Sunrise EU/UK vs Sunrise US A bit of a rant

[Fusiongoat]

The purpose of this thread will be to start a discussion of the reasons behind the fact that Sunrise EU/UK offers both a broader and superior selection of power chairs that Sunrise US. For this discussion we will exclude Magic Mobility chairs, which Sunrise treats differently.

First, let's compare the complete list of power chairs available from Sunrise in the US vs the UK. The US list is short:
https://www.sunrisemedical.com/power-wh ... rs/quickie
Not only is the UK list much longer but it contains more options at every price point:
https://www.sunrisemedical.co.uk/powere ... heelchairs
Of particular relevance to users of this website is the sale of the high end Q700R and Q700F in the UK versus the complete absence from the US market. I should note here, however, that Sunrise recently appears to have completed the process to sell the Q700F in the US. Sunrise previously, however, also completed the process to sell the Magic 360 chair in the US but neither has appeared on the market. This could very well be due to supply chain / inflation issues. Nonetheless, it's not clear to me that the Q700R is coming to the US. This is in spite of the fact that Invacare has launched their RWD chair in the US and one might expect Sunrise to try harder to compete with this. The fact is, however, that the availability of chairs from Sunrise doesn't seem to follow this logic. But why is this?
Some explanations:
1). The approval process for importation and sale of medical devices to the US is complicated and involves a series of steps before a chair can be effectively sold. This includes approval from the FDA, testing to determine how public and private funders will reimburse the chair, and separate steps depending on whether the chair will be manufactured in the U.S. or imported. I believe now, however, essentially all higher end powerchairs are manufactured domestically rather than imported. Of course, I understand that this is true only in the sense that the process is completed in the US from inputs from the global supply chain. Anyway, the point is each individual chair has to be approved through a ridiculous bureaucratic process that might lead manufacturers to limit the number of chairs they import. Nonetheless, this explanation is not satisfactory because both Invacare and Permobil have chosen to sell their high-end chairs in the U.S., whereas Sunrise has limited its high end selection to MWD chairs and the Q500H.
2). The funding system in the US encourages manufacturers to focus on seating functions rather than diversity of bases. Seating functions such as tilt/recline/elevate are reimbursed at a relatively high rate in the US. While the MSRPs on US order forms are not real and no one pays them, dealers are paid much more for seating functions in the US than in the UK. This, I believe, is why Permobil is focused so much on their power functions including anterior tilt, etc. This market mechanism is deleterious because it encourages focus on use of the chair indoors rather than on actual mobility. But as far our topic -- it really does not matter what base you use if the focus is all on the seating functions. This is a strong economic incentive and it explains partly why Permobil pursues its strategy of similar chassis with rearrangement of wheels, etc.
3. The influence of therapists and other ill-informed able-bodied professionals discourages any focus on things that matter for real mobility. Therapists don't ordinarily know anything about physics nor are they actually concerned primarily with mobility. What they are concerned with is using their expertise to achieve outcomes in regard to positioning, ignoring the fact that the real purpose of a wheelchair is mobility. This is because the entire system is overly medicalized and obsessed with characteristics of people's disabilities rather than what should be the actual goal of a power wheelchair. It somehow never occurs to these people that the primary goal of a wheelchair should be to mimic as closely as possible an able-bodied person's ability to achieve locomotion in the widest varieties of environments possible. Of course, this is further impaired by the backward nature of power wheelchair technology but that is amply covered elsewhere on this site.
4. American politicians, especially conservatives, are Puritanical weirdos who believe that disabled people are just trying to cheat the government out of money. Essentially what this amounts to is the belief that only certain disabled people really need access to high quality products and everyrone else is trying to get more than they really need. This has to do with the fact that people in charge making policy in these issues don't have the slightest understanding of the technological and scientific basis of wheelchairs. Basically, they do not understand that adequately designed power chairs could provide people with mobility that would be, to a large extent, comparable to the mobility that able bodied people have. Let's be honest, however -- some people do understand this and just don't care. I believe this is largely because of the influence of Puritanism in the United States: Instead of recognizing that physical disability is just a naturally-occurring outcome of the complexity of human life Americans have to come up with convoluted moralisms according to which some people "deserve" access to the best mobility equipment and others do not. This leads to pointless restrictions on access to technology, for example, there is no real reason to limit the speed on motors since my understanding is faster motors do not cost more to produce.
5. Sunrise Medical US has a seemingly ridiculous policy whereby they will not provide a chair with 120A R-net and 10 km/h motors. Amy Lior will provide chairs with 10km/h motors and 120 a R-net. I am not sure why this is but it appears that Sunrise US tells people that higher torque motors "don't need" higher amp controllers. I can only surmise that this is only a financial decision, but it limits the appeal of Sunrise products or at least it should.
6. All in all, while Sunrise UK products present a relatively good array of options American consumers should be less inclined to prefer Sunrise products because the selection in the US is not very good. Of course, I have a Sunrise chair, but as I said, Magic Mobility is a different animal.
Discuss or not

