WheelchairDriver

Everyone knows about Permobil coming out with their own rebranded Permobil fast charge batteries and 10 amp charger.

So the issue early on was the charger was shorting out the joystick causing it to burn

Permobil knew of the problem but did not proactively reach out to customers that it might have affected but instead waited till customers reached out to their DMEs.

My question is if the charger was shorting out the joystick and shutting off too soon before the batteries were charged and no real record if this happened over weeks or months or longer how would that affect batteries in the long term if they were constantly under charged? 

My question is if the charger was shorting out the joystick and shutting off too soon before the batteries were charged and no real record if this happened over weeks or months or longer how would that affect batteries in the long term if they were constantly under charged?

If a charger charges for less than say 16 hours it is always undercharging the battery. Most do that by design! And they overvolt gel batteries during this charge which also causes severely shortened battery life. Undercharged and overvolted... But if we IGNORE this then:


The charger wasnt shorting anything out.
It was charging normally (actually not correctly but the best we can expect from a generic AGM charger).
The problem is that the connector was too high resistance for the current. Maybe a fraction too loose, or bad plating on the pins or whatever. I have seen this happen on other chargers too. Its not uncommon because that type of connector was originally designed for microphones. With very low currents.

So it got too warm due to ohms law. That doesent mean it was not still charging, or that anything "shorted" out at all. Or that it ended charge early. When you put high current through a connector that has too high impedance/resistance it just gets hot. It doesent really affect the charging much at all. The long thin chars loom, and charge cable have a more significant effect. Its basic electronics or electrics. 10A is a lot for a small connector unless its in perfect condition and so you get some heat. And the plastic melts.

The battery naturally accepts the charge when plugged in and so its 10A initially flows, and as it does so its battry voltage rises to match the charger. As it does so the the current (the thing causing the conector to melt the plastic) falls away from 10A to a tiny fraction of an amp. Typically after a few mins to a couple of hours depending on how discharged this is, it will already be well below 10A. Probably 4 or 5. So the battery charge is fine. Over time it falls further to around a couple of hundred mA. Next to nothing. So no heat. At least as far as it goes with a junky generic charger. No undercharge occurs. Other than that which happens due to bad charger design. So its just not an issue.

All that happens is it takes a tiny fraction longer to charge as the initial inrush current is lower. By very little. If it was much then you would have a fire. And as it charges the connector cools anyway. Its no different to the chairs bus cable getting warm, or the charger cable getting warm and they all do that. Its just that when its concentrated in a couple of mm in the connector it shows up visibly. Dont worry. Your battery is not involved or damaged.

Everyone knows about Permobil coming out with their own rebranded Permobil fast charge batteries and 10 amp charger.

You are suffering from that marketing nonsense again. They are just generic AGM batteries and a cheap 10A charger. Stop reading marketing bull and learn how stuff actually works.

ALL lead batteries used in rehab type chairs can be (and SHOULD BE) charged at a much higher rate than 10A.
Most are ADVISED by the manufacturer to be charged at a high rate in cyclic use as it gets the BULK stage (CC stage) of the charge done faster. And that means the slow CV (absorption) stage has LONGER to be completed in an overnight charge.
But this is nothing new.



Sunrise have been supplying weedy 10A chargers with faster chairs for years for e.g. I have 2x 10A chargers on my bench. Thats still nowhere NEAR enough for a typical group 24 battery. But sadly if you use the stupid 3 pin Neutrix connectors on your powerchair its max limit alowed is 12A rms. Which is far from what a battery manufacturer recommends.

TWENTY THREE (23) Amps is recommended in the GRP24 MK Gel tech charge sheet for E.G. And at a MAX of 13.8 to 14.1V (28.2V room temp for 2 batts) for cyclic use. http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/MK1.pdf

MK state:
Bulk Stage, 1 Maintain Current = 30 A per 100 Ah C20
At max 14.1V


Odyssey AGM say as high as possible AMPS and at 29.4 Volts. I typically charge at 30A next to my bed, 40A next to my computer, and up to 100A in my van as I drive to wack some energy back in fast on my way home.



In ALL cases you MUST charge for at least 16 to 20 hours once a week or more or the batteries will sulfate and die an early death. Because thats how long a FULL charge actually takes regardless of what your mobility charger or joystick tells you. And its required to return the lead sulfate back to the electrolyte.

All via a better (anderson) connector. Do these things, throw away your junk mobility chargers and your batteries will thank you by living many years instead of around 15 to 18 months. And range wont die off in the first few weeks.

Burgerman wrote:

Everyone knows about Permobil coming out with their own rebranded Permobil fast charge batteries and 10 amp charger.

You are suffering from that marketing nonsense again. They are just generic AGM batteries and a cheap 10A charger.

