200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

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200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 11 Apr 2022, 14:30

200ah lifepo4 build for my bounder 300 chair. Replacing group 24 lead bricks. Everything is soldered and crimped.

8 x 200ah lifepo4 cells:
https://m.alibaba.com/product/160016167 ... om=Android

Charger: iCharger 4010 duo
https://www.progressiverc.com/products/ ... 0704167047

Flexible busbars:
( I strongly recommend using bus CABLES instead of these. I ONLY used these Flexible busbars because I didn’t have the head space for bus cables).
Insulated Flexible Busars
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mrM3EFs

Cable sizes:
Charging cables 8awg
Balance cables 16awg
Power cable 6awg
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 11 Apr 2022, 14:32

And
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 11 Apr 2022, 14:33

And
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 11 Apr 2022, 14:35

And
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 11 Apr 2022, 14:37

Almost finished charging and balancing :thumbup: :dance
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 11 Apr 2022, 14:42

I forgot the Power supply

Power supply: 24v 69amp
http://feathermerchantrc.com/
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 11 Apr 2022, 14:53

My mom built the battery soldering an everything all I did was talk her through everything. An she has no experience with any of this stuff but she did great! If she can do it then just about anyone can. If you're thinking about going to lifepo4 don't be intimidated it's not as complicated as it seems
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby Burgerman » 11 Apr 2022, 16:17

Thats what I keep telling everyone.
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby steves1977uk » 11 Apr 2022, 16:21

Nice build FJ! :thumbup: Anybody can do this if they're willing to learn and take time understanding everything. Nothing is impossible. Those sticking with Lead bricks are going to be left behind.

Steve
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby expresso » 11 Apr 2022, 16:34

very nice -great job - will be great inside the bounder box - i was almost going down this road till i got the lithium covered with the bounder -

too bad only 100ah inside - not enough - 200ah will be great inside and if you need more range - 100ah outside :D you have 300ah bounder

first of its kind - i did 68 miles on my bounder just once to see - using a 180ah total pack - i never done that much since -

you will have fun this summer :thumbup:
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby Burgerman » 11 Apr 2022, 16:37

Timm should read this thread.
He still seems to think its all impossible for him. Thinks powerchairs run on some kind of "new" marketing magic!

Your virgin mum did a marvelous neat job. The underside of those cells have electrical insulation too right?
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 11 Apr 2022, 21:43

Burgerman wrote:Timm should read this thread.
He still seems to think its all impossible for him. Thinks powerchairs run on some kind of "new" marketing magic!

Your virgin mum did a marvelous neat job. The underside of those cells have electrical insulation too right?


Thanks bm, me an mom both appreciate all your help. cheers

Yep we put a layer of electrical insulation under the cells.

What kind of material did you use for electrical insulation?
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 11 Apr 2022, 21:45

steves1977uk wrote:Nice build FJ! :thumbup: Anybody can do this if they're willing to learn and take time understanding everything. Nothing is impossible. Those sticking with Lead bricks are going to be left behind.

Steve


Thanks,
I wonder how many years it will take for the power chair industry to convert to lithium?
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 11 Apr 2022, 21:46

expresso wrote:very nice -great job - will be great inside the bounder box - i was almost going down this road till i got the lithium covered with the bounder -

too bad only 100ah inside - not enough - 200ah will be great inside and if you need more range - 100ah outside :D you have 300ah bounder

first of its kind - i did 68 miles on my bounder just once to see - using a 180ah total pack - i never done that much since -

you will have fun this summer :thumbup:


Can't wait :thumbup:
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby Burgerman » 11 Apr 2022, 21:46

I dont have those type of cells so nothing. I would use a 1mm sheet of plastic or something.
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 11 Apr 2022, 21:52

Burgerman wrote:Thats what I keep telling everyone.


I really enjoyed this project. We just took it one step at a time. A year ago when I joined this forum I had no understanding of electricity and especially not lithium but after seeing all the range an freedom you guys have I had to. Honestly it would be worth going lithium if just for the longer life span an not having to buy expensive lead bricks every couple years
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby Burgerman » 11 Apr 2022, 22:07

But now you have real freedom with no range anxiety. You realistically have 5x the range. And thats going to take a while to get used to.

Why 5x the range? Because realistically your chairs old lead bricks run out and you stop after around 12 miles. So set off, drive full speed along the footpath for 2 hours at 6mph. Thats it. 6 mph for 2 hours is 12 miles... Maybe a fraction more if you slow down a few times to rest the batteries. At this point your red light is on or will be very soon, and if you recharge the battery you see that only 35 to 40Ah is returned. This is because of peukert. At this 2 hour rate thats all the lead can give you.

But now you have 5x this 40Ah available. So you can go at max speed, for 10 hours solid without a break! If you have the backside for it... Because theres no peukert decrease on lithium.

