What batteries do you recommend

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What batteries do you recommend

Postby bumbaloto » 31 Oct 2021, 10:34

Hello. I bought a PARAVAN PR50 wheelchair. I need to replace the batteries, but I can't find the original ones. My question is: Can I put 12V 33Ah on this cart? Thanks.


This is the battery data I'm asking about

Number of cells 6
Voltage 12
Capacity 33Ah at 10 p.m. at 1.80V per cell at 25 ℃
Weight Approximately 10.2 kg (fluctuation of + 3%)
Internal resistance Approx. 9.0 m2
Attachments
pr-50.jpg
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Re: What batteries do you recommend

Postby Burgerman » 31 Oct 2021, 12:09

Are you SURE that chair can only fit 33Ah batteries? Thats way too small for both sensible range, and garantees the battery has a very hard life and so doesent last long.

If so then we need the battery type such as 22nf or grp24 or whatever. Or the physical size of the maximum that will fit to advise.

If the biggest batts really are 33Ah sized, and bigger wont fit then they designed a chair that will always have battery and torque problems. And probably uses the small U1 Deep Cycle sized batts.
Whatever you buy in U1 size, will struggle.

IF U1 are the only size that will fit you need these https://www.wheelchairauthority.com/MK- ... -sld-g.htm
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Re: What batteries do you recommend

Postby rover220 » 31 Oct 2021, 14:02

Haze hzy ev12 55 are the biggest you'll fit. 33ah much to small and will last 5 mins.
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Re: What batteries do you recommend

Postby bumbaloto » 31 Oct 2021, 15:32

Burgerman wrote:Are you SURE that chair can only fit 33Ah batteries? Thats way too small for both sensible range, and garantees the battery has a very hard life and so doesent last long.

If so then we need the battery type such as 22nf or grp24 or whatever. Or the physical size of the maximum that will fit to advise.

If the biggest batts really are 33Ah sized, and bigger wont fit then they designed a chair that will always have battery and torque problems. And probably uses the small U1 Deep Cycle sized batts.
Whatever you buy in U1 size, will struggle.

IF U1 are the only size that will fit you need these https://www.wheelchairauthority.com/MK- ... -sld-g.htm


These are the original batteries - AGM - M22NF SLD A 12V 55Ah C20.


They offer me these

Number of cells 6
Voltage 12
Capacity 33Ah at 10 p.m. at 1.80V per cell at 25 ℃
Weight Approximately 10.2 kg (fluctuation of + 3%)
Internal resistance Approx. 9.0 m2
Terminal F11 (M6) / F7 (M8)
Maximum output voltage 330A (5 sec)
Amperage for cold ignition 230A
Maximum charging voltage 9.9A

The question is whether they get up and whether they will not damage the wheelchair

I only use a wheelchair at home
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Re: What batteries do you recommend

Postby bumbaloto » 31 Oct 2021, 15:45

bumbaloto wrote:
Burgerman wrote:Are you SURE that chair can only fit 33Ah batteries? Thats way too small for both sensible range, and garantees the battery has a very hard life and so doesent last long.

If so then we need the battery type such as 22nf or grp24 or whatever. Or the physical size of the maximum that will fit to advise.

If the biggest batts really are 33Ah sized, and bigger wont fit then they designed a chair that will always have battery and torque problems. And probably uses the small U1 Deep Cycle sized batts.
Whatever you buy in U1 size, will struggle.

IF U1 are the only size that will fit you need these https://www.wheelchairauthority.com/MK- ... -sld-g.htm


These are the original batteries - AGM - M22NF SLD A 12V 55Ah C20.


They offer me these

Number of cells 6
Voltage 12
Capacity 33Ah at 10 p.m. at 1.80V per cell at 25 ℃
Weight Approximately 10.2 kg (fluctuation of + 3%)
Internal resistance Approx. 9.0 m2
Terminal F11 (M6) / F7 (M8)
Maximum output voltage 330A (5 sec)
Amperage for cold ignition 230A
Maximum charging voltage 9.9A

The question is whether they get up and whether they will not damage the wheelchair

I only use a wheelchair at home


physical size of the maximum that will fit. +/- 1см.
Length - 22.5 cm
Width - 13 cm
Height - 16 cm
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Re: What batteries do you recommend

Postby rover220 » 31 Oct 2021, 15:47

I used to work for the UK importer of these chairs.

Do not fit 33ah batteries unless you wish to spend your life worrying about range.

Fit batteries of the same size to the ones I have suggested.

You could fit mk 22nf but they are a tight squeeze and the paravan factory no longer supply with the 22nf size.
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Re: What batteries do you recommend

Postby Burgerman » 01 Nov 2021, 08:26

Do not fit 33ah batteries unless you wish to spend your life worrying about range.

And very short service life. And low torque. You must fit the biggest physical battery that will fit the space available.

This applies to every chair. But is especially important here where even the largest size is far too small anyway.

rover, says:
Haze hzy ev12 55 are the biggest you'll fit. 33ah much to small and will last 5 mins.