Permobil calls their batteries Gel AGM because they are AGM batteries with a layer of gel on top. I have no idea what the point of that is. Since these are presumably similar to any other AGMs then I'd guess the charge algorithm is closer to being correct than if the chair came with MKs, but if the batteries aren't great to begin with...

Lead bricks are centuries old. Everything in the universe and every possible variation on the theme has been tried, marketed and sold as better... And they are all basically the same. And pretty dismal at that. They all charge and perform pretty much the same. Every possible thing has been tried. None of them are much good and at best make great anchors.

In 2022 they have absolutely no place in any kind of EV. Even on here, a DIY cobbled together lithium battery today gives 500% better range. 5 times the service life. And half the weight in the very same volume and at the same cost. They charge about 16x faster, or can do. Are even cheaper if you compare the same Ah per Ah. And thats even before you look at the 5 to 10 times better service life.

All permobil are doing is exactly the same as all their other marketing nonsense. They are attempting to make the ser thnk that their charger and their battery must be designed to work toether and are something different. To tie the user to the permobil ecosystem. So they sell more btteries and chargers. The same as they do with all their parts, programmers, etc. So you are forced to use prmobil and are tied to their apron £££$$$ strings. Its all bullshit.

The charger they use is nothing different. It simply does the exact same CC/CV/Float 3 stage AGM profile as all the rest of the generic chargers out there. Its all marketing nonsense.

https://www.permobil.com/en-us/products ... ro-charger

Just read the detailed battery spec, and charger spec. Its a generic one size fits all GEL and AGM charger without any user adjustment just like all the rest. As such it will use 14.4V (too low for AGM, too high for gel, and 3 stage charge algo. The only difference is that its 10A rather than the usual 8 just like the 10A chargers supplied by sunrise medical on their 8mph chairs...

The battery is in fact a gel battery. Not AGM. It simply uses an AGM style glass fibre mat as the seperator. Instead of the usual nylon mat. This too isnt unusual and makes no real difference. Its the thing that keeps the plates apart and stops them touching inside the battery. So its a gel battery. And one that will need a 14.1V CV stage for best cycle life just like all gel batteries. So in spite of its marketing attempting to make the user think they are something special, and matched and work as a pair (just like all batteries and battery chargers!) they are in fact not. Not even a gel charger!

The only place this is made clear to anyone that understands this stuff is in the tech specs of the charger in its "manual" linked on the page above. Even then a very tiny picture you have to blow up from the charger electrical specs. Very well hidden. But yes as expected its just generic nonsense + marketing speak. Also they claim extra range. 20 miles? Exactly the same (or less) than other GRP24 chairs... Extra compared to what? They are very tricky at permobil! Those that dont understand tech stuff are all so easily fooled. You MUST understand the technical details, and read between the double-speak bullshit marketing.

High Performing Hybrid
Permobil batteries are valve regulated lead acid (VRLA) batteries with a gelled electrolyte and an absorbed glass mat (AGM) separator. This combination, along with a unique battery plate design, allows Permobil batteries to deliver higher energy density and improved battery life.

Exactly the same as all batteries. All are VRLA used on powerchairs. Half are AGM and half are GEL. The seperator being glass matt makes zero difference and is not unique. The higher energy density is 85Ah the same as the cheap nasty AGMs sold on eBay. Its easy to have more Ah if internal resistance or cycle life is reduced. Its a triangular thing... More of one means less of the other two. Swings and roundabouts. Marketing bull.

Optimized Charging
The new Permobil VoltPro charger delivers a unique charging profile that modulates voltage and current to completely and efficiently charge Permobil batteries. The optimized charging not only reduces charging time, it also helps extend battery life.

Permobil dont make batteries or chargers.
Every charger has a different "unique" charging profile. In this case the chargers manual claims it charges both gel and AGM which is of course impossible. So it will, like all the rest do something in between. So NOT optimised!!! Yes reduced charge time because of 10A like the sunrise chargers. This is better than 8 but much too low. And yes a 20 or 25A charger would be much better and that would improve battery life even more. So would a true gel charge profile that it also doesent have.

Permobil Battery & Permobil VoltPro Charger

The Permobil battery and Permobil VoltPro charger work together to provide you with up to 25% greater driving distance, reduced charging times and longer battery life.

Work together? Yes! Like every battery and charger... Another attempt to make you think you have to buy permobil batteries (Permobil dont make batteries but they do sell you rebranded ones! If they can.)
25% better range than what though? Better than some cheap AGMs from china? Yes. Better than the Odyssey batts in my backup chair? Extremely unlikely!! They claim 20 miles. Same as all the rest of the GRP24 chairs. So its what they dont tell you that matters here.

