Lithium Chargers

[terry2]

Its not that simple. I gave up trying to explain why to you because you either do not read well or dont get it. You might go 1 mile with a "full battery" and stop. And you wont see it coming and wont know why.

For E.G
THIS BMS on aliexpress for e.g if you look at only the 8S 2A 200A BT version.
It does 200A.
It has 2A balance capability. It has all the usual BT and fancy graphics. It has everything you want right?
On the face of it its literally got 20x the balance current of that useless BMS linked to elsewhere on reddit/youtube...

Take a look. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003 ... 4304%22%7D

But that BMS will quite likely end up stopping very unexpectedly! See if you can tell why... This is why knowledge MATTERS.

I will ask around about the one in your link

Just downloading from the github to see if it's fully programable.

[terry2]

But it might STOP after 1 mile on tuesday. No warning. Thats what you are not understanding. STRANDED.

On the other hand.

The company that makes them could tell lies for 2 years and go out of business. Oh wait...that was the PL8 company

[steves1977uk]

expresso, I'd avoid an Overkill BMS since they have a tiny balancing current which would take forever on a large pack, but would be ok for an add-on up to 50Ah.

Steve

A 300ah 12v pack took 6 hours to balance.

There is no one on here that users all there pack in one day.
If I use my 170ah pack as normal. It would last months.

I bet that 300Ah pack was already balance by another charger. You don't seem to grasp that a BMS with a CRAPPY 50mA balance current would take foreverrrrrr on a large pack ≥100Ah.

Steve

[LROBBINS]

Or the cells were balanced by wiring in parallel and charging as a single cell. My 200AHr 8S pack, having been initially balanced that way, behaves like this with the PL8:

Not much imbalance to remove

[Burgerman]

Non if already balanced well initially BEFORE building the pack. The problem with that daft 50mA balance current comes after your packs cells decide to self discharge at different rates. Only the best A grade cells, and only when new, would self discharge at very similar rates. So if you have a cell or two that are no longer quite as well matched in say a years time, or your cheap chinese auction site cells were never A grade to begin with you have a problem.

Because over a few days or weeks it may well be that you end up say 1Ah out of balance. Maybe less. Possibly more. And with a 50mA balance current that means charge time + CV time and balancing time. 1Ah is 1000mAh, so now you have to leave all the full cells cooking away on charge and wait for 50mA x 20 hours for the balance to occure. Even if the battery was never even used. With a 1A or 1000mA balance it takes 1 hour to balance. Not 20.

But its not even that simple. Unless you used a power supply, you would never balance the battery. Because the charger would turn off when current went low or after x time. So every charge your balance problem gets worse. So that overkill BMS is a joke on a large pack. And only just acceptable on a 10Ah pack really. Unless its a SOLAR system pack. That supplies a constant voltage all day long and at east every time the sun is out. So that means the required hours and endless top ups happen automatically. And than it should keep up. Providing your pack self discharge variation between cells never exceeds 50mA.

[expresso]

i agree the low balance part is not good - we need at least 1A and more for that section on a large pack

if i didnt start off with a BMS and ADD ON - i may not have done it at all - i think its great - how long they can last the cells this way - i dont know but shirley does and has packs still going with a BMS -

its true - who cares really how long they last - 6 years is not good enough ?

just pick the best BMS you can - wont be 100% perfect to the needs - for an ADD ON - i think users will be happy - plug and play and extend there range -

from there - they may be inclined to do the whole chair - the users i may encounter most likely wont do the whole chair - maybe not even an ADD ON - its too bad - they will never know -

i have two ADD On i dont use anymore - 36ah - and 45ah - i may keep the 45ah - in case i may need the cells - same as my 105ah pack - 15ah headways - and can lend it to a friend if he wants to ride with me one day - he will need it

the 36ah - i may give to someone who wants to try it - and maybe have to rewire it for a BMS now - could use the BMS i have here still once i find it - -

[expresso]

i charge once a week with my indoor chair - 60ah add on - lead in there is OLD - and maybe not even MK - cant remember now

it will out last me - i end up putting back about 30ah when i recharge - i use the chair indoors only - or very short outdoor for doc. visits

the ADD ON keeps it going - by the time the batteries are really not good enough for indoor use - i most likely wont even have the chair - it be so OLD -

i end up giving the whole chair away - like i did with one chair already - move on with a new chair - build a new pack and keep rolling -

[expresso]

https://bmsbattery.com/lifepo4/378-1570 ... t-100_200a

tell me whats wrong with this one - how bad can it be - does it have any good points ?

[shirley_hkg]

Charge over volt protection @3.9V

Idiot .

[fishinjunky]

When I build a 200ah pack or more havnt decided yet for the bounder I'm going to give one of the IChargers a go. But which model? Or a hyperion but which Model? What would you guys choose in my situation? I'm to afraid of being stranded for a bms I've had a few life threatening situations from being stranded because of other reasons.