Do that.
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Re: What batteries do you recommend

Postby bumbaloto » 01 Nov 2021, 12:57

Thank you very much for your answers.
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Re: What batteries do you recommend

Postby martin007 » 01 Nov 2021, 18:51

What battery charger do you have?
My recommendation is to place the batteries with the highest capacity (ah) that fit in the space provided for them.
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Re: What batteries do you recommend

Postby bumbaloto » 03 Dec 2021, 19:23

martin007 wrote:What battery charger do you have?
My recommendation is to place the batteries with the highest capacity (ah) that fit in the space provided for them.


Hi, this is the charger I use.
LEAB chAmp 24v charger
Attachments
leab-kfz-einbauladegeraet-champ-2412-gel-agm.jpg
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Re: What batteries do you recommend

Postby ex-Gooserider » 04 Dec 2021, 03:52

That looks like one of the various 'mobility brick' type chargers, and you can find plenty of discussions about them in other threads here. In short they do a very bad job and will probably shorten the life of your batteries. They claim to charge all lead acid chemistries, which is NOT POSSIBLE to do properly as there is no way for the charger to tell what kind of battery it's connected to, and the different types have slight but importantly different requirements for charge voltages.

Lead bricks and charging them is generally a difficult problem, as it is hard to find an appropriate charger, especially one that is 'plug & forget'. It is a bit hard to figure out, but the best available is the "Shirley ZXD2400" charger / power supply sold through one of our members here. This is one of the many reasons we are such fans of converting to Lithium power - it is technically a bit challenging, and expensive initially, but will give much greater range and lower long term costs so is well worth it.

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Re: What batteries do you recommend

Postby bumbaloto » 12 Dec 2021, 15:26

Hello, after a long search for suitable batteries, I found these. - EV12-33 F11(M6) 12V 33Ah

https://tristan02.com/products-bg/%D1%8 ... la-cyclic/

https://www.ritarpower.com/uploads/uedi ... V12-33.pdf

I know they are weak, but there are no others. My question is, are they suitable even if they are weak
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Re: What batteries do you recommend

Postby Dan » 12 Dec 2021, 15:57

What country do you live in?
Rover, a dealer said "Haze hzy ev12 55 are the biggest you'll fit"
Check measurements first.
https://www.bblbatteries.co.uk/product/ ... 9-7ah-gel/

I think Haze is a Chinese company.
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Re: What batteries do you recommend

Postby rover220 » 12 Dec 2021, 16:38

33ah are a laughable size to fit. Even 55ah are too small really but you can't go bigger.
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Re: What batteries do you recommend

Postby martin007 » 12 Dec 2021, 18:14

Hi bumbaloto.

Can I ask you a question?
Do you have money problems?

Buying the 33ah batteries is a waste of money.
Cheap is expensive.
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Re: What batteries do you recommend

Postby Dan » 12 Dec 2021, 22:03

You also asked if the 33Ah batteries would work.

The 12V 33Ah batteries in series for 24V if they can deliver enough Amps will work.
But you can only realistically get about 10Ah a day out of them before you need to charge them. You could get maybe 15Ah a day out of them but I don't think they would last more than a few months.
The good news is that the chair is for home use only. You should be able to give them a top up charge through the day, that will help the batteries last longer.

How well they do will depend on a lot of things like.
How heavy you and the chair are, what type of flooring you have and how often you stop and start or turn.

Others may disagree.
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Re: What batteries do you recommend

Postby rover220 » 12 Dec 2021, 22:05

Pr50 will be around 200kg chair only.
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Re: What batteries do you recommend

Postby Burgerman » 12 Dec 2021, 22:17

And indoors is where you suck out huge currents turning in place. Not sure that 33ah batts will give enough torque for good control indoors. Meaning it will stall easily.
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Re: What batteries do you recommend

Postby biscuit » 12 Dec 2021, 23:20

The question is whether they get up and whether they will not damage the wheelchair

It is normal for a wheelchair to have a controller which can take a voltage of approx. 24V (slightly more, perhaps), which is produced by two 12V batteries connected in series. So to not damage your chair, that is what you should be careful about. Apart from that, you are best fitting however many Ah you have space for.
And to make the batteries last better, try to get a good charger and follow the advice given by the experts on here about charging.
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Re: What batteries do you recommend

Postby bumbaloto » 14 Dec 2021, 22:38

martin007 wrote:Hi bumbaloto.

Can I ask you a question?
Do you have money problems?

Buying the 33ah batteries is a waste of money.
Cheap is expensive.

No. There is no problem with money. I have money. There are no batteries of this size

physical size of the maximum that will fit. +/- 1см.
Length - 22.5 cm - 220мм
Width - 13 cm - 130мм
Height - 16 cm - 160мм
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Re: What batteries do you recommend

Postby bumbaloto » 14 Dec 2021, 22:53

Dan wrote:What country do you live in?
Rover, a dealer said "Haze hzy ev12 55 are the biggest you'll fit"
Check measurements first.
https://www.bblbatteries.co.uk/product/ ... 9-7ah-gel/

I think Haze is a Chinese company.



