Punctures!!! Grrrrrrrr

Power wheelchair board for REAL info!

POWERCHAIR MENU! www.wheelchairdriver.com/powerchair-stuff.htm

Re: Punctures!!! Grrrrrrrr

Postby Burgerman » 19 Jun 2022, 15:22

It may for you.

I just decided to go tubeless because the real problem is tubes. They pop like balloons. And if not they are thin, and are stretched so the hole expands and releases the air. On a tubeless tyre the tyre itself is much heavier. And thicker. So a nail or whatever doesent cause deflation, esp if used with a sealer.

So no danger of deflated tyres even with a puncture. This way no need to suffer the harsh ride, short lifespan, and faster battery discharge etc.
User avatar
Burgerman
Site Admin
 
Posts: 60057
Joined: 27 May 2008, 21:24
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Punctures!!! Grrrrrrrr

Postby Fedor » 19 Jun 2022, 16:17

What are the disadvantages of solid tires? Do they wear out faster? Why?
geek | non-native english | bear, vodka, balalaika
Fedor
 
Posts: 149
Joined: 24 Mar 2015, 21:07
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Punctures!!! Grrrrrrrr

Postby Burgerman » 19 Jun 2022, 16:20

Not sure why, but yes they wear out much faster in my experience. Probably because they dont spread the load and flex over the uneven ground. Bit like a styleto heel thing. Mostly they seem like half flat tyres in that they are harder to "push"... And harder ride. My spasm hates them!

Expresso here, used to swear by them. Then he tried pneumatic ones. And now wont have anything else. Like me.
User avatar
Burgerman
Site Admin
 
Posts: 60057
Joined: 27 May 2008, 21:24
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Punctures!!! Grrrrrrrr

Postby Jay_x » 20 Jun 2022, 01:21

can you put a tubeless tire on the Bounder's split rims?
Jay_x
 
Posts: 303
Joined: 30 Dec 2012, 17:31

Re: Punctures!!! Grrrrrrrr

Postby Burgerman » 20 Jun 2022, 01:29

Yes. Only with a tube. At which point you defeated the purpose and any benefit.
Its the tubeless rim, and tyre as a unit that give the benefits. The bead holds tyre in place and means it is secure on rim.



youtu.be/FZQpdKq3HD8
User avatar
Burgerman
Site Admin
 
Posts: 60057
Joined: 27 May 2008, 21:24
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Punctures!!! Grrrrrrrr

Postby Burgerman » 20 Jun 2022, 01:35

Rim with step, or "bump".
Attachments
810_1662.jpg
wider TUBELESS rim like your cars wheel.
810_2151.JPG
Stronger thicker high load and high speed scooter tyre of 120/70-8 fitted. These also have some liquid tyre sealer in just in case. That stuff does not work well in tubes. ALWAYS works without fail on tubeless tyres.
User avatar
Burgerman
Site Admin
 
Posts: 60057
Joined: 27 May 2008, 21:24
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Punctures!!! Grrrrrrrr

Postby Burgerman » 20 Jun 2022, 01:44

And they are a fraction larger in diameter by just half inch, and are lots wider.

From weakling with skinny tyres and tubes to bully. And stronger tubeless tyres with sealer.
Attachments
810_2132.JPG
Quickie-Salsa-2.jpg
User avatar
Burgerman
Site Admin
 
Posts: 60057
Joined: 27 May 2008, 21:24
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Punctures!!! Grrrrrrrr

Postby Burgerman » 20 Jun 2022, 01:49

Before and after (only rear tyres/rims. Front already swapped over...
Attachments
810_2649-small.JPG
Quickie-Salsa8.jpg
User avatar
Burgerman
Site Admin
 
Posts: 60057
Joined: 27 May 2008, 21:24
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Punctures!!! Grrrrrrrr

Postby Scooterman » 20 Jun 2022, 09:30

That was an interesting video.

You can’t get a 2.80/2.50-4 tubeless to fit inside 9 inch forks I ended up selling the tubeless.

For WC use:

The front wheel punctures I get are thorns, hails, glass shards through tread.

Could you paint the inside of the tyre with rubber glue, then inflate tube, hence creating a DIY tubeless tyre! :dance
User avatar
Scooterman
 
Posts: 2688
Joined: 03 Jul 2016, 10:11
Location: Camberley England UK

Re: Punctures!!! Grrrrrrrr

Postby Burgerman » 20 Jun 2022, 09:49

You could try it. Sets too fast though. You would need some slow set type. Or glue the tube before fitting the tyre/tube as one.

