200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 14 Apr 2022, 01:16

Burgerman wrote:To be fair you have to do that with any charger!

But heres the thing. To properly charge any and every lead battery you *must* charge for a full 12 (best quality AGM) to 16 to 20 hours (with gel) in order to get a fully saturated 100% full charge. And that matters for lifespan.

sadly we cant wait that long, so most chargers that the mobility industry supply will give a green light as soon as their CV stage ends. So at a low charge rate of 8 to 10A, at CC or bulk, it takes around 1 to 6 hours to end stage 1 before that CV stage begins. So time wasted. Then they end CV far too soon and give a ready light. At this point the battery is starting the endless float stage. This does complete the charge if allowed to continue for another 6 to 16 hours or so depending on how much too soon the earlier CV stage ended.

At the point the green comes on, the battery is ALMOST charged. That last 1 to 2% however cannot be speeded up. It takes hours and hours. Does that extra 2% affect range? Not today. Or tomorrow. But it leaves some sulfates on the lead plates instead of returning them back to the electrolyte. And 1 or 2 percent of capacity is lost day on day. In the end this sulfate turns to large non conducting crystals. Which cant ever be removed no matter how much charging, or when the snake oil "de-sulfator" salesman says it can. So a few months down the line your range is reduced. And this eventually means you throw the battery away.


I just went for my last ride with the lead bricks. An I can tell they are less capacity than last summer. Went around 10 miles wanted to ride more maybe go grab something to eat but had to come home an set in my room bored an charge afraid the bricks would run out of juice.
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 14 Apr 2022, 23:03

Got the 200ah pack installed in the bounder today. Everything fit really good plenty of room. The chair is running fun an I'm ready for my first free ride tomorrow :joint drunk2 :dance

Here are some pictures
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 14 Apr 2022, 23:04

And
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby expresso » 15 Apr 2022, 00:29

nice your ready to rock and roll :thumbup:

what did you use to wrap it - the black cloth over it - and the straps - good idea lower it in and take it out
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby Arima » 15 Apr 2022, 03:30

Looks great! Bounder makes a decent looking wheel.
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 15 Apr 2022, 14:16

expresso wrote:nice your ready to rock and roll :thumbup:

what did you use to wrap it - the black cloth over it - and the straps - good idea lower it in and take it out


:dance

On top an around the sides is rubber neoprene
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 15 Apr 2022, 14:19

Arima wrote:Looks great! Bounder makes a decent looking wheel.


Thanks
I wish the tires were a little easier to change, they use a split rim an a spacer. They can be a pain to change for someone that isn't mechanically inclined
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby Burgerman » 15 Apr 2022, 19:57

So how did your test ride go?
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 15 Apr 2022, 20:46

Burgerman wrote:So how did your test ride go?


It went great!!
I didn't get a chance to log my miles but I know it was more than the 10 miles I could do with Lead an that's round trip so really I could only travel out 5 miles with lead. Now it's incredibly liberating to ride with no worries I didn't realize how awesome it would feel its truly life changing an if I want to go back out this evening I can. Now I really feel bad for people with such short range that think they are content with lead, they have no idea how awesome it is.
I'm going to have to make sure I do my pressure reliefs so I don't develop any new pressure wounds I still have one its been a work in progress
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby expresso » 15 Apr 2022, 20:49

nice - get a little camera and mount it on the chair - video your rides - then you can look back and watch - etc, sometimes you see things you missed when riding
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby Burgerman » 15 Apr 2022, 21:10

Actually moving around and so gettng thrown around all the time esp outdoors is better for sores than sitting still or laying in bed. Movement makes oxygenated blood flow where a static still seat doesent. Thats what you need. Worry less move more.

It will be interesting to see how much you return to the pack when charged. Then you can see how much was unused...
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 15 Apr 2022, 23:42

Burgerman wrote:Actually moving around and so gettng thrown around all the time esp outdoors is better for sores than sitting still or laying in bed. Movement makes oxygenated blood flow where a static still seat doesent. Thats what you need. Worry less move more.