The problem is in the size - Dimensions of the article 22.9 x 13.8 x 21.3 centimeters

22.9 - ОК. 13.8 - ОК. 21.3 - Not ok.
16 centimeters - OK
------------
22.5 x 13 x 16 - These are the dimensions
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Re: What batteries do you recommend

Postby rover220 » 15 Dec 2021, 08:02

Why are you not listening. I used to work for the uk importer of the Paravan chairs, I have fitted umpteen sets of the batteries I suggested, haze hzy ez 12 55
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Re: What batteries do you recommend

Postby bumbaloto » 15 Dec 2021, 09:33

rover220 wrote:Why are you not listening. I used to work for the uk importer of the Paravan chairs, I have fitted umpteen sets of the batteries I suggested, haze hzy ez 12 55


Thank you man for your help and time. Just the size you offer worries me. - 229x138xh213mm

Is that what you offer?

https://www.blubattery.com/home/batteri ... gp.8018.uw
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Re: What batteries do you recommend

Postby rover220 » 15 Dec 2021, 09:56

bumbaloto wrote:
rover220 wrote:Why are you not listening. I used to work for the uk importer of the Paravan chairs, I have fitted umpteen sets of the batteries I suggested, haze hzy ez 12 55


Thank you man for your help and time. Just the size you offer worries me. - 229x138xh213mm

Is that what you offer?

https://www.blubattery.com/home/batteri ... gp.8018.uw


Yes, they are tight but do fit.
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Re: What batteries do you recommend

Postby shirley_hkg » 15 Dec 2021, 14:21

bumbaloto wrote:These are the original batteries - AGM - M22NF SLD A 12V 55Ah C20.


They offer me these

I only use a wheelchair at home



You did say the originals are 22NF .

What are you worrying then ?
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Re: What batteries do you recommend

Postby YellowBuzzaroundEX » 22 Dec 2021, 12:49

My class 2 mobility scooter uses two U1 batteries. Over the years, I've used the following AGM batterues: MK (marginally acceptable), Discover EV (excellent), Fullriver DC (terrible), and Powersonic PDC (excellent).

My Powersonic PDC are 3.5 years old and still going strong. Two sets of MK each only lasted me a year. Two sets of Fullriver each lasted 2 months. The Discover EV were as good as Powersonic PDC, but Discover costs more.

I've been very happy with Powersonic PDC batteries. They do great on 4 to 6 miles round trips, including 2 hills each 1 block long. They can go 6 miles at full throttle in my mobility scooter, or 9 miles if I go slower. They are reasonably priced at my local battery store.

I use a Soneil charger and it works well.
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Re: What batteries do you recommend

Postby Burgerman » 22 Dec 2021, 13:43

Your soneil charger has a 3 stage profile designed for AGM batteries. And it undercharges those too, unless you leave on charge 16 hours or so every time long after the green appears. That same profile means you will destroy the best battery you used, the MK Gel, which has a better cycle life (500+ cycles at 80% DoD) capability and lower impedance (best performing) than any AGM that is in your list. But you need a real gel capable charger to achieve that. Yours is not. It over volts, and undercharges gel. Unless you are talking about MK AGM which is as bad as all the other ones in your list.

Your favorite powersonic in the grp24 size compared to MK Gel to compare.
MK Gel = 4mOhm impedance. The measure of battery quality and its peformance.
Powesonic = 6.6mOhm so much worse. 2/3rds as good. Not as bad as some though... But pretty crap in a powerchair. Even if OK in a scooter.

MK Gel = 500 to 550 cycles = if correctly charged.
Powersonic = 350 to 380 cycles best at the same 80% DoD level... So lasts a little over half as long.

https://www.power-sonic.com/wp-content/ ... ations.pdf
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Re: What batteries do you recommend

Postby LROBBINS » 22 Dec 2021, 20:16

The post above referred to MK AGM which he said were awful - as you already know they are.
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Re: What batteries do you recommend

Postby Burgerman » 22 Dec 2021, 20:28

I am not sure that he/she is aware that there is 2 flavours of MK. (she I think?). Thats why I said unless you mean the MK AGM. But I am not sure that the poster knows there are two different ones. Either way it shows the difference beween the gel and the AGM versions of the MK battery. And I dont think its worth actually fitting a gel into a scooter anyway unless its really used every day and deeply cycled. Due to cost. As they dont need high currents like a powerchair does. I was just pointing out the difference.
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Re: What batteries do you recommend

Postby YellowBuzzaroundEX » 22 Dec 2021, 20:47

I am a he. I'm aware there are MK AGM and MK Gel. In my post "I said I have tried the following AGM batteries..."

Yes my Soneil charger was/is used with all of the AGM batteries I mentioned. It does a good job charging and yes I do leave it on the charger for 18+ hours. I usually charge for 24 to 48 hrs. I only use my scooter when I leave the house. Indoors I can still walk well enough in my home.

I also own a UPG charger that's optimized for gel batteries, but I don't own any gel batteries.

My Powersonic PDC (AGM) are 3.5 years old and still doing great for 6 miles roundtrips (including 2 hills each 1 block long). These batteries will probably last me 5 years with good performance, but that's in a scooter, not a wchair.
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