They 3.00 x 4 tyres And 280/250 x 4 all go in my forks just fine as you can see. Order the correct forks or buy on eBay used.

Heres the thing though.

The EIGHT inch Diameter ones that are like slicks, for turf use, that I used on my Q700R chair give a bigger footplate/tyre clerance and let you move the footplate back further if you have a central mount one. (which is the only one that makes sense on rear drive). And that was run flat for months by expresso as he wasnt aware of it. It eventually wore funny... So not exactly a danger if you were to get a puncture. And you wont they are much tougher! And should fit your forks too.


THESE https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/ ... &mode=view

Are 8 x 3.00 x 4 slick tyres.
User avatar
Burgerman
Site Admin
 
Posts: 60057
Joined: 27 May 2008, 21:24
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Punctures!!! Grrrrrrrr

Postby Scooterman » 20 Jun 2022, 13:53

Ooh I think they would fit my forks :dance

The mini moto treaded ones I tried last time chocked in the throat of the fork. But there looks to be a fair bit of clearance in your 10 inch forks so might work.

I will google for them cheers
User avatar
Scooterman
 
Posts: 2688
Joined: 03 Jul 2016, 10:11
Location: Camberley England UK

Re: Punctures!!! Grrrrrrrr

Postby Jay_x » 20 Jun 2022, 14:21

what is the width of the chair with those bigger tires? Problem is I need to get on and off the city bus, and it can be a tight fit. Nearly certain those wide tires would make it impossible, even if I could put them on the Bounder which I can't sounds like.
Jay_x
 
Posts: 303
Joined: 30 Dec 2012, 17:31

Re: Punctures!!! Grrrrrrrr

Postby Jay_x » 20 Jun 2022, 14:26

Anyone used something like this? Tire sealant that actively plugs holes, you can see he actually drilled a hole in the tire and the sealant plugged it up fairly quickly. You may still need to carry a pump as you would lose some air but it looks like a good product.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VrEtnMEp3Q
Jay_x
 
Posts: 303
Joined: 30 Dec 2012, 17:31

Re: Punctures!!! Grrrrrrrr

Postby Burgerman » 20 Jun 2022, 14:42

All tyre sealers actively plug holes. Thats the point.
I have been advising people to use these for 20 years. ALL my tyres have some in. All work, some better than othes. But in TUBELESS tyres they are absolutely garanteed to plug a hole as big as a biro. In tubes, you are very lucky if they seal anything at all, as the tube is too thin, expands around any hole bigger than a small thorn or something.

In my TUBELESS (rear drive) tyres I use OFF ROAD sealer, the original called OKO as it has never failed me in 2 decades. Even when I have removed nails etc. Leaks for a few secs, then stops.

Except in tubeless tyres where it does fail often, but even here it can help on very small punctures. So I add some to my caster wheels too. But those dont much matter anyway as I can drive on flat ones...
User avatar
Burgerman
Site Admin
 
Posts: 60057
Joined: 27 May 2008, 21:24
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Punctures!!! Grrrrrrrr

Postby Burgerman » 20 Jun 2022, 14:47

what is the width of the chair with those bigger tires? Problem is I need to get on and off the city bus, and it can be a tight fit. Nearly certain those wide tires would make it impossible, even if I could put them on the Bounder which I can't sounds like.


120mm. In place of your stock "inch" width tyres. Whatever those are. So if they are 3.5 wide, you already have 3.5 x 25.34 = 88.9 or 90mm. So the wider tyres will be 30mm or about 1 inch wider each side after you reduce clearance a little between motor/tyre.

So is that too wide?
If so fit 110/80-8 tyres. And same another 20mm. Or almost an inch.
Or dont use buses...
Everything is a compromise.
User avatar
Burgerman
Site Admin
 
Posts: 60057
Joined: 27 May 2008, 21:24
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Punctures!!! Grrrrrrrr

Postby Scooterman » 20 Jun 2022, 18:57

Bloody Cheek!!! :cussing
Attachments
Screenshot 2022-06-20 at 18.53.42.png
User avatar
Scooterman
 
Posts: 2688
Joined: 03 Jul 2016, 10:11
Location: Camberley England UK

Re: Punctures!!! Grrrrrrrr

Postby Burgerman » 20 Jun 2022, 19:27

Beats me why they marked a 13 inch diameter tyre, meant for a 6 inch rim, that is 4.1 inches wide as 300mm x 150mm x 100mm because its not a mm tyre, and those measurements are wrong anyway.
User avatar
Burgerman
Site Admin
 