[expresso]

yeah 3.9 would be too high -

thats the BMS i have in the bounder - its not used that often - i charge it with the PL8 to try to keep it balance for next summer

reason i have the 80ah ADD ON also - if the main pack stops - i wont

i have reached the end when i did 68 miles - running off my ADD ON -

i feel they made it high in an effort to keep it balance - in doing so - they overcharge them each time - reason they only give 3 year warranty on the battery -

for sure it will make it 3 years - its 3 years i have the chair already - i asked them when would i need it replaced -

when you feel you are loosing range and not lasting long enough - then replace it -

not sure insurance would even pay when time comes - had a hard time getting a new cushion - imagine the pack - $3000 or more i think they charge -

worse case i build one for it - would be better off anyway - i can remove the ADD ON if i fill it with 200ah -

it dosnt balance for long on there charger - maybe 15 min at most -

[expresso]

When I build a 200ah pack or more havnt decided yet for the bounder I'm going to give one of the IChargers a go. But which model? Or a hyperion but which Model? What would you guys choose in my situation? I'm to afraid of being stranded for a bms I've had a few life threatening situations from being stranded because of other reasons.

it needs to be 8S for sure -

https://www.progressiverc.com/products/icharger-x8

sounds good - at least 30A and 2A balance - thats all i know about it - have to charge LifePo - have to be sure of that also

BM will know more

[Burgerman]

Unless I buy one I cant be sure of anything.

I do know that they did a newer firmware on the latest "bigger" iChargers that finally allowed you to set a low enough termination current for large LiFePO4 packs. So as long as this follows suit it MIGHT be good enough.

But as always the devil is in the details.

The strange thing is about many hobby chargers is that they do not allow you to set an actual termination current as a fixed setting. And thats what we need really. Instead they let you set it as a (now low enough) percentage of the charge Amps. Which means that every time you change charge amps you need to then reset the percentage of that to give you the correct termination current.

Now. They only allow you to go to 1% minimum on ichargers. (used to be 5%!)

Lets say on the PL8 I wanted to set ermnation point to 1/500thC. Which I usually do initially on large LiFe packs. That means I would choose a termination of a 500th of its capacity in Ah. On a 100Ah pack that would be 200mA. And it doesnt matter if I charge at 5A or 40A because that 200mA is always the point the charge ends, which is correct.

On the iChargers, if you charge at only 10A and choose 1 percent termination, it will terminate at 100mA. So you must choose 2% instead. Or it may never end. Now it terminates correctly at 2% of the 10A charge rate or 200mA.

What happens if you charge at 40A? Well you are buggered. It will terminate at 400mA even when set to 1%... That will still charge it fully. But you may end up with a slightly too short CV stage. And so incomplete balance which takes a little longer held at this voltage. Some cells will fall faster after charge. It should still be OK if the pack is healthy. Just dont use the default settings!!! Of 10% or whatever.

It used to be minimum setting of 5% till this firmware update. And so useless to us. But now that at least works albeit far from convinient to set up properly. There may be other unknown traps, as the devil is in the details. And I dont have one so cant say. But I expect it will be OK. With one proviso. Reliability. Those iChargers are not renowned for it. But cheap so, get a couple if it works OK.

[Burgerman]

Expresso is probably ordering one now...

[expresso]

Expresso is probably ordering one now...

no 2


i have time before i get a new charger of any kind - but still never know - things happen all at once sometimes

[expresso]

Expresso is probably ordering one now...

you should get one and test it - since you know the most and know what to test for look for etc, maybe you can help them make it a better charger than the PL 8

which model are you referring to ?

[expresso]

this is how it all started -

first pack 36ah - BMS - i used it this way for a month maybe before i realized - i had to do lithium - and started getting what i needed - charger PSU - etc,

but if i didnt do it first with a BMS ADD on etc, i wouldnt have done it most likely - and i did like the conveince of plug and play also then - i am fine now - but not everyone will do what we do - - and dont care either way - if its plug and play - most will try -

[Burgerman]

I was refering to the one in the link above.
I dont want an iCharger myself. No PC control etc.

[expresso]

I was refering to the one in the link above.
I dont want an iCharger myself. No PC control etc.

i see the link goes to icharger x8

[Burgerman]

https://www.progressiverc.com/collectio ... er-4010duo

Is the only one I would take seriously. The only one I could ever want to buy.
And the only one I saw in real life and had a play with. It was another club members charger at the flying site. Its a dual charger though, which we dont need. (although useful at the flying field). As many models use 2 or more batts and also the TX to charge. But that can be ignored.