It will be interesting to see how much you return to the pack when charged. Then you can see how much was unused...


Great point!!

I'll record my miles next chance it's warm enough for a ride an the ah returned when I charge. I'm also curious to see. I charged it a little while ago just to test charging it in the chair and it charged fast but mom hit the stop button before I saw the ah returned on the display banghead lol an I didn't have it logged.
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 15 Apr 2022, 23:45

expresso wrote:nice - get a little camera and mount it on the chair - video your rides - then you can look back and watch - etc, sometimes you see things you missed when riding


Then you guys can see me getting stuck an having to call for help :lol: hopefully not this summer
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 15 Apr 2022, 23:55

I think my van lift will struggle just a little less with the weight loss now that another plus Also I think my lead acid batteries where degraded alot from last summer, if I hadn't gone lithium I would have had to buy new lead batteries all most every summer. Or be even more limited by running degraded lead batteries with more capacity loss each summer.

A lifepo4 pack price will be part of what I purchase when I get new chairs. Lead bricks will be replaced first thing from now on
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby Burgerman » 16 Apr 2022, 00:21

If you charge lead correctly, which mobility chargers do not, then from an MK gel you would be down to 80% of original performance after 500 cycles of an 80% deep discharge.

After 9 months I am nowhere near the 500 cycles, but already notice the decrease in both range and performance (no more wheelies) by around teatime...
Because on an average day I was using maybe 90% of what they had. That means much faster degradation. I was swapping out lead batteries every 9 months. Tried half a dozen brands, all much worse than MK. Only Odyssey was better. They claimed 400 cycles, but start with lower resistance/impedance. So while some range disapears they stay at a low enough resistance that you can still get wheelies etc after around a year. With the advantage that they charge faster too. So that alone means they live longer. As they get a more complete charge.

If you USE batteries hard you soon notice that they degrade in a matter of moths. If you dont, they may "feel" and perform fine and you still think in ignorance that they are as good as new. I donated a few of mmy discarded MKs that were no longer good enough for my antics to the old folks home. And many years later they are still using them quite happily in lighter softly programmed chairs.. It all depends on how hard you work them.
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 16 Apr 2022, 12:39

Burgerman wrote:If you charge lead correctly, which mobility chargers do not, then from an MK gel you would be down to 80% of original performance after 500 cycles of an 80% deep discharge.

After 9 months I am nowhere near the 500 cycles, but already notice the decrease in both range and performance (no more wheelies) by around teatime...
Because on an average day I was using maybe 90% of what they had. That means much faster degradation. I was swapping out lead batteries every 9 months. Tried half a dozen brands, all much worse than MK. Only Odyssey was better. They claimed 400 cycles, but start with lower resistance/impedance. So while some range disapears they stay at a low enough resistance that you can still get wheelies etc after around a year. With the advantage that they charge faster too. So that alone means they live longer. As they get a more complete charge.

If you USE batteries hard you soon notice that they degrade in a matter of moths. If you dont, they may "feel" and perform fine and you still think in ignorance that they are as good as new. I donated a few of mmy discarded MKs that were no longer good enough for my antics to the old folks home. And many years later they are still using them quite happily in lighter softly programmed chairs.. It all depends on how hard you work them.


czy wow that would be very expensive if i had to replace each summer. What a waste

thats a great idea, i may donate the mk batteries to the local old folks home here
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 21 Apr 2022, 01:31

i just charged my pack after 7 days of indoor use only. Very little distance per day indoors just through the house a couple times a day on hardwood floors. I use tilt an recline frequently around every thirty mins a full tilt. I put back in 20ah the pack is 200ah, how good or bad is that?

soon as the weather gets nice enough ill go on a ride an record my miles an ah returned
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby Burgerman » 21 Apr 2022, 01:59

Doesent tell us much.
But 20Ah? Thats nothing. Today I got up for 6 hours. I used a lead backup chair as I am spraying weed killer with an 8 litre bottle that pumps up with powerful industrial killer. I refilled the weed killer 5 times. Gets rid of moss/green weeds etc. Ants dont much like it either! I mixed a little hydrocloric (muriatic) brick acid in too for good measure.

