]

Just came from the Ability's Expo in Scottsdale ariz and this was an interesting idea...

Over priced coming from Pride and the screen quality was super low like 480 maybe lower

But had potential the camera on the back below the headrest.

I would figure a better mount of the monitor like a flip up at the end of the joystick, plus figure a way like to use the monitor to stream content or app access

[Rollin Positive]

Checkout Luci...in the states some insurance will cover service and hardware
https://luci.com/?utm_source=google&utm ... zwEALw_wcB




youtu.be/E5ac4IIy14s

[slomobile]

I would figure a better mount of the monitor like a flip up at the end of the joystick, plus figure a way like to use the monitor to stream content or app access

Great idea. Instead of a standalone screen, mount your phone there at the end of the joystick. Plug a rear facing USB camera into the phone OTG port. You can even view behind without adding a camera. Switch to selfie mode and swing out the joystick pod to see around your shoulder.

[Rollin Positive]

I would figure a better mount of the monitor like a flip up at the end of the joystick, plus figure a way like to use the monitor to stream content or app access

Great idea. Instead of a standalone screen, mount your phone there at the end of the joystick. Plug a rear facing USB camera into the phone OTG port. You can even view behind without adding a camera. Switch to selfie mode and swing out the joystick pod to see around your shoulder.

BM has a cool mount for his switch box I would love to see a 2nd screen set up like his switch mount but on the joystick side

Pride is also coming out with two more cameras both velcro based for 3 different angles views

Potential...

[slomobile]

BM has a cool mount for his switch box I would love to see a 2nd screen set up like his switch mount but on the joystick side

I'm having trouble tracking down the mount you are talking about. I found this

zoom on joystick

BM3-drive-small.jpg (21.68 KiB) Viewed 1440 times

Do you have a photo of BM's awitchbox?

[steves1977uk]

It's all very well to keep adding powered gadgets to powerchairs, but what do most people complain about??? Lack of RANGE and dead batteries!

Can't see this being popular unless you only use it in shopping malls and round the home. Unless the user adds a Lithium add-on pack to help the Lead bricks survive longer, there will be more complaints about how crap Lead batteries are. Especially with NF22 and U1 group type.

Steve

[Spectra_Pilot]

What should it do when it encounters an obstacle? Pick as many numbers as you want and only one letter.
1. Alert you audibly.

C) Alert and provide cues for you to navigate around the obstacle. Cues provided via your numbered selection(s).


If these options don't capture what you want, please describe what you want.

What model chair is it? INVACARE AVIVA RX 20 MODULITE (with LINX REM 400 CONTROLS)
What part of the chair usually hits obstacles? Casters, seating, other...
What obstacles are you trying to avoid? SEE above
Describe the scene where you encounter these obstacles. I'm a 24/7 powerchair user, physically rigid (like a mannequin (Google FOP)) and struggle manoeuvring between rooms, in busy places, public transport etc etc.

Luci is a finished product shipping right now that provides a B level of function. There are lots of video testimonials for Luci.
If you want something different, I'm happy to help you find or build it. I need something different, and am working on it. I would prefer to include more than just my own preferences.

I've asked about this type of device on this forum before and was met with only opposition.

Thank you for your excellent information.

[Burgerman]

It's all very well to keep adding powered gadgets to powerchairs, but what do most people complain about??? Lack of RANGE and dead batteries!

And crap control, and reliability. Whatever "reliability" means.

I never found anything actually unreliable on any chair really. All the mainstream electronics and motors are very reliable. Esp electronics. Its just inhibits and seating that cause issues. As long as you dont include the obvious elephant in the room, permobils electronics)

How to fix that "reliability AND steering issue?
USE A OEM PROGRAMMER. Make it steer properly. And disable all the fault errors and inhibits from stopping or disabling a chair when the seating screws up. That way it may fail in some way but always drives.

So dont buy a chair needing special programmers that they keep to themselves. I.e. permobil and pride.

[Burgerman]

The "cool mount" he is talking about is one that I modified and is a otherwise stock sunrise part. I shortened the upright hex parts (the mounting points with a saw. They were 5 inches long! And I cut the long arm part in half and made it move the switch box inboard by 12mm and shorter by 40mm. Why? Because after adding DUAL uprights to the Q700 I had to do this to keep the switch box in tight to the arm and not stick out...

Look at the Q700R pictures.

https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/ ... 33#p171026

In particular this one helps! https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/ ... &mode=view

It still needs the wire cable tying in this image. The stainless bolts are mine... I cut in half, used to be one part. to allow it to be 40mm shorter, side by side, and move the switch box inboard where it doesent hit every door frame (they are £700 ) at the same time. Hacksaw, and drill and tap 2 holes... Literally 10 mins job for a paraplegic.

[slomobile]

@Spectra_Pilot
Excellent! You want a system that alerts you with audible cues indicating direction and distance to obstacles behind you.
Correct me if I get any of your preferences wrong.

That should require a Teensy(Arduino), teensy audio board [url]pjrc.com[/url], microSD card, small power supply and amp, 2 (or more) HC-SR04 distance sensors , and 2 small speakers mounted on your headrest. Might as well include a 3.5mm stereo jack so you can use your speakers to listen to music. A 3.5mm dummy plug can serve as the power switch, so it only comes on if something is plugged in. I don't see any need to integrate it with the chair control system. The bulk of the system would mount between the antitippers with wire running up to the headrest for speakers and audio jack. USB powered so it can plug into any generic 5V battery bank without affecting chair batteries.

Left and right rear sensors will continually measure distance to the nearest object.
If distance from left sensor is less than an adjustable threshold (maybe 3 ft as a starting point), the left speaker will begin emitting a low volume tone at slow interval, on 0.5 seconds, off 3 seconds. As the left sensor gets closer to the object, the volume will increase proportionally, and the off time will shrink till it reaches 0.5 seconds while making contact with the chair.. The right side works similarly, but with a different tone so that you can determine direction by both tone, and which ear you hear it with. Most obstacles will be detected by both sensors, so you will determine direction by which tone is louder, and by how much.

There are other ways this could be done such as varying frequency with distance. Let me know if this is good for you, or if you want it done a different way. You can go to https://onlinetonegenerator.com/ and start picking out some tones you like. It can be any sound you like. Record yourself or someone you like saying Left, Right, and those can be your cues. Yee, and Haw. Dat way, Da udder way. Beatles music on the left, Rolling Stones on the right. Whatever you pick, as long as you can stand them both playing repeatedly at the same time. Make each sample a .wav file on the root directory of a microSD card. left_***.wav and right_***.wav. *** can be whatever you like as long as they are exactly the same. You can have several different samples to choose from.
left_something1.wav
right_something1.wav
left_somethingElse.wav
right_somethingElse.wav
left_Fred.wav
right_Fred.wav

That is enough outline that a competent maker space should be able to make it. I'll work on it as I have time, anyone can contribute code, circuit board layouts, audio samples, hosted webspace, whatever ya got. I think this is something we could pull together open source like.

[Dan]

I usually keep reversing until I hit something then try again. After a while you will develop a second sense.