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Trackmaster track chair

Postby fishinjunky » 07 Dec 2021, 18:51

I'm planning on getting a track chair through the department of vocational rehabilitation. My goal is to be able to hold group mushroom forays tutorials locally. To be able to get to the tough spots I'll need a tracked chair

I'm looking at the trackmaster. However I know for full potential it would be best to fit it with 48v or higher roboteq electronics and the biggest lifepo4 pack possible. Then spend who knows how long working out a script for it. That's if the one everyone is using will work on a track chair.

What do you all think of trackmaster compared to other track chairs besides the ziesel that things on another level

https://trackmastermobility.com/

https://youtu.be/HtAZZbKuLJc
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Re: Trackmaster track chair

Postby martin007 » 07 Dec 2021, 19:50

How much does the lowest model cost?
What is the lifespan of the tracks?
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Re: Trackmaster track chair

Postby Burgerman » 07 Dec 2021, 19:53

I think that a mobility controller can just about cope with a wheelchair on flat ground with casters so it turns easily. And anything with tracks is a (huge) step too far for any mobility controller. In order to make it turn in place at all, they have reduced its speed to 4mph. And so forwards and backwards will be fine, any attempt to turn will max out amps and roll back power and it may or may not turn. When it fails it will rapidly roll back power to say 50A and then wont turn at all and will barely move.

Take a test ride. Turn in place just 20 degrees. And then back. Reapeat a few times. Try it on dry clean road and on grass. When it stops moving and turning at all, thats the thermal rollback kicking in so it doesent burn out the controller.

Test and then tell me I am wrong.
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Re: Trackmaster track chair

Postby fishinjunky » 07 Dec 2021, 21:11

Burgerman wrote:I think that a mobility controller can just about cope with a wheelchair on flat ground with casters so it turns easily. And anything with tracks is a (huge) step too far for any mobility controller. In order to make it turn in place at all, they have reduced its speed to 4mph. And so forwards and backwards will be fine, any attempt to turn will max out amps and roll back power and it may or may not turn. When it fails it will rapidly roll back power to say 50A and then wont turn at all and will barely move.

Take a test ride. Turn in place just 20 degrees. And then back. Reapeat a few times. Try it on dry clean road and on grass. When it stops moving and turning at all, thats the thermal rollback kicking in so it doesent burn out the controller.

Test and then tell me I am wrong.


I agree that's what I was concerned about. And it would be even worse turning on hills in rough terrain. I wonder what my best option would be. I can only move one arm no hand or finger function. The bounder it great but I need something to go that next step. I'm not to concerned with speed sence it will be for offroad only. I was thinking track chair for the stability and climbing abilities but like you said I'm concerned with the turning
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Re: Trackmaster track chair

Postby fishinjunky » 07 Dec 2021, 21:13

martin007 wrote:How much does the lowest model cost?
What is the lifespan of the tracks?


I'm not sure about the base model but I think if I got one custom to my needs it would be around 30k
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Re: Trackmaster track chair

Postby Burgerman » 08 Dec 2021, 05:00

Remember that all those seatin opions add around 100 kg to an already inadequately powered chair. Be careful what you choose.
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Re: Trackmaster track chair

Postby swalker » 08 Dec 2021, 05:02

I have mostly seen videos of track chairs on flat ground without significant obstructions. I believe there is a reason for this.

First, as you already know, they are under powered. I don't know of a single commercial off the shelf solution that has adequate power. You will essentially be building a custom wheelchair.

Next, when crossing an obstacle such as a downed (small diameter) tree, the track chair climbs up it until the balance point is reached and then tips down the other side. In practice, it cannot overcome much of such an obstacle because of its short wheelbase.

In contrast, my four wheel drive wheelchair can approach an obstacle so that only 1 wheel starts over it. I have made it over some surprising obstacles this way.

Next, consider how you will transport the track chair. The ones I looked at were too wide to fit on the lift in my wheelchair van. I would have needed to get a trailer or a pickup truck with a hoist to put the track chair in the bed.

After considering all this, I abandoned my search for a track chair and went with a four wheel drive chair. My four wheel drive chair certainly has limitations, but has allowed me to get into the woods (primarily on trails).

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Re: Trackmaster track chair

Postby fishinjunky » 08 Dec 2021, 14:29

Burgerman wrote:Remember that all those seatin opions add around 100 kg to an already inadequately powered chair. Be careful what you choose.