Posts: 60057
Joined: 27 May 2008, 21:24
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Punctures!!! Grrrrrrrr

Postby Scooterman » 24 Jun 2022, 10:02

Attachments
profile-inserts1-1.jpg
User avatar
Scooterman
 
Posts: 2688
Joined: 03 Jul 2016, 10:11
Location: Camberley England UK

Re: Punctures!!! Grrrrrrrr

Postby expresso » 24 Jun 2022, 23:57

Dont do the front caster tires with liners - i tried at first and gave me wheel shake like crazy - not worth it -

for the rear tires - yes you can do those - if you use those 8 inch slick tires - you wont have any more flats - trust me - i ran mines for many months not realizing there were flat - you wont know

its a hard rubber tire - works good - but use tubes for the 8 inch not the 9 inch tire tubes that are common 250/280 - 4 - i think - they are too big

when i installed them - i pinched them for sure from day one - never knew - chair ran fine - it got my attention because how it was wearing - then i took it apart to change them - found the tube both with holes from installation -

i installed a new set with the correct size tube - - sitting on shelf till i need them - but they are very very hard to remove - take apart -

so much that i may not get them again after i use the one set i have already on the caster - i may change my mind when time comes but it was very hard -

i almost broke my caster trying to remove it - stock sunrise - plastic caster - i may try a vice to squeeze the rubber next time -
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie 636 - 200ah LifePo4
Bounder Plus - 200Ah LifePo4
expresso
 
Posts: 11667
Joined: 10 May 2010, 03:17
Location: NYC - NY

Re: Punctures!!! Grrrrrrrr

Postby Burgerman » 25 Jun 2022, 01:29

Expressso, those tyres were flat because you ran them with far too low pressure. It wasnt damaged when fitted. The tyre "walked" (creeps) around the rim, so changed position as you rolled along. That in turn tore the tube as it tried to turn with the tyre but was held in the wheel rim by its valve.

If you had used say 30PSI in them it would have held the tyre tight onto the rim, and no "walk" and no tube damage. Personally I have 45PSI in mine. As in spite of them being "tough" tyres they still need some substantial pressure to prevent the tyre moving on the rim as you roll.

So you should not have the same issues next time. As long as you put in adequate air. Fit them and dont worry!
User avatar
Burgerman
Site Admin
 
Posts: 60057
Joined: 27 May 2008, 21:24
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Punctures!!! Grrrrrrrr

Postby expresso » 25 Jun 2022, 03:37

no the tube got a hole in them from the tube being too large for the tire - there were stuffed in there - didnt fit right - i didnt think nothing of it

i had air in them when i first installed them - i did fill them - not to 35psi - but with the correct size tube - its fine - fits nicely -

either way by the time i use them could be another year or more - by then who knows how i feel about them - i liked them - but removing them was a real pain -
when the time comes if its too hard to remove etc, i just wont buy them again - but they are strong and you dont have to worry about a flat for sure

i dont seem to wear mines as fast as you do - i have about 3 sets of the another tire - and the one slick already mounted on casters in case i have to swap out a set - its ready -

i was expecting to wear them faster so i got extra sets - but they seem to last - i am using the kenda on my main chair and the duro trap on my other chair - both work fine - not as hard the rubber tire as the slick - - but much easier to install and remove -

i wont remove those slicks till they wear out to the bone i think -
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie 636 - 200ah LifePo4
Bounder Plus - 200Ah LifePo4
expresso
 
Posts: 11667
Joined: 10 May 2010, 03:17
Location: NYC - NY

Re: Punctures!!! Grrrrrrrr

Postby Burgerman » 25 Jun 2022, 07:20

Was the hole in the tube next to the valve? If so I am right!
If not then you are right...

But I seem to remember you saying that the hole was next to the valve. And that you were running a really low pressure. Which would cause that.
User avatar
Burgerman
Site Admin
 
Posts: 60057
Joined: 27 May 2008, 21:24
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Punctures!!! Grrrrrrrr