You are used to looking to see if you "lost a light" or two and turn home. Or you dont attempt to go out in the evening into town because you aleady had a busy day. It takes a long while to lose this feeling. Its subconsous. It limits what you attempt. And you dont know you are doing it.

Forgot to charge last night? Had planned to go to a big day out like an airshow? No problem... And then go out again to another town in the evening. Incidentally how old are you? Are pubs / clubs and loose women your thing? I am getting older. I seldom need that much range. But its nice to never have to think about it.
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 12 Apr 2022, 12:57

Burgerman wrote:But now you have real freedom with no range anxiety. You realistically have 5x the range. And thats going to take a while to get used to.

Why 5x the range? Because realistically your chairs old lead bricks run out and you stop after around 12 miles. So set off, drive full speed along the footpath for 2 hours at 6mph. Thats it. 6 mph for 2 hours is 12 miles... Maybe a fraction more if you slow down a few times to rest the batteries. At this point your red light is on or will be very soon, and if you recharge the battery you see that only 35 to 40Ah is returned. This is because of peukert. At this 2 hour rate thats all the lead can give you.

But now you have 5x this 40Ah available. So you can go at max speed, for 10 hours solid without a break! If you have the backside for it... Because theres no peukert decrease on lithium.

You are used to looking to see if you "lost a light" or two and turn home. Or you dont attempt to go out in the evening into town because you aleady had a busy day. It takes a long while to lose this feeling. Its subconsous. It limits what you attempt. And you dont know you are doing it.

Forgot to charge last night? Had planned to go to a big day out like an airshow? No problem... And then go out again to another town in the evening. Incidentally how old are you? Are pubs / clubs and loose women your thing? I am getting older. I seldom need that much range. But its nice to never have to think about it.


this is going to be awesome!! i like pubs an loose women very much!! im going to do a pub crawl soon, im going to drink a beer at each pub around town an see how far i get before getting completely drunk2 cheers

this range is going to take my mushroom foraging to another level now i can hit all my spots in a day instead of having to pick just one spot a day because of range.

im still trying to wrap my head around all the range :shock:
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 12 Apr 2022, 13:01

ive been playing around with the icharger software here are some screen shots of the graph an stuff. i only have it showing cell voltages
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 12 Apr 2022, 13:48

also you can configure everything an start/stop charging with the software but you have to set the termination current to 1% manually in the charger because the pc software only goes down to 10%
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby AgGuy » 12 Apr 2022, 14:44

I appreciate all your posts on this build.
When switching to lithium, is any controller programming required to make it work properly?
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 12 Apr 2022, 16:04

AgGuy wrote:I appreciate all your posts on this build.
When switching to lithium, is any controller programming required to make it work properly?


Thanks I enjoy it I've gotten tons of help from everyone here. It kinda feels like we all built it together

I have linx 120amp electronics but I don't think any programming is required, maybe bm will comment an let us know for sure
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby Burgerman » 12 Apr 2022, 18:17

On any chair that uses lead you can use 8s lifepo4 without changing any programming. But the battery gauge will read as full most of the time.

Make sure you tell the charger to balance only above 3.45v to 3.5v per cell. Or only at CV.
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 12 Apr 2022, 22:38

Another nice thing about going lithium mom mentioned the fact that she doesn't have to plug that 3 prong XLR plug into the joystick anymore she hated trying to line up those 3 pins an angle the plug. It was very frustrating for her
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby Burgerman » 12 Apr 2022, 22:43

What connector now?

The one I used?

im still trying to wrap my head around all the range :shock:


Its better than you think. Because the fear of running out of juice means you always tend to get back home with a fair bit still remaining. Its a subconsious thing. It garantees you never get caught out. But it means you only really use about half to 2/3rds of that lead bricks 40Ah usable power. So that 5x 40Ah is really 6.6x 30Ah... So you will go for what feels like 5x further, and still have about the same as a set of lead bricks could give you remaining. And a half...

Just be sure to never let any cell go below 3V ever and you wont go far wrong.
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby expresso » 12 Apr 2022, 23:13

having 200ah - would take a while to get to 3v on the cells - i just got home - been out for about 5 hours - cant say how many miles i did because my app didnt work correct on my phone

but i know more or less from how much i put back - charging up the bounder now - when done - will charge the ADD ON - i think i did about 32 - 35 miles

if i used 100ah total between the two packs - thats about right for the mileage for me - only half used if its correct when i am done charging - i take what i added back as a guide - along with App to track it -
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 13 Apr 2022, 13:36

Burgerman wrote:What connector now?

The one I used?

im still trying to wrap my head around all the range :shock:


Its better than you think. Because the fear of running out of juice means you always tend to get back home with a fair bit still remaining. Its a subconsious thing. It garantees you never get caught out. But it means you only really use about half to 2/3rds of that lead bricks 40Ah usable power. So that 5x 40Ah is really 6.6x 30Ah... So you will go for what feels like 5x further, and still have about the same as a set of lead bricks could give you remaining. And a half...