Thats another issue I didn't consider thanks BM. 30k is alot for a underpowered heavy chair. And When offroading I will need to make multiple tight turn which is a problem like you said.I just can't justify the it in my mind. I'm not sure what would be my best option for a dedicated outdoor rough terrain only chair. I'm going to take my time and find what's best for me in this situation.

Hey BM what your thoughts? which chair do you think would be my best choice for really rough terrain and can go through around 12" of water or mud?
But it would be really awsome if you designed me a offroad only chair with all the power I need. That would be badass. A BM designed offroader beast haha I wish :worship
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Re: Trackmaster track chair

Postby fishinjunky » 08 Dec 2021, 14:36

swalker wrote:I have mostly seen videos of track chairs on flat ground without significant obstructions. I believe there is a reason for this.

First, as you already know, they are under powered. I don't know of a single commercial off the shelf solution that has adequate power. You will essentially be building a custom wheelchair.

Next, when crossing an obstacle such as a downed (small diameter) tree, the track chair climbs up it until the balance point is reached and then tips down the other side. In practice, it cannot overcome much of such an obstacle because of its short wheelbase.

In contrast, my four wheel drive wheelchair can approach an obstacle so that only 1 wheel starts over it. I have made it over some surprising obstacles this way.

Next, consider how you will transport the track chair. The ones I looked at were too wide to fit on the lift in my wheelchair van. I would have needed to get a trailer or a pickup truck with a hoist to put the track chair in the bed.

After considering all this, I abandoned my search for a track chair and went with a four wheel drive chair. My four wheel drive chair certainly has limitations, but has allowed me to get into the woods (primarily on trails).

Steve


I agree these are the same issues concerning me. The trackmaster S1 comes with narrow tracks under 30" width for easier transport but then the narrow track cut back on it's offroad abilities. So I transport is another issue because I would want the wide tracks.

Which 4x4 chair do you have? Is it the x8 whats your thoughts any recommendations? I need something for really rough terrain and can go through around 12" of water or mud?
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Re: Trackmaster track chair

Postby fishinjunky » 08 Dec 2021, 16:27

Few possible 4x4 options instead of tracks. Amy thoughts?

1. Extreme x8 by Magic mobility
https://www.magicmobility.com.au/wheelc ... heelchair/

2. Cajun commando by Cajun Mobility
https://cajunmobility.com/products.html

3. Meyra Optimus 2 rs. By Meyra
https://www.meyra.com/wheelchairs/produ ... roduct-47/
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Re: Trackmaster track chair

Postby AgGuy » 08 Dec 2021, 16:45

I went through this same decision process for my off-road needs. My work involves being in farm fields regardless of soil conditions. I decided a track chair was too slow, may not turn adequately, and would be a rougher ride. I opted for a 4wd. Through painful experience, I learned that all 4wd's are not created equal. I now have a 4 wheel drive that works perfectly for my needs. It has the traction and flotation to handle mud just fine. As long as the frame is not resting on the ground, it has always kept moving. I haven't been stuck yet, but have left 100 ft of 4 inch ruts. It zero-turns nicely in most conditions, but struggles a bit on concrete. Overall, I'm very happy with it. The price was a fraction of what you mentioned for the tracked chair. The manufacturer is in Louisiana, and the owner was great to deal with. https://cajunmobility.com/ I have no affiliation with them.
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Re: Trackmaster track chair

Postby Burgerman » 08 Dec 2021, 20:52

If I was going to use an off road chair I would go with something like that. Be aware that as mentioned trying to turn on a dry clean road for e.g will suck every amp possible and heat up motors and controller in rapid time and it may or may not actually turn depending on weight and conditions. They could have gone with 4mph motors in place of 6 and gained 50% extra torque and much less heating and battery drain at the same time. So 6mph motors a bad choice.
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Re: Trackmaster track chair

Postby fishinjunky » 08 Dec 2021, 21:41

Burgerman wrote:If I was going to use an off road chair I would go with something like that. Be aware that as mentioned trying to turn on a dry clean road for e.g will suck every amp possible and heat up motors and controller in rapid time and it may or may not actually turn depending on weight and conditions. They could have gone with 4mph motors in place of 6 and gained 50% extra torque and much less heating and battery drain at the same time. So 6mph motors a bad choice.


