Permobil F3

[Marcelo]

Hello, what is the average range of the Permobil F-3 using gel batteries?

[Burgerman]

Same as every chair, depends on programming, user weight, terrain, temperature, tyre type and pressure, how many turns, how much on a cambered surfface, how much wasted energy at home turning before you leave etc. Some will get 3x more than others. Plus are yo relying on the guesswork of the battery meter or driving till it stops. OUTDOORS in a reasonably straight path, smooth firm ground, and no hills, no indoor use, full speed, average 10 / 12 stone weight, most chairs will get 10 to 12 miles from 22NF and 12 to 15 real world from new healthy grp24. Faster chairs get less, slower chairs get more.

[Rollin Positive]

Hello, what is the average range of the Permobil F-3 using gel batteries?

I know of people getting 20 on the new Permobil hybrid batteries

[Marcelo]

Same as every chair, depends on programming, user weight, terrain, temperature, tyre type and pressure, how many turns, how much on a cambered surfface, how much wasted energy at home turning before you leave etc. Some will get 3x more than others. Plus are yo relying on the guesswork of the battery meter or driving till it stops. OUTDOORS in a reasonably straight path, smooth firm ground, and no hills, no indoor use, full speed, average 10 / 12 stone weight, most chairs will get 10 to 12 miles from 22NF and 12 to 15 real world from new healthy grp24. Faster chairs get less, slower chairs get more.

I'm using plain lead acid, weight 212 pounds, take hills and at top speed which is 5 miles, she's doing 7.7 miles, on solid tires. I'm going to buy a couple of gels to test. Thank you Burgerman.

[Marcelo]

Hello, what is the average range of the Permobil F-3 using gel batteries?

I know of people getting 20 on the new Permobil hybrid batteries

Hi, do you have the sale link mate? I'm in Brazil lol Thanks.

[Burgerman]

Permobil dont make batteries. They are just the same old lead /acid variation as always. And the same Ah as all the rest. So theres that! They will then get the same range as all the other grp24 gel based batteries of the same capacity. Its all marketing nonsense.

[steves1977uk]

It always makes me laugh that some people actually believe Permobil's marketing spin. The only thing they create is an over-complex chair with their tie-me-in-to-Permobil system. Batteries, chargers, controllers (except ICS and their custom joysticks), motors, tyres etc... are not made by them. Hence a pair of MKs would deliver the same range as their rebranded batteries.

Steve

[daveonwheels]

this
https://www.permobil.com/en-us/products ... ro-charger

they are AGM! stay away!

[Burgerman]

They are gel. They just use glass cloth seperators. Which has no affect of their electrcal performance. They are actually quite good batteries but no better or worse than the rest of the gel grp24 ones out there. 80Ah is 80Ah. Of which about 50 is actually accessible at the rate we discharge them. The only real diference between all of them is internal resistance and odyssey win here by a country mile. But they dont do group24. So a 68Ah grp34 is as good as they get. But they do better than expected because that low IR means more of that 68Ah is usable. So theres that!

[Marcelo]

Thanks everyone for the tips. Opior is the F-3 only fits 50ah degel batteries, I use the freedom DF-1000 of 70 amps.

[Rollin Positive]

It always makes me laugh that some people actually believe Permobil's marketing spin. The only thing they create is an over-complex chair with their tie-me-in-to-Permobil system. Batteries, chargers, controllers (except ICS and their custom joysticks), motors, tyres etc... are not made by them. Hence a pair of MKs would deliver the same range as their rebranded batteries.

Steve

I missed this link but I sure wish I was as smart as you...

It was never said Permobil made anything it was just that if you get a newer 2020 chair it will come with hybrid batteries

You seem to have all this knowledge about Permobil but my guess no seat time so your input is useless as you have no idea what you saying

I do notice this website seems to give you a platform

[Rollin Positive]

Hello, what is the average range of the Permobil F-3 using gel batteries?

I know of people getting 20 on the new Permobil hybrid batteries

Hi, do you have the sale link mate? I'm in Brazil lol Thanks.

Sorry for the delay she or you can reach out to the local permobil rep or DME as they are now retro fitting older chairs

In the US I hear they have stopped using MK in all together

@note they come with a new charger that is a 10amp

[daveonwheels]

they ship chairs with mk batteries. i just got some mk's from them. so, once again you dont know what youre talking about

[Burgerman]

It was never said Permobil made anything it was just that if you get a newer 2020 chair it will come with hybrid batteries

Just so you dont fall for all the marketing nonsense, hybrid as a fancy name for something that doesent make a blind bit of difference. They call it hybrid because it uses an AGM batteries inert seperator and a gelled electrolyte.