[Burgerman]

The whole thing is because your "private" medical system is as far from a free market capitalist system as its possible to get. Its massively over regulated and controlled. You are not the customer waving the cash around.

You dont have this problem in the REAL free market capitalist non medical world do you?
If you want a car, a sofa, a phone, TV, all the various businesses do anything possible to PLEASE THE PAYING CUSTOMER because they want your cash.

We have a socialist run "free" NHS system in the UK. Its completely useless. Unbelievably wasteful. You cannot even get an ambulance, or a doctor appointment. You wouldnt believe the stories I could tell you. However...

The reason that I pushed for the gov to give ME the cash, so that I could spend their money myself is because then the powerchair seller has to please ME. Not some over legislated insurer or gov body etc in order to get my cash.

If everyone pushed for the same with the same level of "enthusiasm" as I did, so that we have thousands of end users running around waving wads of cash, then we would have the same kind of dealers as we have in the normal free market real world. Like going into a motorcycle shop. They would bend over backwards to give you whatever you wanted.

We partly have this in the UK and much of europe anyway. Why? Because the NHS remit is to supply only a INDOOR capable 4mph chair that suits a users clinical requirements. So instead most disabled people get more in handouts to live on, and to get about. For e.g we already get a benefit that is 240 a month for "help getting around" called a mobility component, if you are disabled enough to need it. This can be used for taxis, busses, trains, or towards a car/van. Or a powerchair that is suitable for OUTDOOR use. As such MOST high end rehab style chairs are purchased privately or even leased by the end user. This is probably why theres around half a dozen companies offering rear drive, mid, hybrid, front options etc here. They have to offer me what I want or I go elsewhere and they make no money...

[martin007]

I think Burgerman is on the right track...

[ex-Gooserider]

I agree totally w/ both FG and BM

ex-Gooserider

[swalker]

To pile on, I believe that Medicare's influence on the wheelchair market is a significant contributor to the disfunction.

Medicare (the US Government insurance program for the elderly and disabled) has very specific rules about wheelchairs. They will only fund a wheelchair if the recipient has a demonstrated need for one to accomplish essential "Activities of Daily Living". These are, unfortunately, confined to getting in and out of a bed or chair, toileting, eating, etc. They are specifically limited to activities INSIDE of a home.

They see no reason to fund a wheelchair that would allow you to get to your mailbox (often at the end of a driveway or down the street), for example.

Medicare will cover at most a "group 3" wheelchair (like a Permobil F3 or M3), and then only with extensive justification.

Most insurance companies follow the lead of Medicare, covering only the type of wheelchair Medicare will cover.

My lifestyle does not fit a group 3 wheelchair. I realized years ago that if I want to live an active life I need ignore Medicare (which I am now covered by) and buy a wheelchair that fits my needs. I buy used wheelchairs, which wind up costing less than my copay if Medicare bought me a new wheelchair.

For example, 3 years ago, Medicare approved me for a Permobil F5 VS wheelchair. That is a group 4 wheelchair with a standing feature. It took about a year to get this approval. They only approved the F5 because I had a demonstrated need for the standing feature and the standing feature was only offered in the F5. But, I would have had to pay the entire cost of the standing feature. They estimated my out of pocket cost at $18,000 to $20,000. I told them no and bought a used wheelchair off of craigslist.