Or paralleled together as one bigger charger which with a large pack can be useful as it allows up to 70A charge. And more importantly 2.4A balancing capability. But if you only charge at 40A like the PL8 it allows more headroom/reserve so probably helps the thing survive longer. Because one issue with iChargers is that they specificaly dont support big non hobby batteries. Because they have had reliability issues. So if it blows up, it did so while charging your HELI batteries. Then warranty! Buy there extended 3 year warranty.

The main reason to buy this one over the other ichargers is that once you have set it up to do so, and once you siamesed the two sides as one charger, you have a marvelous 2.4A balance capability. Which is twice as fast as the PL8 even. And makes all those BMS things at 50mA look rediculous.

Always power up the power supply before connecting charger. And power up the charger before connecting battery. Then you should never have reliability issues. That didnt matter much on PL8s because they were well protected against these things.

There are many iChargers. I think the menu structure etc is common across all of them. But I dont know any details. And no PC software to configure or control the charger. Only firmware updater. So at a minor risk of there being some safety nazi traps in there, and with the very hard to configure termination current issue, now allowing 1% which should be low enough at high currents I would risk buying one. But I dont need one!

[biscuit]

Burgerman, the answer to your test question. I really hope it's not making you feel like the zombies are crowding around to suck out your brains when I ask for an explanation. But it would help to understand.

I'm hearing you about not being interested in any BMS, that they are totally unhelpful to batteries, killing them because they aren't integrated with the charger. Etc etc. But

Please can you explain what it was you saw about that BMS to tell you this, if we find it on the ali express page, or if it is so blindingly obvious that the seller didn't need to mention it. It still escapes me.

Because it balances al the time whenever theres a 2mV difference. And it does that all of the time regardless of voltage. It PRESUMES a cell with 3 or 4mV higher or lower has a different state of charge.

[Burgerman]

Because it balances all the time. Regardless of voltage. At least thats what it says.

[ICEUK]

Just took delivery of a brand new powerlab 8. I found a model shop in Germany that had one left (-: 3 pl8's should see me out.

[Burgerman]

You did good!

[expresso]

wheres Terry ? i got myself a few cables left from online store - 2 12 inch and 2 36 inch in case i need to make some charge cables down the line - thats all they had left in stock

[slomobile]

What do y'all think of this buck boost charger?
https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/do ... 00A-EN.pdf

it can be programmed to convert 12v -> 24v or 24v -> 12v, or set the output wherever you like between 10 - 30v. I thought it would allow me to carry a smallish 12v add on LiFePo4 pack to power my electronics and provide 12->24v chair charging in case I get stranded too far out. Accepting input from either a car alternator or any chair charger, it could charge either set of batteries.

Also found this one interesting https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/do ... ted-EN.pdf
or
https://www.victronenergy.com/dc-dc-con ... s-isolated

[Burgerman]

Cant for the life of me think why one would be useful? Unless you have a Euro 5 or Euro 6 engine.

I charge my 24V chairs directly with much higher efficiency straight from any 12V or 24V vehicle. Its alternator is CC/CV charger.

And a hobby charger like the PL8 can charge from 10V to 30V supply, any battery from 1 cell upwards any chemistry, inc cell balancing a lithium pack when it charges. At up to 40A.

[slomobile]

[YouTube]https://youtu.be/jgoIocPgOug[/YouTube]
You ever let the smoke out?
The big difference between the video and your situation is you still have the lead starting battery in your car as a buffer to supply the insufficient amps from the alternator at the beginning.

[Burgerman]

I wouldnt even consider charging lithium directly from my alternator. Or even buying a lead brick drop in lithium block with a built in BMS either. I run a mile from those things.

When I charge my 8S Lithium packs I do so with the PL8. In a vehicle. When I charge a chair with lead, I just plug it in as a 12/24V split charge system. And have dine so for 14 years in that van without any issues. Yes at idle. Its 140A alternator doesent get warm.

But I also have issues with that video.
1. Practically everything with an alternator on the roads today is not a standalone alternator. They all use a managed system built into the engine management system. A charge controller if you prefer. It limits current/rpms and charge rates to safe levels. They are talking about a system on a BOAT. A standalone alternator such as found on cars and trucks on the 70s 80s and 90s.

And 2. most cars idle near 800rpm. Alternators are geared in a way that they reach 13k to 18k rpm at the redline. A say 5500rpm in my van. So at IDLE the alternator is doing at least 3x to 4x engine RPM. So that wouldnt be a problem anyway.

I didnt watch the last few minutes but I suspect they are going to try and sell you a fancy alternator or a charge control system you dont need.

[fishinjunky]

I think these are the chargers on the market with some potential for us however none is ideal.

Icharger 4010duo ( I'm currently testing this one)

Icharger 308 duo

Icharger x8

Icharger x12

Icharger dx8 duo ( coming out soon. I'm excited for this one, I'll be purchasing one when they're released)

ISDT P30