So 4 hours moving around on my driveway. 1 hour doing very little, and 1 hour in the house rebuilding my electric bed. Dont ask. So I never went anywhere at alI.

I have put back 44.5 Ah and its almost finished. The next light on my admittedly useless batt guage would have been a red. Battery felt a little lacklustre. So I could feel it was almost fully discharged. This is a 80Ah cheap eBay AGM battery thats on its 9th cycle. So 44Ah is about its limit in reality.

So it depends on your usage. And on your programming. And on tyre pressures and type (fat ones low pressure here) and on chair type. Rear drive chairs eat more power turning than mid drives. And your chair and user weight. In your case you could do the same usage, for a 10 weeks. Or 8 weeks to be safe. Thats great. I could use it all in a few days without leaving home as I am very active. For what its worth, lowest battery drain is at constant speed and low amount of turning. So I would get similar range over a long distance run as you.
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 21 Apr 2022, 13:13

Burgerman wrote:Doesent tell us much.
But 20Ah? Thats nothing. Today I got up for 6 hours. I used a lead backup chair as I am spraying weed killer with an 8 litre bottle that pumps up with powerful industrial killer. I refilled the weed killer 5 times. Gets rid of moss/green weeds etc. Ants dont much like it either! I mixed a little hydrocloric (muriatic) brick acid in too for good measure.

So 4 hours moving around on my driveway. 1 hour doing very little, and 1 hour in the house rebuilding my electric bed. Dont ask. So I never went anywhere at alI.

I have put back 44.5 Ah and its almost finished. The next light on my admittedly useless batt guage would have been a red. Battery felt a little lacklustre. So I could feel it was almost fully discharged. This is a 80Ah cheap eBay AGM battery thats on its 9th cycle. So 44Ah is about its limit in reality.

So it depends on your usage. And on your programming. And on tyre pressures and type (fat ones low pressure here) and on chair type. Rear drive chairs eat more power turning than mid drives. And your chair and user weight. In your case you could do the same usage, for a 10 weeks. Or 8 weeks to be safe. Thats great. I could use it all in a few days without leaving home as I am very active. For what its worth, lowest battery drain is at constant speed and low amount of turning. So I would get similar range over a long distance run as you.



Wow this is VERY exciting to me :dance I'm ready to go riding. I'll post more info on my chair an miles after I get out for a ride. I'm noticing more and more benefits of having lifepo4.
I would say you one of the most active people I know. That's great you able to get up. I'm also getting up moving around more an more. I was just generating new sores in bed.
I have a electric hospital bed an a alternating air mattress an I go through one about every 2 years. It's a real pain in the ass when it happens I have to sleep in my chair if my bed goes out. That is one of the things I'm working on getting a backup for now. I have a couple mattresses. But the electric hospital beds they bring me are junk
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby steves1977uk » 21 Apr 2022, 13:43

I had one electric bed that actually blew it's motor, although my current one (Invacare Scanbed 750) is 12 years old and still going fine. It's a PITA when they stop working. :fencing

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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby Burgerman » 21 Apr 2022, 18:09

Tell me about it.

I have an electric bed. And I bought a spare motor and spare control.
I have an alternating air mattress too. I have cable ties, spare silicone tubing to connect the cells, and a spare cell. In the motors there is a diaphram. Its made of rubber. Write to the manufacturer and get a spare. When the air pump begins to be noticibly louder this is the problem. Then it fails. So you can take apart and replace it and back in action in 30 mins.