Every claim is true. Just not in the sense that you think... Its what they didnt say that mattered! And thats because they are great at marketing. And making you think you need both to work together. This works on the gullible. Not on engineers that understand a few basics.

Timm should get a Shirley PSU if he wants his batteries charged CORRECTLY! I use that on my Dietz chair and get a far better charge than the supplied 10A one.

Steve

But he wont. It means a little learning of why, and to use it too.

Timms issue is that he understands very little technically and doesent want to. And so he falls for the words that are extremely carefully crafted by the marketing department.

Who/which exist only to write doublespeak to make every "new" chair sound like something better/special, a somehow improved version of something. When its exactly the same thing with identical technology as what went before. With a few irrelivant details or facelift. He falls for this obvious doublespeak every time because he is not armed with the knowledge needed to figure out the truth from the bullshit. Like these "special" "permobil" matched batteries/chargers. And the rest.

What he should do is make an effort to learn about what is actually under the skin and how it all works, with chairs, control systems and battery/charge systems. None of which have changed for the better or at all in most cases in decades. Some chair seating has and this has bcome much more common. Beware bespoke control systems that integrate with the real r-net systems. Hello permobil! Some like linx, or prides re-hashed q-logic 2 and 3, or the permobil versions of R-Net have got worse, become non repairable or more locked down and so tie you to their ecosystem. That means endless waiting and illogical repairs by substitution and £££$$$ cost in eliability, repairability and even the ability to program a chair so it steers properly ever.

I agree BM, but they are the very users who complain about range and whatever else. In my opinion, understanding how a powerchair works is essential, and be beneficial for quick fixes.

As you say, Knowledge is Power!

Steve

theres a big kerfluffle at my dme currently because i insisted on mk batteries. i told them i would not accept anything else. theyve been forcing clients to use chinese batteries for some time. the dme is Numotion,who else! they dont know a thing about batteries. insurance did approve my mk's,btw...

Good with a proviso.

MKs are gel like many other batteries with high cycle life. The main reason for using gel. But gel batteries are getting a bad reputation ever since we widely adopted the typical "modern" generic 3 stage one size fits all digital mobility chargers. Why? Because they all claim to be able to charge gel as well as AGM.

And that is true they can. But extremely badly!

If a battery can charge a AGM battery such as the majority of cheap ones and many of those used in powerchairs, they definitely shouldnt be used on gel unless you accept that they will not last long.

You *MUST* charge them at a gel freindly CV voltage. That means 13.8 to 14.1 MAX volts. And you MUST continue that CV 2nd stage for 8 to 10 hours in cyclic use. Or until current stops falling by 0.1A or less in any one hour. Before then going to a 13.5V float for as long as possible. In any case, a full charge takes 16 to 20 hours minimum - especially if charged at low rates initially. As all mobility chargers must if via xlr.

Or you will be very dissapointed...

A COMPLETE charge for 20 hours, at least once per week is essential if you are normally only getting 8 hours overnight. The green light does not mean its 100% full. And to get your high cycle life that is *essential*. At the correct CV and Float voltage.

If you have a charger next to your PC or dining table, its EXTREMELY advantagous to give an hours part fill charge whenever you get chance. This works even better if you have a 25 or 30A charger... This is called opportunistic charging. It STILL NEEDS A FULL OVERNIGHT CHARGE TOO! Doing as above means your batts will live many years. Instead of months if using the wrong charge algorythm in a universal mobility charger...

im not disappointed. 2.5 years on my current set. i hardly use the F3.maybe 1x a week for an hour or so. use a manual at home. YOUR needs are not MY needs. i charge the batteries fully and often even when not using it. it would be nice if you could refrain from lecturing me

I am not lecturing you. It wasnt intended for you particularly, just info relating to the thread. There are lots of people read these pages. And this is aimed at them or people that arrive from a search term. Timm for e.g (rollin positive) whos thread this is. Who always pops up wih the "MK's are rubbish now they are made in china" nonsense and the above explains why he thinks this. Hopefully it will sink in. But used in the way you do should get a decade from them.

Hey guys,

I just came across this post just as I'm having to get new batteries installed in my new Permobil M5 Corpus that was bought in 2020 but had minimal use, just regular charging and run around the lounge etc a bit to keep it going while I've been stuck under extended shielding/mostly bedridden, leaving us unable to finish working on it for me to make proper use of it. So the batteries just stopped taking in charge properly in the end and died.

Main thing is that I wasn't really aware that there were multiple options for batteries. And if so which is best? Before I throw hundreds of pounds at them that I can barely afford, what should I be asking for?

Also is a few years the normal life cycle of these standard batteries if that's all I can get with what will be my normal use, say 2-4 days going out a week. Otherwise just pottering about indoors at most?
And if I can get better batteries what could I expect if I treat them right regarding charging as described above?