Just be sure to never let any cell go below 3V ever and you wont go far wrong.


We are using a Anderson sb50 for the charging cables and 3 mt30 connectors for the balance cables.

We really like the Anderson connectors they are a bit tight but mom can unplug them. I may have a few handle designs 3d printed to test an see if that makes it a little easier. But its fine if not.

The mt30 connectors were a compromise for now. I do not recommend these. They may be ok but I'm concerned about their longevity and also mom accidently pulling out a cable because there's not much to grip on.

We are practicing with dsub connectors until we are confident in soldering them. I plan on replacing the mt30 connectors with a dsub after summer. But I think we will keep the sb50 I'm not sure depends on how the dsub soldering goes.

Thanks I'll make sure to never go below 3v

I wonder how many years it will take the power chair industry to switch to lithium or if ever
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby Burgerman » 13 Apr 2022, 14:05

When they do it will be with a limited capacity bms controlled lead brick replacement. Or a pack again limited in capacity, like the BMS controlled bounder pack.

All of which entirely misses the point! Which is to say they will throw away the main advantages that this chemistry offers. Such as huge 500% range gains, fast charge capability, battery extended service life due in part to no BMS issues and low loading on a huge pack. But they dont care, think of the marketing bullshit!

Permobil are already well into that with some common lead bricks. Labled as "special" permobil branded ones.. Which they are not (special I mean!). And a "matched" special permobil charger (again its a generic 10A AGM/Gel one size fits all so nothing special at all). But they already have Timm convinced that its something new/special!

Many manufacturers like sunrise already INSIST on 10A chargers with heavy or faster chairs. Because otherwise battery issues and warranty problems arise... However 10A is only a fraction better than the usual 8A. What is really needed is an aprox 25A charger. According to most battery manufacturers. So that the bulk of the charge gets put back fast. Meaning theres almost long enough overnight to get a long enough CV stage. But if they can turn this into some "new" "modern" marketing bullshit then they will...
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 13 Apr 2022, 15:09

Burgerman wrote:When they do it will be with a limited capacity bms controlled lead brick replacement. Or a pack again limited in capacity, like the BMS controlled bounder pack.

All of which entirely misses the point! Which is to say they will throw away the main advantages that this chemistry offers. Such as huge 500% range gains, fast charge capability, battery extended service life due in part to no BMS issues and low loading on a huge pack. But they dont care, think of the marketing bullshit!

Permobil are already well into that with some common lead bricks. Labled as "special" permobil branded ones.. Which they are not (special I mean!). And a "matched" special permobil charger (again its a generic 10A AGM/Gel one size fits all so nothing special at all). But they already have Timm convinced that its something new/special!

I

Many manufacturers like sunrise already INSIST on 10A chargers with heavy or faster chairs. Because otherwise battery issues and warranty problems arise... However 10A is only a fraction better than the usual 8A. What is really needed is an aprox 25A charger. According to most battery manufacturers. So that the bulk of the charge gets put back fast. Meaning theres almost long enough overnight to get a long enough CV stage. But if they can turn this into some "new" "modern" marketing bullshit then they will...


Idiots banghead an I doubt they will ever be over 100ah.

Just wasted space with a bms

I'll be doing this for all my chairs for sure. I'll never be able to go back to lead bricks.

I don't like permobil seems like alot of people fall for their marketing crap. An they are crazy expensive. I'll never own one, I. Wouldn't even take one for free. This forum is loaded with reasons why.
Their "fast charger" is a joke. Even if it was fast you still have to go home or somewhere to charge which defeats the purpose to me
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby Burgerman » 13 Apr 2022, 22:57

To be fair you have to do that with any charger!

But heres the thing. To properly charge any and every lead battery you *must* charge for a full 12 (best quality AGM) to 16 to 20 hours (with gel) in order to get a fully saturated 100% full charge. And that matters for lifespan.

sadly we cant wait that long, so most chargers that the mobility industry supply will give a green light as soon as their CV stage ends and it ends ttoo soon. So at a low charge rate of 8 to 10A, at CC or bulk, it takes around 1 to 6 hours to end stage 1 before that CV stage begins. So time wasted. Then they end CV far too soon and give a ready light. At this point the battery is starting the endless float stage. This does complete the charge if allowed to continue for another 6 to 16 hours or so depending on how much too soon the earlier CV stage ended.

At the point the green comes on, the battery is ALMOST charged. That last 1 to 2% however cannot be speeded up. It takes hours and hours. Does that extra 2% affect range? Not today. Or tomorrow. But it leaves some sulfates on the lead plates instead of returning them back to the electrolyte. And 1 or 2 percent of capacity is lost day on day. In the end this sulfate turns to large non conducting crystals. Which cant ever be removed no matter how much charging, or when the snake oil "de-sulfator" salesman says it can. So a few months down the line your range is reduced. And this eventually means you throw the battery away.
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