It is a stupid situation, but I am powerless to change it.

And, then there are the therapists who know little to nothing about living with a wheelchair. They steer people to a midwheel drive model because it just makes more sense to them (they are perceived as being more intuitive to turn) or they are directly or indirectly incentivized to do so by the manufacturers. If they spent a week (or even a day) in a wheelchair, they would find out they are wrong, but most apparently don't do that.

Steve

[Burgerman]

I really do feel for you american/canadians. You are trapped in a one size fits all corrupt over regulated restricted choice system. And much of what IS available, like storm, or whatever is 3 generations out of date.

I spent an hour looking at the US markets offerings.
I noticed a huge lack of "shops" of the type we see here on the high street or online at all. And those that I do find have an unbelievable lack of choice in manufacturers and models of powerchairs. Its a crazy situation for the largest western civilised country in the world. We have more makes, more models and more variations. And we have easy access and high street dealers that will supply you. With parts too. That of course doesent help you.

You are going to need to change the system. I was once told that this was impossible too here. And that the useless NHS and its wheelchair services that provides indoor only basic motorised deckchairs, under protest, would never be handing me the cash every 3 years to buy my own. Yet I am more stubourn that a very stubourn thing. I do not give up! And I did beat the system. It wasnt easy. I had the UK health department from westminster in my garden sat drincking coffee. With the local authority (town council big wiggs) and the NHS hospital area administrators, and the embarrassed wheelchair services also there. After this highly humerous meeting I got a pilot scheme started. That was 12? years back. And it was eventually rolled out across the country. And the NHS wheelchair services are still doing everything they can to ignore it and misinterpret it. And fighting it. But legally anyone can do what I do.

That means that I get all the options. For e.g last time I bought a 13.5k "used" Q700R chair (was delivered, never used, returned to a dealer). So actually new. Single digit miles. For 4.2k with every one of the best options ticked. Inc powwer everything and centre mount power footplate. So I have enough change to buy it a set of 200Ah lithium batts, and a set of spare motors, and fat rims and tyres! Meanwhile I now have 2 unused chairs, and these are mostly kept under a sheet as backups. It builds, if you plan it right!

[jefferso]

Medicare will cover at most a "group 3" wheelchair (like a Permobil F3 or M3), and then only with extensive justification.

It's been more than 10 years, but I challenged Medicare's refusal to pay for a Group 4 chair when I got my Permobil C500 standing chair. I wrote a bit about it here:

https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/ ... 35#p154835

It took a long time and a lot of paperwork, along with putting the difference of cost on a credit card until I got reimbursed, but I did succeed in getting Medicare to pay for it, including the standing function, in the end after the case was reviewed by an administrative law judge. Such determinations are not precedent setting unfortunately, so my case can't be used to force Medicare to do anything different, but it is possible.

[Burgerman]

Well done. You have to be extremely stubourn, armed to the teeth with facts and enough wit to use them wisely and the ability to wear them down to get a decent powerchair here too. And I am.
I would say that 99% of people dont have the stamina, the determination or the sheer will power to battle them adequatey to win. And accept pretty much what they are offered and go with the flow. It shouldnt be this way. But it is.

[Jay_x]

swalker is correct, that is the main over bearing influence here and it is why the mid wheel is preferred.

[martin007]

Well done. You have to be extremely stubourn, armed to the teeth with facts and enough wit to use them wisely and the ability to wear them down to get a decent powerchair here too. And I am.
I would say that 99% of people dont have the stamina, the determination or the sheer will power to battle them adequatey to win. And accept pretty much what they are offered and go with the flow. It shouldnt be this way. But it is.

There is another ingredient that you have not mentioned.
The British legal and administrative system works decently.
Common sense prevails on many occasions.
In the US, money prevails over reason, and something similar happens in Spain.
From outside the UK. looks like a paradise...