This is my first power chair I've owned rather than loaned or worked on for someone else and I'm determined to get everything right as much as I can.
I'm already fighting hard when it comes to the programming, though I might still need to come here for help if my battles don't win me what I need in the end. So far my engineer is being a star. But we'll see! As we all know they have their limits. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt for now though.

Honestly, I'm currently enjoying a weekend using my good old loaner Jive Up while they do some work on my Permobil M5 (getting it more fit for use as we're still in the early stages with it, switching out components, adding more etc. Incl currently fitting a ROHO active back for Tuesday's drop off in hopes of making it not kill my spine!) and I can't help worry that I made a mistake with this chair choice at times as it is seeming to be such a pain to get adjusted and programmed correctly for me. Sadly I was too sick at the time following my accident to think as clearly as I can now.

Everything crossed though! So thankful for having found this forum! Ironically I used to help service and program powerchairs over 10yrs ago during my support worker/techy years, but a head injury and more since has left me blundering my way through conversations with my engineer that used to be second nature. Hoping it'll all come back! I'm not going to let others keep taking advantage of my situation since the crash and treating me like a child. I want this chair to be my independence, not another tool for others to control me/my options through.

Rant/ramble over... My apologies. Bad day!

Main thing is that I wasn't really aware that there were multiple options for batteries. And if so which is best? Before I throw hundreds of pounds at them that I can barely afford, what should I be asking for?

Where to begin...

Also is a few years the normal life cycle of these standard batteries if that's all I can get with what will be my normal use, say 2-4 days going out a week. Otherwise just pottering about indoors at most?
And if I can get better batteries what could I expect if I treat them right regarding charging as described above?

Any quality deep cycle lead battery has around 450 to 500 cycle capability if discharged by 80%. But thats only true if they are correctly charged. Bobility chargers do not correctly charge batteries. Theres multiple reasons for this, and its a massive subject. But basically powerchairs have got heavier and faster over the years and this puts a massive strain on the weakest part of the whole system. You will never find any self respecting EV manufacturer using lead batteries for any number of reasons.

So you need the best possible lead batteries, of the largesst possible capacity that will fit. And thats still not really adequate. Then you need a better charger, and a better charging routine. You cannot propery charge a lead battery in under 16 hours. And trying to do this faster results in a shorter life through premature sulfation. And charging at the wrong voltages by a few 10ths of a volt can knock yet more from the cycle life. And failing to recharge every day that the chair has been moved AT ALL is another recipe for shortened lifespan. As is storing for a month without charging. If it never moves charge weekly for 16 hours. If it moves at all charge after use for 16 hours.

This is my first power chair I've owned rather than loaned or worked on for someone else and I'm determined to get everything right as much as I can.
I'm already fighting hard when it comes to the programming, though I might still need to come here for help if my battles don't win me what I need in the end. So far my engineer is being a star. But we'll see! As we all know they have their limits. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt for now though.

Its a permobil and uses permobils own parts mixed with R-Net so it will never steer or be fully programmable.

Honestly, I'm currently enjoying a weekend using my good old loaner Jive Up while they do some work on my Permobil M5 (getting it more fit for use as we're still in the early stages with it, switching out components, adding more etc. Incl currently fitting a ROHO active back for Tuesday's drop off in hopes of making it not kill my spine!) and I can't help worry that I made a mistake with this chair choice at times as it is seeming to be such a pain to get adjusted and programmed correctly for me. Sadly I was too sick at the time following my accident to think as clearly as I can now.

The JIVE can be fully and properly programmed with ease. And you just need the OEM programmer and a dongle and easy to get. The permobil, best of luck with that!

Rollin Positive wrote:Everyone knows about Permobil coming out with their own rebranded Permobil fast charge batteries and 10 amp charger.

So the issue early on was the charger was shorting out the joystick causing it to burn

Permobil knew of the problem but did not proactively reach out to customers that it might have affected but instead waited till customers reached out to their DMEs.

My question is if the charger was shorting out the joystick and shutting off too soon before the batteries were charged and no real record if this happened over weeks or months or longer how would that affect batteries in the long term if they were constantly under charged? 

This is very dirty with us, they know about the problem and don't fix it. As for batteries I only use stationary acid and lead, they last 2 years and in Brazil it's good. lol

They do fix it. They know that their "special" charger had undersized or badly plated xlr connector causing increased resistance and that makes heat. They will replace the R-Net joystick and charger.

Any quality deep cycle lead battery has around 450 to 500 cycle capability if discharged by 80%. But thats only true if they are correctly charged. Bobility chargers do not correctly charge batteries. Theres multiple reasons for this, and its a massive subject. But basically powerchairs have got heavier and faster over the years and this puts a massive strain on the weakest part of the whole system. You will never find any self respecting EV manufacturer using lead batteries for any number of reasons.