Also a 12 or 24v ac inverter so that if theres no power you can run the bed from a powerchair (anderson again) or in my case my van too, along with other essentials like light, central heating, as it needs a pump/power for boiler. And test before needed...
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby Marcelo » 21 Apr 2022, 20:34

fishinjunky wrote:200ah lifepo4 build for my bounder 300 chair. Replacing group 24 lead bricks. Everything is soldered and crimped.

8 x 200ah lifepo4 cells:
https://m.alibaba.com/product/160016167 ... om=Android

Charger: iCharger 4010 duo
https://www.progressiverc.com/products/ ... 0704167047

Flexible busbars:
( I strongly recommend using bus CABLES instead of these. I ONLY used these Flexible busbars because I didn’t have the head space for bus cables).
Insulated Flexible Busars
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mrM3EFs What's the height of this configuration in a permobil F3 friend?

Cable sizes:
Charging cables 8awg
Balance cables 16awg
Power cable 6awg
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby Marcelo » 21 Apr 2022, 21:43

expresso wrote:very nice -great job - will be great inside the bounder box - i was almost going down this road till i got the lithium covered with the bounder -

too bad only 100ah inside - not enough - 200ah will be great inside and if you need more range - 100ah outside :D you have 300ah bounder

first of its kind - i did 68 miles on my bounder just once to see - using a 180ah total pack - i never done that much since -

you will have fun this summer :thumbup:
Very good.
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 22 Apr 2022, 12:37

Marcelo wrote:
fishinjunky wrote:200ah lifepo4 build for my bounder 300 chair. Replacing group 24 lead bricks. Everything is soldered and crimped.

8 x 200ah lifepo4 cells:
https://m.alibaba.com/product/160016167 ... om=Android

Charger: iCharger 4010 duo
https://www.progressiverc.com/products/ ... 0704167047

Flexible busbars:
( I strongly recommend using bus CABLES instead of these. I ONLY used these Flexible busbars because I didn’t have the head space for bus cables).
Insulated Flexible Busars
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mrM3EFs What's the height of this configuration in a permobil F3 friend?

Cable sizes:
Charging cables 8awg
Balance cables 16awg
Power cable 6awg


Have you measured your battery space in the chair?

Make sure to measure very carefully and re-measure it a few times to make sure you have the measurements correct Length, width, height
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 23 Apr 2022, 01:35

Went on a quick ride today only 7.5 miles would have went farther but didn't have time. This was the first test ride outdoors with lifepo4 past the front yard an excuse my language but holly shit what a difference it much more responsive does way better going uphill an offroad. Feels faster my top speed before was 8.5mph now it's 9.5mph an I didn't even increase the voltage in the programming. The suspension even feels better maybe from the weight loss. If you're reading this an you have lead bricks in your chair you got to toss them an build a lifepo4 pack you CAN do it. Start a GoFundMe if you have to that's what I did an my mom built it by her self with me directing. Now I'm driving around the small community I live in visiting an thanking all those who donated. It's GREAT absolutely liberating.
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 23 Apr 2022, 01:49

:dance
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby snaker » 23 Apr 2022, 02:17

7.5 miles is quite modest to your pack and your fast chair. You have to "multiple" it with 10 (for a single ride), at least :mrgreen:
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 23 Apr 2022, 12:58

snaker wrote:7.5 miles is quite modest to your pack and your fast chair. You have to "multiple" it with 10 (for a single ride), at least :mrgreen:


for sure :thumbup:
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 23 Apr 2022, 13:12

i went for a quick 7.5 mile ride yesterday with some hills, offroad, and pavement. I put back in 42ah in my 200ah pack after the ride just to see how much ah i used.

my chair is a bounder 300 with tilt/recline. I have it programmed aggressively but not as aggressive as bm. Im not sure how much it weighs but its heavy, I weigh 120lbs. My tires are knobby 13''x5.00-6 17psi.
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Re: 200ah lifepo4 build with pictures

Postby fishinjunky » 23 Apr 2022, 13:57

with the numbers i posted above. Does 30 miles range with hills an offroad also some tight turning sound right?
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