[Burgerman]

Maybe but all the socialist run stuff is hopeless. NHS, police, etc hell you cant even get an ambulance! Many wait dying for SIX HOURS. And people die long before getting a doctor apointment. Try getting a NHS dentist! Theres people waiting decades. There are TEN PERCENT of the entire country attempting to have NHS treatment that have waited between 2 and 8 YEARS so far! And this costs us almost 21 percent of the entire countries income. Socialist stuff never works.

They all get the money, wages, sprinkled in from the top. They then do everything possible to do as little actual productive work as possible, while attempting to push any responibility further down the line. They find endless ways to add extra layers, to have more meetings, panels, training, holidays, breaks, and ever more inventive ways to make it impossible to contact anyone that matters. Why? They get paid regardless. So no reason to please you. No boss on their back that needs the customers to come and spend. Its got to the point that anyone with anything that really matters pays AGAIN to get it done privatly or overseas. Or just jives up and loses all interest. But at least the cops are all buy sat behind computers trying to arrest people for "incorrect opinions. While they completely ignore all the actual law breaking or criminal activity. While driving around in their woke rainbow LGBT )and all the rest) cars. They wont get out of one though.

Meanwhile our stupid goverment have spent 25 years shutting doew all the coal, oil, natural gas reserves around our coasts and refusing to use our on land gas, oil, or coal (they closed 135 coal mines and almost as many coal power stations). Those were cheap! Fuel for literally 1/10th the cost of what we pay now.

And then we had around 20 nuclear power stations. They refused to renew these as they aged and now most of whats left are closing in the next few years. Instead we are begging other countries to sell us the very same fossil fuels at 10x the cost i some cases and now threatening us with power cuts this winter. And blaming a world market energy shortage! You really couldnt make it up. And still the morons are pushing those damned windmills as the solution. When some days they dont even reach 1% of our needs! They are all obviously a bit simple.

[martin007]

If you look, the countries of Anglosaxon tradition and caucasic population are highly developed.
UK, U.S., Canada, Australia, Nez Zeland, etc.

Argentina, Chile and Uruguay have caucasic population and natural resources.
The problem they drag is inheritance of Spanish culture.

[Burgerman]

But why is that bad?

[martin007]

But why is that bad?

Because people and nations enter a process with no way out.

[Gnomatic]

I was able to get a Group 4 chair approved. It took forever it seemed, lots of paperwork, appeals etc, but I finally got my V6.

Now, all I started asking for was the "Group 3" version of the V6 from Medicare/Medicaid, and pay out of pocket for the upgrades that would that turn it into a "Group 4" V6. Most DME's wouldn't touch it, especially the national ones. The Group 3 V6 is still expensive, and given what DMEs are reimbursed for Group 3 chairs, they make little $. So even finding a DME willing to go through the hassle of paperwork etc to seek pre authorization for the chair I wanted was next to impossible. Eventually one was found, one of the few remaining mom & pop DMEs left. A convenient 2.5hr drive away. But they at least got the process going. Funny thing is, Medicare/Medicaid came back and said I wasn't eligible for even a Group 3 chair. This was BS. In a way however, it was fortunate. Because I was definitely eligible for a Group 3 chair, I was confident going into the appeals process. Eventually, they approved a fully blown Group 4 V6 for me with lots of extras just to make me go away. They were wrong and knew it.

As for Sunrise taking over US distributorship of Magic Mobility branded chairs and parts for servicing ets, well lets just say I'm not impressed so far.

[ex-Gooserider]

One good thing that recently happened, although it may be a while before we see huge results is the passage of a Wheelchair specific "Right to Repair" law in Colorado... This basically requires manufacturers to make the same information and parts available to retail customers (presumably including programming tools at the 'dealer' level at a minimum) as they offer to dealers....

If it works the way that the automotive laws did when they were passed a few years back, it should open things up for repair to a significant degree...

Even if it is only on the books in one state, it potentially means that a dealer in CO can make stuff available to people in other states (or even a chair owner could....)

ex-Gooserider

[Fusiongoat]

One good thing that recently happened, although it may be a while before we see huge results is the passage of a Wheelchair specific "Right to Repair" law in Colorado... This basically requires manufacturers to make the same information and parts available to retail customers (presumably including programming tools at the 'dealer' level at a minimum) as they offer to dealers....