Postby expresso » 25 Jun 2022, 22:44

it wasnt close nor too far from the valve - i didnt run them low pressure - - i did on my other tires on my other chairs -

but this one i installed and filled up - i never used more than 20psi on any of my front caster wheels ever - this was the only time this happened this way

it was the tube - it was too large for the tire - - looked like intestines all shoved in there - those are the only tubes i had - since all my front tires are the same size -


either way - this was the only tire it happened to - and i ran my others much lower than 20 psi at times - i settled on 20psi a long time ago - works for me

i havnt changed any tubes in years - i think i did only once before because of the slime at first - clogged up the valve and i stopped using slime on my front tires -

only the bounder has slime in all tires - the rest of my chairs - just the rear tires - not slime anymore - another brand i found a while back -

i am not 100% on my take on this- who knows no one is - your have a point - i dont feel it was that - based on many things -

first being the tube size - was just too large a tube - i could have and may have pinched them on install from the start - i do recall filling it with air first time - and never again - never felt a need to - i ran it a while not much i believe - just the way it was wearing got my attention -

or else i could have just used it till the end -

all i wanted to say was for scooterman not to worry about it if he gets those 8 inch tires - and correct size tube - for 8 inch tire - - he wont have to worry - even if tube ever went flat - he wont even know it -

and not use tire liners on the front - they gave me issues when i first tired them - being afraid of flats when i first went to tubes - about 6 years now

managed to avoid them - i noticed once when i got home - after 4 and years of the rear tire - was worn - green slime on the outside - but tire was not flat

i changed everything since there were worn - and one time on the bounder same way - i noticed the slime outside on the tire at home - same thing worn tires -

changed everything and added tire liner to the bounder only - the other tires are thick and strong - i stopped thinking about it years ago and just ride -

i do watch though when i am out - to avoid glass etc,

i use 28 psi rear and 20 psi front - any more than that - its hard - - in that case whats the use - might as well get flat free if it feels the same -

i wanted soft comfortable - - the bounder - thats another story- hard as a rock even with Air and tubes etc, -
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie 636 - 200ah LifePo4
Bounder Plus - 200Ah LifePo4
expresso
 
Posts: 11667
Joined: 10 May 2010, 03:17
Location: NYC - NY

Re: Punctures!!! Grrrrrrrr

Postby Burgerman » 25 Jun 2022, 23:13

Large tube isnt a problem. They cannot move once inflated. Its like blowing up a balloon in a small box. Its just fine. Doesent matter.

And in those small 8 inch tyres 20psi is far too low. They are stiff, and small area cross section. That means not much force pushing the sidewall sideways. And solid and so they try to walk on the rim as you roll. Tearing the tube. Trust me it will happen again if you try to use 20psi. Regardless of tube size. The pressure is the only thing pushing hard against the rims edges that stops this happening through friction. 30 to 50 psi recommended for those tyres.
User avatar
Burgerman
Site Admin
 
Posts: 60057
Joined: 27 May 2008, 21:24
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Punctures!!! Grrrrrrrr

Postby expresso » 26 Jun 2022, 01:55

i use 20 PSI on all my other tires and nothing happen to them - they are fine -

it just happened to this one tire the slick and the tube was too large to fit - i had to cram in there - either way - its fine - i have the correct size tube in there now - they are not in use - by the time i put them in use - could be years - i dont seem to wear mines out as fast i though they would

i wanted to just let scooterman know this - he should use the correct size tube - and no liners -


if i have to put more PSI in any of my front tires - i just go back to flat free solid since it will feel the same to me anyway - maybe you need higher PSI - i dont - they work fine - i never had this problem before - just this one time with this slick tire - and using a tube too large to fit - i am pretty sure it had something to do with it - even if not the whole reason -

if scooterman wants to try the larger tube in the slick - he can see for himself - i would suggest not to - use the correct size tube - i dont want to talk about my tubes or tires - - this was scootermans post about his tires - i wanted to give him a heads up - so he dosnt make the same mistakes i made - cheers
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie 636 - 200ah LifePo4
Bounder Plus - 200Ah LifePo4
expresso
 
Posts: 11667
Joined: 10 May 2010, 03:17
Location: NYC - NY

Re: Punctures!!! Grrrrrrrr

Postby Burgerman » 26 Jun 2022, 08:27

i use 20 PSI on all my other tires and nothing happen to them - they are fine -


Yes mine too. I never mentioned putting a lot of pressure in those.

But on the small tyres theres only around half the side area of the bigger tyres. HALF as much force trying to keep the tyre pushed onto the sides of the rim. So they NEED more pressure. And also because they are so stiff, the tyres sides have less flex, so much more force pushing the tyre around the rim as it deforms under load. This makes them walk around the rim. If they turn maybe 1/4 of a turn during a trip the tube tears. This only occurs initially due to a lubricant being used to fit them. Eventually they will likely "stick" in place.