So you need the best possible lead batteries, of the largesst possible capacity that will fit. And thats still not really adequate. Then you need a better charger, and a better charging routine. You cannot propery charge a lead battery in under 16 hours. And trying to do this faster results in a shorter life through premature sulfation. And charging at the wrong voltages by a few 10ths of a volt can knock yet more from the cycle life. And failing to recharge every day that the chair has been moved AT ALL is another recipe for shortened lifespan. As is storing for a month without charging. If it never moves charge weekly for 16 hours. If it moves at all charge after use for 16 hours.

So my take from this in short if I'm understanding correctly is to request the highest quality available lead batteries and highest capacity that will fit, alongside the best charger available that they can provide for my chair to charge these new batteries?
Then as I usually would, charge every day, both whenever the chair is not in use, plus overnight, and for at least one 20hr+ charge cycle per week. While of course ensuring the chair is also getting a good amount of regular usage throughout the week, if not from me (such as when I'm bedridden due to health reasons or during winter when it's too cold for me to get out etc), then from my partner who can give it a run around the garden, take the dog for a walk and have their bit of fun with it (though if they break it I'll break them lol).

This is my first power chair I've owned rather than loaned or worked on for someone else and I'm determined to get everything right as much as I can.
I'm already fighting hard when it comes to the programming, though I might still need to come here for help if my battles don't win me what I need in the end. So far my engineer is being a star. But we'll see! As we all know they have their limits. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt for now though.

Its a permobil and uses permobils own parts mixed with R-Net so it will never steer or be fully programmable.

Sadly I'd begun to gather this was the case and thankyou for confirming.

Honestly, I'm currently enjoying a weekend using my good old loaner Jive Up while they do some work on my Permobil M5 (getting it more fit for use as we're still in the early stages with it, switching out components, adding more etc. Incl currently fitting a ROHO active back for Tuesday's drop off in hopes of making it not kill my spine!) and I can't help worry that I made a mistake with this chair choice at times as it is seeming to be such a pain to get adjusted and programmed correctly for me. Sadly I was too sick at the time following my accident to think as clearly as I can now.

The JIVE can be fully and properly programmed with ease. And you just need the OEM programmer and a dongle and easy to get. The permobil, best of luck with that![/quote]

We are having so many issues with this new Permobil that I'm considering arranging a deal where I trade it in for a chair of theirs of equal or close to equal value that I know I enjoy and can be easily programmed as you've just mentioned with the JIVE, even if it is an old loaner chair. (This Permobil M5 with all its additional functions/extras etc is about £18,000 I believe... Though I think we got it for about 16,000 after a discount offered during 2020/covid related. Hard to recall exact numbers. )
And honestly if I could swap out for this old JIVE there and then I likely would, but it's what... A 6yr old franken-chair now and I'm not sure what it's worth (less or even more maybe?!) and it's like going to buy/trade new and second hand cars without a full understanding of loss of worth over time etc. I just have to take their word for it.

This really is an issue for another thread though so I'll move on over and repost elsewhere though any responses here will be welcomed of course. Many thanks!

Apologies with the messy post above! Ran out of edits to tidy it up.

So my take from this in short if I'm understanding correctly is to request the highest quality available lead batteries and highest capacity that will fit, alongside the best charger available that they can provide for my chair to charge these new batteries?

Yes and basically that means MK Gel, 74Ah.
And it would meann a little education on looking after batteries.
A battery that is USED esp if discharged heavily will "wear out" much faster (like 10x faster) than one that if just left on a long term maintainance charge.
And you might get literally just a few 10s of 100% discharges compared to 5K shallow discharges PROVIDED it is charged correctly.

So 50 x 100% deep cycles.
500 x 80 deep cycles.
1500 x 60% deep cycles.
5000 x 25% deep cycles.
So obviously you need the largest possible battery that will fit in the specific chair.

In order to make your battery last 4 or 5 years instead of my own typical 9 months, you can and should also do OPPORTUNISTIC charging. Again, I connect to a bench power supply, with the same anderson connector a couple of times a day while checking email, or eating, before going into town or going out in an evening for maybe 20 mins, or an hour if I ave time. This LOWERS the average depth of discharge you reach daily. So you get much much greater cycle life. It *MUST* also get a full overnight charge.

Then its important to regularly charge at the CORRECT voltage which for an MK Gel is 14.10V maximum per batt, or 28.20V for a pair and at preferably 20 to 25A. On a CC/CV basis. For around 12 hours. Then another 4 hours min at a lower 13.5V (27v) and this may be continued indefinitely as a long term maintainance storage voltage too. Your mobility charger doesent do that. It will be a little too high voltage and will end charge far too soon, and give a green light...

