F5 corpus programming?

[joystic_warrior]

Hello there,

I recently made an order with my local permobil distributor for an F5 corpus.

Now, I have only used an F5 for about 30 minutes and an M5 as well but I immediately noticed that the turning speed was painfully slow in both the F5/M5 in all speed settings, and they do not accelerate as quickly as I'm used to in my (very) old powerchair.
I'm guessing they have programmed them like this for 'safety' reasons as there are users that do not have great control in their hands perhaps but I think they have gone a bit overboard with that..

While I'm sure ill get used to it after a while (when I eventually get my F5 in the coming months), I know for a fact that the slow acceleration/turn speed thing is going to always bother me.

So from what I have read around.. it's not easy to program permobil r-net controllers (especially the newer versions?) with the oem/dealer programmer dongles that you can find around because they use modified r-net firmware.

What are my options? of course I will try to ask my local distributor if they can get a technician that can program it but I'm fairly certain that they won't be able to do it properly.. they only seem to specialize at selling overpriced stuff to people in need lol.
Is there any hope of actually being able to program it myself? as I would very much like to fine-tune it fully for my specific needs.

I have read around in the forums and it seems to be possible to edit a xml file with some settings (?), if that's the case whats the cables/software etc. I would need to attempt something like that?

Any advice would be appreciated

[Dan]

Depending on your joystick choice you could ask them to enable on board programming. That way you can at least change some settings like acceleration and turn acceleration.

[joystic_warrior]

The controller is the standard 3.5" screen controller with bluetooth, unfortunately there was no onboard programming option in the order form that I filled with the distributor.
I suppose it doesn't hurt to ask them, but uhh I don't have high hopes

[swalker]

I have an F5 (2016 model) and a dealer level dongle.

Permobil does their own thing, which limits the changes you can practically make to RNet programming on their wheelchairs.

I have issues with hand control, so the stock steering works fine for me.

There are other parameters that I have changed to better suit my needs. I have worked with NuMotion and the local Permobil rep to try to make changes to the programming. They have not been very successful in doing so. They know some things, but not enough to accomplish what I needed.

By reading a lot I was able to figure out what I needed and was also able to implement those changes with the dealer level dongle. It was not hard to do, but took a bit of research to figure it out.

I would have hated to have to rely on Numotion for this, as they were simply not trained well enough in RNet programming to meet my needs.

I have never been able to get On Board Programming (OBP) enabled on any of my 4 Permobil wheelchairs, even the one with the Omni display.

Steve

[Burgerman]

The reason for that is that even if you did enable it is problematic for a bunch of reasons.

The usual OBP sets all the normal "speed" section parameters in the normal programming settings used by every normal powerchair. But these have some very strange settings on permobil, that do not behave in a normal way. And there are other "speed" settings in the OEM menu version that are really controlling all these things. That menu item is related to permobils own stability/gyro system. Not R-Nets own gyro/stability system. So the only way to change those settings is with a permobil version of the impossible to get OEM programming software. And permobil have many "versions" of firmware that may or may not be compatible with the normal R-net programmer.

We have that impossible to get software. PM me for a copy. It can be used with a dealer dongle. With a workaround. But its not using normal r-net components. Its programming doesent respond like a normal r-net system. And its front drive and so increasing things like turn aceleration and turn speed and even forward aceleration doesent play well with the physics of the unstable front drive platform. And they dont like anyone messing about with the way they have managed to get it to work. And so god only knows what will happen when you mess with it.

This is why I would:
a. never buy a permobil.
b. never buy front drive.

Both things prevent me from having my essential settings that allow me to drive everything accuately and in proportional linear fashion. And permobil just make things impossible to deal with. Fell free to try but dont expect much success.

[johnbae1980]

check PM
If you haven't a special controller like sip & puff or head array but only use CJSM, you can program the file as I sent you.
In the file that I sent, I unlocked the OBP.
so, you need an r-net dongle.

[shirley_hkg]

Otto Bock uses R-net and has specific software too.
Could this treat be applied to it ? It'd be much help if OBP enabled.
R-net OEM dongle is available.
Thanks .

[rover220]

Otto Bock uses R-net and has specific software too.
Could this treat be applied to it ? It'd be much help if OBP enabled.
R-net OEM dongle is available.
Thanks .

Are you sure on the special software? I've never come across it.

[johnbae1980]

Otto Bock uses R-net and has specific software too.
Could this treat be applied to it ? It'd be much help if OBP enabled.
R-net OEM dongle is available.
Thanks .

don't have ottobock r-net pc programmer? you can unlock obp if you have r-net pc programmer.
yes. you can adjust the turning speed on obp menu

[johnbae1980]

I posted the file to unlock OBP
you can program it with dealer level or generic oem pc programmer.

[Burgerman]

Partly.

[shirley_hkg]

Are you sure on the special software? I've never come across it.

No. I didn't lay hands on it yet.

I have a Pgdt R-net OEM dongle.
What else do I need ?
How about the software ?

Maybe I'm wrong that the new OttoBock changed to R-net.