If it works the way that the automotive laws did when they were passed a few years back, it should open things up for repair to a significant degree...

Even if it is only on the books in one state, it potentially means that a dealer in CO can make stuff available to people in other states (or even a chair owner could....)

ex-Gooserider

Or I Could because I'm in Colorado I think that once a person gets a manual it can be posted anywhere. Software I'm less sure about. Pride dealer software is useless because they have to approve changes anyway, right?

[Burgerman]

Do they?

The whole point of dealer level which is also user level, and already available to most peole right there on the order form, is that it is already restricted. So that anything that the manufacturer doesent aprove of is already either restricted (walls) or completely missing in the menu. Or greyed out.

For e.g. You can only set "accelerations" or "decelerations" to a certain level. Because the OEM versions allow you to set "walls". Or many things such as gyro settings, or motor compensation, and other things they dont want you to change are simply missing or greyed out.

In order to hide thise limits from an unsuspecting user, the likes of Dynamic, use a thing called a "scaler". So that you might THINK you set say turn acceleration to "100" but you didnt really. Since on the OEM version, you have a thing call a turn acceleration scaler. Which may be set to say 40 or 50%. So your "100" can be limited by a scaler in the background. And it may also be limited to you entering "70" as a maximum too.

The idea being that the dealer level tools are safe for any numpty inc a dealer to use. They only allow the "pre approved" settings regardless.
Even pride have a "programmer" listed in the prescription form. And that means DEALER (dumbed down pre approved safe) programmer. Which are generally useless.

[Burgerman]

pride presciption form example.

https://www.quantumrehab.com/pdf/order- ... toured.pdf

Under accessories.

Same thing with sunrise and invacare.

[martin007]

One good thing that recently happened, although it may be a while before we see huge results is the passage of a Wheelchair specific "Right to Repair" law in Colorado... This basically requires manufacturers to make the same information and parts available to retail customers (presumably including programming tools at the 'dealer' level at a minimum) as they offer to dealers....

If it works the way that the automotive laws did when they were passed a few years back, it should open things up for repair to a significant degree...

Even if it is only on the books in one state, it potentially means that a dealer in CO can make stuff available to people in other states (or even a chair owner could....)

ex-Gooserider

In my land there is a very old saying "quien hizo la ley hizo la trampa."
In English it would be something like "who made the law cheated."

[ex-Gooserider]

One good thing that recently happened, although it may be a while before we see huge results is the passage of a Wheelchair specific "Right to Repair" law in Colorado... This basically requires manufacturers to make the same information and parts available to retail customers (presumably including programming tools at the 'dealer' level at a minimum) as they offer to dealers....

If it works the way that the automotive laws did when they were passed a few years back, it should open things up for repair to a significant degree...

Even if it is only on the books in one state, it potentially means that a dealer in CO can make stuff available to people in other states (or even a chair owner could....)

ex-Gooserider

Or I Could because I'm in Colorado I think that once a person gets a manual it can be posted anywhere. Software I'm less sure about. Pride dealer software is useless because they have to approve changes anyway, right?

Exactly - manuals, software, parts, whatever... The hope expressed by the Right to Repair folks is that it will work the same way that car repair worked when MA passed the first automotive R2R initiative several years back - it basically forced the manufacturers to open things up nationally... As one example, prior to the MA initiative, the repair shops only had access to the meanings of a limited subset of the codes you could get from the OBD port. For the rest you had to go to a dealer. Now you can get the meanings for ALL the codes...

Unfortunately it probably won't get us access to OEM level software, but might make it easier to at least get dealer level.

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

Err... Dealer level is already available right on every order form?

And parts and other documentation too, such as, https://www.sunrisemedical.co.uk/support/documentation

Although the newer stuff is on a parts website now, also user accessible if you log in as guest/guest for sunrise. Others have something similar.

[Burgerman]

Heres one reason I can buy a number of rear drive chairs from many manufacturers.

There are punters wandering around like me with £££ looking to buy a chair. So that the sellers (mobility dealers, high street or huge operators and online) are looking to give the punter, me, what I want! They WANT my money. Capitalist free market forces in action. This is missing in the USA.