Finding one that does is very hard unless you like complication... Like a carefully configured user programable charger. And a bigger anderson style charge connector as I use on everything.

Then as I usually would, charge every day, both whenever the chair is not in use, plus overnight, and for at least one 20hr+ charge cycle per week. While of course ensuring the chair is also getting a good amount of regular usage throughout the week, if not from me (such as when I'm bedridden due to health reasons or during winter when it's too cold for me to get out etc), then from my partner who can give it a run around the garden, take the dog for a walk and have their bit of fun with it (though if they break it I'll break them lol).

No that just wears out the battery and the chair for no reason. Using up your cycle life... You need the battery on a low voltage float of 13.35 min, to 13.5V max, continuously while not in use. Actually double that for 2 batts in series.

We are having so many issues with this new Permobil that I'm considering arranging a deal where I trade it in for a chair of theirs of equal or close to equal value that I know I enjoy and can be easily programmed as you've just mentioned with the JIVE, even if it is an old loaner chair. (This Permobil M5 with all its additional functions/extras etc is about £18,000 I believe... Though I think we got it for about 16,000 after a discount offered during 2020/covid related. Hard to recall exact numbers. )
And honestly if I could swap out for this old JIVE there and then I likely would, but it's what... A 6yr old franken-chair now and I'm not sure what it's worth (less or even more maybe?!) and it's like going to buy/trade new and second hand cars without a full understanding of loss of worth over time etc. I just have to take their word for it.

I paid approx 6k for this and lightly modified it. Be careful, there are many IMPORTANT details. In both the original spec, and the mods. So read the details carefully before looking at the pretty poctures as they MATTER!!!
https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/ ... 00#p122818

AndI bought this used after carefully watching ebay for 2 years or so until the correct spec of the correct chair appeared. I then got the supplier to accept a lower offer, and change the footplate to a power centre footplate in the price that they also had for sale. It cost me £4.2k delivered, and then I made a few easy small mods. This was a USED chair, with single digit miles. It was sold to a client who appears never used it. It was basically 4 months old, and on eBay for 3 of thse back in the sellers shop. So if you are patient and know what you want in detail, you can get a 13.5K chair for 4.2k... with 12 month warranty.
https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/ ... 33#p171026

And these are all easily repaired, parts are easy to get direct from a dealer, and both can be programmed with the generic or sunrise OEM programmers that we have access to here. Both are sunrise chairs. Both are 4 pole, both use identical R-Net electronics, (one has a pointless gyro), and of the two the now discontinued salsa was/is the better chair.

After having used a variety of chargers sold for WC use, I settled on the modified ZXD charger that SHIRLEY_HKG is able to get for us. I have two of them. Though it takes a bit of learning to program it, once that's done it's really plug-and-play for lead acid batteries. Then, if you want to use them for other things as well they are quite adaptable. These were originally telecom power supplies and are quite solid and reliable. The fans are noisy, and I further modified mine with quiet, thermostatically controlled, fans. Burgerman is quite right that it's handy to add an Anderson connector on the chair so that you can charge at much higher than 12A rate, though for lead batteries one still needs a long, low voltage soak to get them fully charged.

Both of my daughter's chairs now have 200 AHr LiFePO4 batteries though, and with her light use they only need charging once a week. Lot's more to learn should you eventually want to go that route, but as quite a few of use here have found, well worth the effort.

I second the ZXD charger/power supply. For the money its pretty useful and well built.

If you dont mind the noise.

They are both a 3 stage user configurable charger, wich means you can get it wrong if you dont know what you are doing. And a 3kw capable power supply. So 0 to 60V. And 0 to 50A. So great for powering a hobby style lithium battery charger at some future point once you decide that lead is a waste of time, money, and has inadequate range.

A propery set up 200Ah lithium battery setup (not a ready to go drop in lead brick replacement) will last 10 to 15 years, save you 40lb of mass, give you real fast charge capability, and typically 80 miles of range or around 5x whatever you get with lead. But batteries are not easy so a big learning curve.

ZXD, PL8v2 lithium balance charger, multimeter...

Burgerman wrote:ZXD, PL8v2 lithium balance charger, multimeter...

I didn't realize the ZXD was that compact. I can see the size compared to the PL8. I've really got to get a couple of these psu. Especially with a iCharger it's less risk of damage. An every couple months use one to charge the mk bricks I took out. But with how good my 200ah lifepo4 pack is doing I may not even bother keeping them around. Maybe I'll just donate them like you did BM.

Third vote for the ZXD2400 PSU/Charger. It's much better than your typical mobility charger which shortens the life of Lead Bricks. I have 3 ZXD's and use them to power my chargers and one is set up as a 3-stage charger for my chairs with Lead Bricks.