[Burgerman]

I posted the file to unlock OBP
you can program it with dealer level or generic oem pc programmer.

The reason I said partly on permobil, is because it isnt as simple as this.
Permobils control settings is done in an odd way. Because they have their own in house stability/gyro thing... And in the PERMOBIL world theres TWO competing sections to set control response settings. And one feeds its output to the other. They intereact and sometimes badly. So permobil choose the settings in the first section very carefully and then disable OBP so a user cant mess with it. It then sends its output to the SECOND setting section. I will post screenshots to these two different settings section on the Permobil OEM software.

So changing parameters in the OBP can have both no, wild, or unexpected results. It depends on how the 2nd set of programming parameters is configured. So yes you can enable OBP on some permobil systems. Depending on their special firmware version. But not all. And when you do you are only guessing at the result. They do not respond as expected to changes. Those OBP changes (which are only the first part) do not do as you would expect on non permobil chairs. And make their stability systems do strange things. And say increasing turn acceleration can have violently too much affect unless you also change settings in the lower hidden section.

The normal part that OBP shows you:

This is the part that GENERIC software may or may not show, but that really controls your chair. You can always see this with their OEM Permobil software. This is the part hat actually matters.

Both of these must be configured to work together. And they can overide each other or cause exponential changes. They do not do the same as on a non permobil chair.

[Marcelo]

Depending on your joystick choice you could ask them to enable on board programming. That way you can at least change some settings like acceleration and turn acceleration.

Hi Dan, I didn't know you were part of this forum. It will certainly help many brothers in struggle. Friendly hug.

[swalker]

I have had some success altering my wheelchair's behavior by making changes to the RNet parameters in the ESP section (as shown in the second image of Burgerman's post above).

It appears those changes are not absolute, though. I have heard from Permobil sources that their algorithms have the ability to override those parameters. I don't know for sure if this is true, but my experience indicate that it is.

Steve

[Burgerman]

If you ask me its a big complicated mess. I have tried to set up front drive permobils for others, to make them steer properly. And basically you cant!

All they needed to do was use the simple to configure R-Net gyro. Which is actually a tiny self contained device that just plugs into the usual R-Net bus. It appears to work at least as well as the massive DIY permobil box of confusion. And simpler to configure. But that doesent tie you up in permobils job creation scheme, and $$$ income improver does it.

[joystic_warrior]

I see.. I was looking at the parameters in the software and noticed those 2 sections which seem to have the same parameters.. good to know that the ESP section has to do with the permobil gyro stuff.
Perhaps there is a way to turn the gyro stuff off (dunno if that's even a good idea but why not try).

I will definitely be testing the heck out of this in the coming months (perhaps even make comparison videos on how the chair drives with stock programming vs custom).

Luckily I'm not looking to make my chair into the fast and furious nitro wheelie version like Burgerman's chairs (yet) I just need to be able to steer a little bit more reasonably.

[Burgerman]

That will never happen with front drive as you are in an unstable configuration. So in order to try and make it drive as if it doesent want to swap ends a gyro is needed and the faster you go the worse it becomes. To get direct steer, proportional control, like driving a car, or a pen, or a mouse requires you to get rid of all the turn delays.

To do this means on a NORMAL chair that you would set all the turn accelerations to 100. And reduce turn speeds to whatever you wish to control the sensitivity.

So turn acc to 100.
Minimum turn acc to 100.
Turn deceleration to 100.
Minimum turn accel also to 100.
That results in a chair that literally follows the joystick in near real time. With the amount of turn controlled by steer speed. So Max to around 30 to 35. Min to around 10.

And then it should be perfectly accurate and esy to drive. But not with either front drive or permobil...

Dont try this with a permobil...

[joystic_warrior]

Yeah you're right but I think the stability problems with front drive are only a big problem at high speed on uneven surfaces, it shouldn't be a big problem in any indoors scenario (for the most part at least).

This is where profiles will come in handy.. if I'm driving on gravel or any uneven surfaces I could just leave it to default (or mostly default) programming (lets say profile 1) so that it doesn't spin too much out of control.. but if I'm in the mall or basketball court for example which is plenty of space on perfectly flat floors then I could switch to a custom profile (say profile 2) with high acceleration and whatnot.

At any case I think I can get a lot out of the F5 with a couple of custom profiles.. at the very least I'm positive I can improve it quite a bit compared to default programming since the max steering speed and accel. is too conservative.

[Burgerman]

You are mistaking turn accel and min turn accel, and turn deceleration and min turn decel with turn speed. Once those are set to 100 (on a normal chair) it steers instantly, stops steering WHEN YOU SAY SO, and turn speed is usually about perfect at 10 (min) and 35 (max). At ALL speeds. So only one profile required. Thats all I have on my chairs. Because once the thing is setup corectly then you use just one profile for every speed. And in that profile you can choose speeds if you need that. But mines been set to max (5) forever. And its mm perfect even at super slow speeds.

[Swan T.W.]