You talking about the track chair or a 4x4 chair?
Yea it would be way better to sacrifice the speed for more torque. In the terrain I would be driving in I would be going really slow anyway. And I would be taking a vehicle to transport instead of driving the chair all the way to the spots
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Re: Trackmaster track chair

Postby fishinjunky » 08 Dec 2021, 21:57

Burgerman wrote:If I was going to use an off road chair I would go with something like that. Be aware that as mentioned trying to turn on a dry clean road for e.g will suck every amp possible and heat up motors and controller in rapid time and it may or may not actually turn depending on weight and conditions. They could have gone with 4mph motors in place of 6 and gained 50% extra torque and much less heating and battery drain at the same time. So 6mph motors a bad choice.


BM out of curiosity I would really like to see what general idea design you would do for a rugged offroad chair only. For a c4/c5 level quad with no hand function but can use a joystick no grip. I know you wouldn't but it would still be very interesting to see. If one can dream an had a open budget my dream would be a BM designed custom built offroad chair
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Re: Trackmaster track chair

Postby Burgerman » 08 Dec 2021, 23:16

As you say, I wouldnt. Theres no good solution. So whatever you try would be no better than the stuff already available. And theres hundreds of supposed "off road wheelchairs" most of which are not wheelchairs at all. And so useless indoors or impossible. And those are OK if you really want to drive about in muck and crap. But you will need a trailer, and something to store them in. At which point why mess around with useless heavy batteries at all.
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Re: Trackmaster track chair

Postby fishinjunky » 09 Dec 2021, 13:17

Burgerman wrote:As you say, I wouldnt. Theres no good solution. So whatever you try would be no better than the stuff already available. And theres hundreds of supposed "off road wheelchairs" most of which are not wheelchairs at all. And so useless indoors or impossible. And those are OK if you really want to drive about in muck and crap. But you will need a trailer, and something to store them in. At which point why mess around with useless heavy batteries at all.


thats what i was kind of afraid of. I may end up going with the x8 fitted with 120A R-net and the biggest lithium pack possible as i wouldnt mind traveling some distance in the x8. I would really like to eventaly venture into the deep end of the pool with roboteq an fit it with 48v roboteq electronics but first i would need to fully read the roboteq manual a few times an the roboteq thread a few times to see if its even something I can get wrap my head around an feel confident enough and understand it to be able to install the roboteq as its far from plug an play.
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Re: Trackmaster track chair

Postby Burgerman » 09 Dec 2021, 16:49

Theres much much more to this than just understanding the roboteq manual... Maybe 30x more. Read the full pinned thread at the top before considering it.
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Re: Trackmaster track chair

Postby martin007 » 09 Dec 2021, 21:02

I have a question.
What do you have to do in your powerchair going through mud and water?
I'd rather be away from the mud.
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Re: Trackmaster track chair

Postby swalker » 09 Dec 2021, 21:28

fishinjunky wrote:Which 4x4 chair do you have? Is it the x8 whats your thoughts any recommendations? I need something for really rough terrain and can go through around 12" of water or mud?


I have a Magic Mobility X4, which was the predecessor to the X8.

My X4 uses a Dynamic Controls 80 amp DX power module that is rated to put out 80 amps to each side of the chair (and, of course, there are two motors on each side).

It is a reasonable wheelchair, but the 80 amp DX power module is quite limiting. I encounter thermal rollback quite often. I added a fan to keep the power module a bit cooler and that has really helped. A 120 amp RNet setup would be far superior, but may not be sufficient for some of the trails I would like to do.

I often do a 9.5 mile ride (total of out and back) that gains 1,000 feet in elevation. The chair can often do that without thermal rollback on a cold day. However, on even a moderately warm day of 70 F, thermal rollback was assured before I put in the fan. I have never had a thermal rollback on that ride since I put the fan in.

I have looked very seriously at getting an X8. They cost about $30,000 new and am just not willing to pay that much when the X4 is good enough.

I have looked for used X8 wheelchairs over the last 5 years and have found a couple for less than $10,000, but those did not have the 120 Amp RNet system on them. I am unwilling to pay $12,000 to $15,000 for a used X8, which seems like the current market price.