In an AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) battery the electrolyte acid is soaked into the seperators, in the form of a thin bit of glass fibre tissue to immobilise the acid so it doesent spill. In a normal gel battery that isnt required as they mix a silica gel crystal powder into the acid to thicken it up as a paste instead so it also doesent spill making it air travel safe and user freindly. So it doesent require the glass tissue (glass mat) as its already immobilised and cannot spill. So safe for air travel just like AGM is without a glass fibre seperator. The normal material used for a seperator between plates on gel batts then is nylon mesh, or anything that allows the gelled electrolyte (the acid) to contact the plates and prevent them touching. So the seperator serves no part in the battery reaction. They could use many things, as long as its thin, and porous and does not conduct. In an AGM battery the glass matt holds the electrolyte. Thats not needed in a gel battery. So the fact that they use it is incidental. It does not change the performance.

But it does allow them to claim its something "special". Its not. Its just a reasonably good lead based battery. It also does not need a dIfferent charger. Provided the one they ship does the correct voltages, and charges long enough to complete the charge. Around 16 hours for a FULL charge on all lead batteries. But by trying to make the ignorant believe its something "different" they think they can con you into buying these batts from them, and to only use their charger... And as long as you didnt fall off a xmas tree you should see it for what it really is. Hype/marketing $$$ nonsense.

Are these hybrid batteries any good?
No idea. I would need the proper spec sheets, and or to test and measure a set accurately. They might be. But the differences between all quality batteries is very small.

[expresso]

on the order form that i seen on chairs today - they offer a Gel or AGM - you pick the one you want

so far i always received a chair with MK Gell when i picked Gel - thats only when you get a new chair -

then when you need new batteries - if you dont say nothing - you wont get MK Gel - you get some cheap china one

when i used to use Lead- i always requested to get ONLY MK Gel when i asked for batteries - its a special order if they give you a hard time

then speak to the VP an demand thats all you want - or else call the insurance since they charge just about the same for cheap ass batteries

only get the MK gel - now better yet - go lithium of course and forget the vendor all together - or ask for them anyway after a years and have a set for other reasons or another chair

[ex-Gooserider]

It was never said Permobil made anything it was just that if you get a newer 2020 chair it will come with hybrid batteries

Just so you dont fall for all the marketing nonsense, hybrid as a fancy name for something that doesent make a blind bit of difference. They call it hybrid because it uses an AGM batteries inert seperator and a gelled electrolyte.

In an AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) battery the electrolyte acid is soaked into the seperators, in the form of a thin bit of glass fibre tissue to immobilise the acid so it doesent spill. In a normal gel battery that isnt required as they mix a silica gel crystal powder into the acid to thicken it up as a paste instead so it also doesent spill making it air travel safe and user freindly. So it doesent require the glass tissue (glass mat) as its already immobilised and cannot spill. So safe for air travel just like AGM is without a glass fibre seperator. The normal material used for a seperator between plates on gel batts then is nylon mesh, or anything that allows the gelled electrolyte (the acid) to contact the plates and prevent them touching. So the seperator serves no part in the battery reaction. They could use many things, as long as its thin, and porous and does not conduct. In an AGM battery the glass matt holds the electrolyte. Thats not needed in a gel battery. So the fact that they use it is incidental. It does not change the performance.

But it does allow them to claim its something "special". Its not. Its just a reasonably good lead based battery. It also does not need a dIfferent charger. Provided the one they ship does the correct voltages, and charges long enough to complete the charge. Around 16 hours for a FULL charge on all lead batteries. But by trying to make the ignorant believe its something "different" they think they can con you into buying these batts from them, and to only use their charger... And as long as you didnt fall off a xmas tree you should see it for what it really is. Hype/marketing $$$ nonsense.

Are these hybrid batteries any good?
No idea. I would need the proper spec sheets, and or to test and measure a set accurately. They might be. But the differences between all quality batteries is very small.

Purely speculating, but I could see a potential advantage to using the AGM type separators.... The big failure point for Gels seems to be the bubbles in the electrolyte that you get when charging at the overly high voltage put out by most chair chargers..... it seems possible to me that a finer mesh AGM 'sponge' type separator might limit the size of the bubbles or reduce their formation, allowing a slightly faster charge.... Who knows?

Another thing that occurs to me is that if they are pushing the charger and batteries as a 'matched set' then they MAY have optimized the charger output to match the optimal charging curve of the batteries....

The two things together might give them some justification for the claimed benefits...

But then again it may all be hype, and either way I'm not planning to test it...

ex-Gooserider