Its completely irrelivant what pressure you use in the much larger volume 9 or 10 inch caster tyres. You are comparing a totally different tyre and size.
With these you NEED at least 30psi minimum. And preferably a lot more. I have 50psi in mine and they drop to around 40 in a few weeks. So I top them up regularly. You cannot run 20 in those tyres. If you try they will likely tear the tubes. I presume both were damaged?


Yes the ride IS harder. It has to be they are smaller tyres, less sidewall, less volume (by half) and if that causes you problems they are not for you.

I only use them on the Q700R chair, as it has front suspension. Which means they feel fine.
User avatar
Burgerman
Site Admin
 
Posts: 60057
Joined: 27 May 2008, 21:24
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Punctures!!! Grrrrrrrr

Postby Burgerman » 26 Jun 2022, 08:34

Its a similar story with these.
https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/ ... &mode=view

You NEED at least 25PSI to be sure then dont deflate as they are tubeless. For the same reason, low profile, and less sidewall to flex as you roll.
User avatar
Burgerman
Site Admin
 
Posts: 60057
Joined: 27 May 2008, 21:24
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Punctures!!! Grrrrrrrr

Postby expresso » 26 Jun 2022, 15:06

i do fine with the other tires i am using - the one last set of slicks are mounted on rim and on shelf waiting for if i need them - i will use them next

could be a year or two before i would need to change tires - not worried about it - i give it a try next time at 25 PSI with the slick next time around and see how it goes - i just leave it till it wears out and that will be it for the slick -

i like the look and it felt fine overall - - too hard to install and remove - and if its too hard a ride due to the higher PSI i may use next time -

its not worth it for my use - i want comfort - too many bumps bad roads cracks etc, - the quickie does great with comfort - i might be getting old - i feel it more now - hard rides etc,

i get what your saying about the tube moving inside - i can see that happening also - only had this problem with the slick tire - since the tube was Way too large to fit nicely in there - it had something to do with it for sure

smaller tube i installed on the other set - fit perfect - i am sure when i get around to that set - it will be better - i can then make a better judgement about the slick then -
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie 636 - 200ah LifePo4
Bounder Plus - 200Ah LifePo4
expresso
 
Posts: 11667
Joined: 10 May 2010, 03:17
Location: NYC - NY

Re: Punctures!!! Grrrrrrrr

Postby Burgerman » 26 Jun 2022, 17:22

Quickies Q500R has no front suspension. But the Q700R has. They both look as if they do. So hopefully the Q700R may be available by the time you need a new one. Because it needs those tyres. Because its front forks are closer together than most chairs. In order to properly get the centre plate to work. Or the whole thing ends up too nose heavy and long.

Just something to think about. When they dropped the Quickie Salsa/Jive they replaced it with the Q500/700R. But they failed, the old salsa, when PROPERLY ordered, with correct parts, and lightly modified is a better chair, wider at the front, seating far more rigid, and better to use. At 2/3rds the cost.

Salsa, better. If configures right initially. And modded. https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/ ... 00#p122818
Q700R not as good. And needs similar changes. But more of them, and is less rigid/strong. https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/ ... 33#p171026
User avatar
Burgerman
Site Admin
 
Posts: 60057
Joined: 27 May 2008, 21:24
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Punctures!!! Grrrrrrrr

Postby expresso » 26 Jun 2022, 17:44

dont think we are getting the 500R now - i noticed they show a 200R along with the 500H - which i dont like either of them - i seen a 500H outside the other day - i didnt like it - was an OLD lady in it - seems to wimpy - was a fast glance - i seen her a few times now around my area - i am sure to see her again

disappointed with sunrise - it will be a long while before i can get another chair - and thats fine with me now since i dont like anything out there - the only one is the RWD frontier - i like - just slow for me - but when i am ready for a new chair - speed may not be my main concern then - i am fine with the 646 i have - speed wise its about right - decent and comfortable - i feel best in that chair now

i will hold on to them till the end - i have two - so hopefully by then - 500R will show up - but i dont feel it will now - why would they bring it now - they will push the 500H and 200R for the lower end class i bet - the other chair maybe an invacare - i never liked invacare though but the new avira - looks decent - not sure its here either in the states as an option
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie 636 - 200ah LifePo4
Bounder Plus - 200Ah LifePo4
expresso
 
Posts: 11667
Joined: 10 May 2010, 03:17
Location: NYC - NY

PreviousNext

Return to Everything Powerchair

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Qvickster, rover220, shirley_hkg and 11 guests

cron

 

  eXTReMe Tracker