The US distributor of Magic Mobility wheelchairs used to be Innovation In Motion. However, Sunrise bought Magic Mobility a few years ago and the US distribution deal with Innovation In Motion expired in October of this year. When that happened, Innovation In Motion cleared out their demo wheelchairs for around $10,000 each. Unfortunately, none of those demo wheelchairs were configured appropriately for my needs and getting the seating changed on them would have added many thousands (perhaps well over $10,000). Again, that was a price I was unwilling to pay for a used X8.

I have used a demo X8 and like most things about it better than the X4. The only thing I did not like as well is that the X4 has removable leg canes while the X8 (at least the one I was in) does not. Being able to remove those is essential to getting the X4 to fit into my wheelchair van. I have a full size wheelchair van with a Braun Vangater II lift. The X4 just barely fits on the lift. It will not go on that lift with the leg canes in place.

Also, the X4 cannot make it onto my local buses with the leg canes in place. If I remove the leg canes, I can get the X4 onto any of the local buses, but just barely.

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Re: Trackmaster track chair

Postby fishinjunky » 10 Dec 2021, 03:26

martin007 wrote:I have a question.
What do you have to do in your powerchair going through mud and water?
I'd rather be away from the mud.


For mushroom foraging they like alot of moisture where they grow. I usually avoid mud but its hard to avoid when foraging. Also I need more stability on hills and cross slopes.
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Re: Trackmaster track chair

Postby fishinjunky » 10 Dec 2021, 03:28

swalker wrote:
fishinjunky wrote:Which 4x4 chair do you have? Is it the x8 whats your thoughts any recommendations? I need something for really rough terrain and can go through around 12" of water or mud?


I have a Magic Mobility X4, which was the predecessor to the X8.

My X4 uses a Dynamic Controls 80 amp DX power module that is rated to put out 80 amps to each side of the chair (and, of course, there are two motors on each side).

It is a reasonable wheelchair, but the 80 amp DX power module is quite limiting. I encounter thermal rollback quite often. I added a fan to keep the power module a bit cooler and that has really helped. A 120 amp RNet setup would be far superior, but may not be sufficient for some of the trails I would like to do.

I often do a 9.5 mile ride (total of out and back) that gains 1,000 feet in elevation. The chair can often do that without thermal rollback on a cold day. However, on even a moderately warm day of 70 F, thermal rollback was assured before I put in the fan. I have never had a thermal rollback on that ride since I put the fan in.

I have looked very seriously at getting an X8. They cost about $30,000 new and am just not willing to pay that much when the X4 is good enough.

I have looked for used X8 wheelchairs over the last 5 years and have found a couple for less than $10,000, but those did not have the 120 Amp RNet system on them. I am unwilling to pay $12,000 to $15,000 for a used X8, which seems like the current market price.

The US distributor of Magic Mobility wheelchairs used to be Innovation In Motion. However, Sunrise bought Magic Mobility a few years ago and the US distribution deal with Innovation In Motion expired in October of this year. When that happened, Innovation In Motion cleared out their demo wheelchairs for around $10,000 each. Unfortunately, none of those demo wheelchairs were configured appropriately for my needs and getting the seating changed on them would have added many thousands (perhaps well over $10,000). Again, that was a price I was unwilling to pay for a used X8.

I have used a demo X8 and like most things about it better than the X4. The only thing I did not like as well is that the X4 has removable leg canes while the X8 (at least the one I was in) does not. Being able to remove those is essential to getting the X4 to fit into my wheelchair van. I have a full size wheelchair van with a Braun Vangater II lift. The X4 just barely fits on the lift. It will not go on that lift with the leg canes in place.

Also, the X4 cannot make it onto my local buses with the leg canes in place. If I remove the leg canes, I can get the X4 onto any of the local buses, but just barely.

Steve


Awesome thanks, yea the x8 is expensive .
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Re: Trackmaster track chair

Postby fishinjunky » 10 Dec 2021, 03:32

Burgerman wrote:Theres much much more to this than just understanding the roboteq manual... Maybe 30x more. Read the full pinned thread at the top before considering it.