Steve

Thank you so much for all your knowledge and experience.
I've noted down MK 74Ah in regards to what I'm actually after regarding batteries which seems spot on after checking out the MK website and doing some further reading up.
I will of course continually try to learn as much as possible over the years about batteries and how best to care for them etc.

I grasp the concept of always doing a full overnight charge as you mentioned, there's never a chance of that being missed, and I equally grasp opportunistic charging for sure, which on days I'm downstairs making use of the chair I'm always sure to do and will add in extra charge points where possible around the grounds.

I looked up Anderson connectors though and I know I've seen them before. May even have some laying around the garage. But I can't see where they would connect up for opportunistic charging? I'm assuming they would connect into the batteries themselves which would almost always involve the help of someone else in my case, unless I'm having a very good day or want to go heavy on my painkillers lol.
That said I intend on powering on with getting into much of my own chair maintenance so there's going to be a lot of struggling up off of the floor in my future. Stubborn bugger though so that won't stop me!

If I'm wrong regarding my assumption with the Anderson's please tell me more about how these can help me out.

I then read this next section:

Burgerman:
Then its important to regularly charge at the CORRECT voltage which for an MK Gel is 14.10V maximum per batt, or 28.20V for a pair and at preferably 20 to 25A. On a CC/CV basis. For around 12 hours. Then another 4 hours min at a lower 13.5V (27v) and this may be continued indefinitely as a long term maintainance storage voltage too. Your mobility charger doesent do that. It will be a little too high voltage and will end charge far too soon, and give a green light...

Finding one that does is very hard unless you like complication... Like a carefully configured user programable charger. And a bigger anderson style charge connector as I use on everything.

Ah okay this is where the Anderson style charge connector element comes in. So I'm assuming you have this as a user programmable charger that plugs directly into controller like any other usually would, that then plugs into the bigger Anderson charge connector? Or the other way around... Please excuse my lack of knowledge here!

Also how do you go about putting all this together, as I'm assuming it's not something I can request from my dealership lol.

Then as I usually would, charge every day, both whenever the chair is not in use, plus overnight, and for at least one 20hr+ charge cycle per week. While of course ensuring the chair is also getting a good amount of regular usage throughout the week, if not from me (such as when I'm bedridden due to health reasons or during winter when it's too cold for me to get out etc), then from my partner who can give it a run around the garden, take the dog for a walk and have their bit of fun with it (though if they break it I'll break them lol).

Burgerman:
No that just wears out the battery and the chair for no reason. Using up your cycle life... You need the battery on a low voltage float of 13.35 min, to 13.5V max, continuously while not in use. Actually double that for 2 batts in series.

Thank you so much for that correction! We were told recently that it was best to run the chair regularly to stop the battery from keeping charge. I thought it sounded stupid but after the batteries died with with a pretty great charging habit despite having the chair essentially unused for 2yrs, I figured maybe I'm wrong and they're right but actually I'm thinking it's just the batteries were rubbish and that was just their lifespan...

We are having so many issues with this new Permobil that I'm considering arranging a deal where I trade it in for a chair of theirs of equal or close to equal value that I know I enjoy and can be easily programmed as you've just mentioned with the JIVE, even if it is an old loaner chair. (This Permobil M5 with all its additional functions/extras etc is about £18,000 I believe... Though I think we got it for about 16,000 after a discount offered during 2020/covid related. Hard to recall exact numbers. )
And honestly if I could swap out for this old JIVE there and then I likely would, but it's what... A 6yr old franken-chair now and I'm not sure what it's worth (less or even more maybe?!) and it's like going to buy/trade new and second hand cars without a full understanding of loss of worth over time etc. I just have to take their word for it.

Burgerman:
I paid approx 6k for this and lightly modified it. Be careful, there are many IMPORTANT details. In both the original spec, and the mods. So read the details carefully before looking at the pretty poctures as they MATTER!!!
https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/ ... 00#p122818

I truly admire anyone's ability to go ahead and put together something like this by themselves. I want to get to that point desperately and aim to do so over the many years ahead that I'll be reliant on a powerchair. Though I think I may need to do some actual learning/training with someone/somewhere to feel confident first. Particularly with such a small budget to work with so very little room for mistakes.

Burgerman:
AndI bought this used after carefully watching ebay for 2 years or so until the correct spec of the correct chair appeared. I then got the supplier to accept a lower offer, and change the footplate to a power centre footplate in the price that they also had for sale. It cost me £4.2k delivered, and then I made a few easy small mods. This was a USED chair, with single digit miles. It was sold to a client who appears never used it. It was basically 4 months old, and on eBay for 3 of thse back in the sellers shop. So if you are patient and know what you want in detail, you can get a 13.5K chair for 4.2k... with 12 month warranty.
https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/ ... 33#p171026

Patience I have and the willingness to haggle harshly, I've watched eBay like a hawk as well as other places for old fountain pens, PC components and other random things for years before I get them just as I want them, from someone I can trust and for the price I'm willing to pay etc.