I see.. I was looking at the parameters in the software and noticed those 2 sections which seem to have the same parameters.. good to know that the ESP section has to do with the permobil gyro stuff.
Perhaps there is a way to turn the gyro stuff off (dunno if that's even a good idea but why not try).

I will definitely be testing the heck out of this in the coming months (perhaps even make comparison videos on how the chair drives with stock programming vs custom).

Luckily I'm not looking to make my chair into the fast and furious nitro wheelie version like Burgerman's chairs (yet) I just need to be able to steer a little bit more reasonably.

Can't the ESP cable just be unplugged to see how it manuvers without the gyro taking control?

[Burgerman]

I think it will give an error but not sure. But you should be able to sop that in progamming. Or the menu option may dissapear? Permobils are a thing that defies conventional R-Net logic. If it doesent, and you dont lose the seating options then you will need to go into the section where all the walls are, and set to 0 and 100 everywhere to unlock it then go and change all the normal settings to something that makes more sense. But that just leaves you with no stability as a front drive chair. So again, program it to steer properly and you will swap ends at speed. And it will plain feel weird even at low speeds. Try driving a rear drive chair backwards at 3 mph for a bit! Its dangerous. You will need to test and find out.

[joystic_warrior]

Hmm so the "Drive Characteristics" under the ESP category unfortunately do not have separate values for each profile.. and I believe these are the values for tuning the gyro stuff.
So profiled gyro is not possible I guess.. darn

Wish I could find more information about what exactly these values do.. I guess I will have to test each value and see how it reacts.. I would assume setting them at 0% disables the gyroscope.

[joystic_warrior]

Ok so reading through the r-net manual I found descriptions for the gyro module (yes I know that's not for the permobil gyro but it gives you the general idea).

PROPORTIONAL GAIN
This parameter affects the rate at which the gyro will respond to fast changes in wheelchair direction to provide stability. If the proportional gain is to low the steering response will be unresponsive and difficult to control.
If the proportional gain is too high, steering control may be too aggressive and introduce steering overshoot.
The programmable range is 0 to 255 where 0 is a very slow response and 250 is a very fast response.

INTEGRAL GAIN
This parameter processes gyro information over a longer period of time and this value influences the straight tracking of a wheelchair to provide directional stability.
The higher the value the stiffer the control, if the value is to high it will introduce steering overshoot and can introduce oscillation into the control loop.
The programmable range is 0 to 255 where 0 is a very slow response rate and 255 is a very fast response rate.

FRONT WHEEL DRIVE
Front Wheel Drive adjusts the operation of the specialist software for Front Wheel Drive Wheelchairs.
This selects specialist software for front wheel driven wheelchairs.
The programmable range is 0% to 100% in steps of 1%.
If set to 0%, then “normal” software for rear wheel driven wheelchairs is employed.
If set to any other value then front wheel drive software is employed. A higher value makes the software more suitable for faster wheelchairs.

In permobil Drive Characteristics we instead have max/min proportional factor, max/min integration factor and max/min differential factor.
If we assume that their gyro is setup in a similar way then that only leaves the differential factor as unknown.

[diedofennui]

I too found my front wheel drive F3 to be undriveable when delivered. I believe Permobil sets the joystick sensitivity/speed super low for people who have limited hand dexterity so when they drive the chair for the first time, they don't injure themselves. The dealer should fix this for you when they deliver the chair. However, mine did not have the knowledge and/or time to do it adequately. This started my obsession to control every part of my chair.

The Permobil ESP module is absolutely required (and I believe always on the chair from the factory) for their front wheel drive chairs. I have removed it as an experiment (the chair reconfigures without error) and was not able to control the chair in the least.

If you wish to know the settings that work for me, I’d be happy to share on this forum.

[joystic_warrior]

If you wish to know the settings that work for me, I’d be happy to share on this forum.

Sure, I'd be interested to know about your settings and your experience with the chair.

[diedofennui]

Sure, I'd be interested to know about your settings and your experience with the chair.

My current chair is a F3 from 2016 and am in the process of obtaining a 2022 F3. My dealer was partially able to make it drive fine but because I have fine motor control of my hands, I wanted control to be precise. After speed refinements and learning how to drive it I can drive in the most congested locations such as convenience stores. I prefer front wheel drive as they handle better outside. Only four wheels and being larger wheels than mid wheels’ small casters make going over street imperfections smoother. I can also get up minor curbs with the larger front wheels.

When I enabled on-board programming on my Permobil version of the R-Net joystick (photo), it does not expose speed settings. If I remember correctly, the previous joysticks were generic R-net and did expose speed settings but even that is worthless if the chair is front-wheel drive as the ESP (gyro) settings are only configured with OEM settings and they layer on top of the regular speed settings. You will need a dongle to make changes or get your dealer to apply setting files.

Joystick.jpg (23.08 KiB) Viewed 807 times

I’ve attached my F3 speed and ESP speed r-net subset file. I use Profile 1 for faster movement and Profile 2 for slower indoors but hardly ever use it.

Hope this helps