Yea it's intimidating. And may be beyond what I can do safely without messing it up in someway.
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Re: Trackmaster track chair

Postby Vitolds » 10 Dec 2021, 09:10

Installing a roboteq won't make your mushroom picking trip any better.
48 volts will spin the motors faster, not needed off-road.
Need other motors and gearboxes.
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Re: Trackmaster track chair

Postby Burgerman » 10 Dec 2021, 09:21

The point of the roboteq is that it allows twice the volts. And that means you can keep the slow/6mph speed the same. And have MUCH SHORTER GEARING instead (say intended for 3mph@24V) and still keep the same 6MPH speed as before. With DOUBLE the torque due to shorter gearing, and half the battery drain. So half the motor heat/load too.

In fact you gain more torque still. Because roboteq is 150A rather than 120A and doesent roll back power easily due to 32 mosfets instead of just 16 in a mobility controller. (half the resistance). So you also gain another 20+% on top of that already doubled torque.

All provided top speed remains the same as before.
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Re: Trackmaster track chair

Postby fishinjunky » 10 Dec 2021, 14:46

Burgerman wrote:The point of the roboteq is that it allows twice the volts. And that means you can keep the slow/6mph speed the same. And have MUCH SHORTER GEARING instead (say intended for 3mph@24V) and still keep the same 6MPH speed as before. With DOUBLE the torque due to shorter gearing, and half the battery drain. So half the motor heat/load too.

In fact you gain more torque still. Because roboteq is 150A rather than 120A and doesent roll back power easily due to 32 mosfets instead of just 16 in a mobility controller. (half the resistance). So you also gain another 20+% on top of that already doubled torque.

All provided top speed remains the same as before.


Thanks Bm you answered my question before I even asked it. I was wondering if I could increase torque but leave speed at 6mph.
I just got to get focused and dedicated to learning all about roboteq and take my time no matter how long it takes. And that's if I even have the thinking skills it's going to take to bring everything together correctly.. But down the road If I think I'm understanding things. I would like for you to pick my brain ask me some questions to see if I really do get it.
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Re: Trackmaster track chair

Postby martin007 » 10 Dec 2021, 17:32

My powerchair works at 24 volts.
Would those same motors run (correctly) at 48 volts?
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Re: Trackmaster track chair

Postby Burgerman » 10 Dec 2021, 17:35

Yes safely WITH CORRECT control. And for off road REDUCED GEARING to reduce curent at a given load/speed. See what we used, lenny wrote this:
Without such a control script the roboteq is completely useless.
https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM3-co ... Script.txt
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Re: Trackmaster track chair

Postby LROBBINS » 10 Dec 2021, 19:58

Both Vitold and Burgerman are correct, because you have to think about the IF in what Burgerman said.

If you just double voltage, but don't halve the gear ratio, you will just, as Vitold's says, increase speed, but not torque.

If you can change the gear ratio so that at 24V it goes 3 mph instead of 6, then raising the voltage to 48 will bring you back to 6mph but with the higher torque of the greater gear reduction. Getting a different set of gears into an existing motor may be much more difficult than all the work in using a Roboteq (and there's quite a bit of work there).

On the other hand, there is a difference that could be important between an Rnet 120 at 24V and a Roboteq at the same 24V. The Rnet can handle 120 Amps per channel for just a few seconds (I don't remember how many). That may be enough for a high-load maneuver such as a turn in place, but it might not be enough to get you out of a muddy bog. The Roboteq we've been using can handle 150 Amps for two minutes - 25% more torque for a much longer time and that may be a worthwhile difference even without changing gearcase and voltage.
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Re: Trackmaster track chair

Postby Burgerman » 10 Dec 2021, 20:09

The Roboteq we've been using can handle 150 Amps for two minutes - 25% more torque for a much longer time and that may be a worthwhile difference even without changing gearcase and voltage.


But normal wheelchair motors cant! THIS is where that watts rating thing begins to matter. It does not tell you about the motor power or torque. It tells you that 2 mins at 150A and even 24v will melt it... 24v x 150A =3,500 watts per motor is being delivered... And at stall thats 0% efficiency,all of it is heat. This dosent much matter in a wheelchair as it accelerates fast and so current reduces in an instant. But stuck in mud or trying to turn in place on tracks and you better have high wattage motors...

THAT is why you need low gearing and double the volts. It halves the current. And its the current that destroys the motors... It means that you draw half the amps at the same torque. And yet still have the original speed due to the increaded votage. A win win. You get to have your cake and eat it for free.
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Re: Trackmaster track chair

Postby LROBBINS » 10 Dec 2021, 20:46

And do you have an idea of how one can get that modified gearcase?
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