You've also reminded me of the point that if I do look at trading in for the companies Jive UP then finding out how many miles it's actually done will be an important factor to consider.
As far as I'm aware pretty much everything can keep being fixed, replaced, swapped out etc, apart from elements of the electronics that will eventually burn out and be the final death of the chair due to their inability to be replaced/repaired.
I'm unsure if my understanding is totally right there, but it's one concern I have switching from a brand new to an old chair through a trade, however well maintained.

Burgerman:
And these are all easily repaired, parts are easy to get direct from a dealer, and both can be programmed with the generic or sunrise OEM programmers that we have access to here. Both are sunrise chairs. Both are 4 pole, both use identical R-Net electronics, (one has a pointless gyro), and of the two the now discontinued salsa was/is the better chair.

If I didn't rely so heavily on the transfer mode/standing type tilt I'd have so many more options it's frustrating. But I haven't come this far to give up.

First though I'm at least going to get these batteries right and keep educating myself day by day. As even if I don't keep this chair it should trade in for more with better batteries in it anyway. I say optimistically... Or hey, at least I'll be doing its next owner a favour.

Andersons. You just fit one on the chair and connect its two slightly heavier wires to the battery. This allows you to use a faster more powerful charger. The controller in not involved in any way.

Simple right? Connect to the two battery terminals that show 24V on a multimeter. Done. Now you can use a more powerful charger that allows you to wack 25 to 50A in during a short opportunistic charge. So a lot goes in fast. It also allows any charger to have a shorter lower resistance path to the battery which helps them charge fster and at the corect CV voltage compared to doing this through the chairs existing loom and the troublesome XLR connectors which are rubbish... As evidenced ot the top of this thread.

As for used, mine was an unused one... Bought as "used" but it really wasnt. But it was 1/3rd the cost of a "new" one. Trying to buy a standing chair is more difficult and more expensive. It frequently means battery CAPACITY compromises as well. So check what battery size it says. If its a typical grp 24, 74Ah or 80Ah, thats OK. If its less it wont last long. They dont anyway! You get anything from months to years. Depends on how you treat it. And what you expect.

Dont discharge deeply, charge often and completely to saturate the cells which returns all the sulfates back to the acid, dont over volt during charge and do opportunistic top ups during the day and you get years.

steves1977uk wrote:Timm should get a Shirley PSU if he wants his batteries charged CORRECTLY! I use that on my Dietz chair and get a far better charge than the supplied 10A one.

Steve

Hey Steve when you say far better ??

Better in which way? Not tired to their 3rd party charger but just curious?

I can answer that easily too.
Better in that:

a) it is user programmable. So you can set it to the CORRECT CV voltage as specified by the battery tech sheet for best cycle life. So that you can charge the gel, or AGM battery at the right voltage. This is important as a few 10ths of a volt wrong can cost you 60% of the service life. Your permobil charger does not do this.

b) it allows you to set any output current. So 8A or 10A or 12A or any other figure which is the maximum allowed by the XLR connector on an R-Net joystick.
So set to 12A and get faster charge during a opportunistic daytime top up.

c) it allows you to set it to a better much faster 20A or 30A or even 50A should you tire of the slow lane, and wish to fit a better Anderson charge connector to the chair which is simple. This allows for very effective opportunistic charging during the day. So you can give it say 30A for a while while you eat your dinner. And so put a 90% charge back very fast. Ready to go out in an evening. This allows more range, and it means that just like charging at the correct voltage, and ending the charge at the correct time, it extends the life of any battery and so will last many years instead of 9 months or so...

d) it allows you to set the point during charge that the CV stage ends. This is crucial!!! This typically takes around 8 hours or longer if you with to charge FULLY which your mobility charger fails to do. You set this via the termination end current. This returns the sulfates back to the electrolyte. And means the battery will live a lot longer.

e) it allows you to set a correct voltage for FLOAT too. After the CV stage ends, which again is when you tell it in programming!

f) its small, bomb proof, ultimately flexible, and can power a hobby style charger as its really a 3000 watt power supply. That means you can then use it for a 80 mile range, lithium battery in the future too.

Your 10A generic charger from permobil does all of this wrong. So your batts last about 10 mins, take an age to charge because only 10A.

Only downside, noisy!

Heres the rear of mine. Note Anderson. Thats what I use for charging at high amps...
Also understand that in europe like most of the planet we all have 240V outlets everywhere. And this ten allows up to 0 to 60v, and 0 to 50Amps.
In the US you have low voltage 110, so will still be able to use it but current us half. So reduced to 0 to 25A.