I was doing this from 2008. Every 3 years.

Personal Wheelchair Budgets were announced in 2016

Since Personal Wheelchair Budgets were announced in 2016, there have been pilot schemes in five areas, including Gloucestershire, replacing vouchers with a personal budget which could be used for an individual’s choice of wheelchair, either within NHS wheelchair services or from an alternative provider.

EDIT, BURGERMAN. I was on the initial pilot scheme, which I started, as a scheme of ONE user about 14 years ago... But the rest of the country only just found out in 2016...THIS was the pilot. Others joined later. So the above is not a pilot but the rollout!

Since April 2017, all CCGs (Clinical Commissioning Groups) have been expected to develop plans for delivering Personal Wheelchair Budgets in their area.

In February 2019, the government announced that wheelchair users whose posture and mobility needs impact their wider health and social care needs would have a legal right to a personal health budget.

The latest announcement states that anybody who is eligible for an NHS wheelchair can receive a personal health budget .




Why have a personal budget?

The intention is to give people who use NHS wheelchair services greater choice and control.

This should be achieved through providing holistic assessments that take into account people’s wider needs and how good wheelchair provision can increase independence and improve their health and wellbeing outcomes.

It should enable people to identify their own health and wellbeing outcomes; provide them with more integrated services; and give better information about local choices available.

Wheelchair vouchers are still operating alongside personal wheelchair budgets.




The aims of the personal wheelchair budget model

Implemented well, personal wheelchair budgets should provide increased flexibility, and enable people to access the right wheelchair – one which not only meets their health and wellbeing needs, but also any specific requirements that they identify as most important to them.

They should transfer control over the choice of a wheelchair to users and their families, and provide greater transparency about choices available, including the amount of funding and what should be included.

The budget planning will look at future servicing, repair and replacement needs, as well as the initial purchase of a chair.

The personal wheelchair budget represents an important step towards integrating wheelchair provision into an individual’s wider care, ensuring a more joined-up approach.

Statistically, the new system will also help NHS England to keep meaningful data about wheelchair provision, which should improve services, and iron out variations across the country.

A personal wheelchair budget will give the user a level of choice and control that they are comfortable with. They may choose to use their personal wheelchair budget within the NHS range that is available locally.

Alternatively, they can add to the budget, to enhance what is available from the NHS, or they can take it to an independent provider and purchase their wheelchair there.

Or ebay, direct witth a decent discount, or buy/sell upgrade used or new, or build your own.

[ex-Gooserider]

Err... Dealer level is already available right on every order form?

And parts and other documentation too, such as, https://www.sunrisemedical.co.uk/support/documentation

Although the newer stuff is on a parts website now, also user accessible if you log in as guest/guest for sunrise. Others have something similar.

Not in the US... Documentation MIGHT be available, depends on the manufacturer, and how much access they give non-professionals (many hide all the good stuff behind login walls that require their approval to get an account... Parts are available from a few 3rd party retailers (if they are popular and in enough demand) but NOT from manufacturers - you call them and will be told to 'call your dealer'....

The UK / EU sites are nice, but they don't have stuff for the US models, only the ones we can't get here. (and I suspect they won't ship stuff to the US)

Ebay and so forth are available, but mostly only for used stuff...

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

We get told to call your dealer too. Same with say ford motor company. And so you take the part number to a dealer and order! Or use an online one.

IF the parts site is behind some firewall, the dealer has access. So you have to waste his time. But thers alsways a way here with parts PDF files or lookup sites like the sunparts ones
And a dealer level programmer is on this parts list too. Just take the part number (108532) to any high street or dealer website. shown below...

[Fusiongoat]

We get told to call your dealer too. Same with say ford motor company. And so you take the part number to a dealer and order! Or use an online one.

IF the parts site is behind some firewall, the dealer has access. So you have to waste his time. But thers alsways a way here with parts PDF files or lookup sites like the sunparts ones
And a dealer level programmer is on this parts list too. Just take the part number (108532) to any high street or dealer website. shown below...

As I understand it, manufacturers and dealers sometimes include clauses in their contracts that effectively prevent what you're describing. I know that some manufacturers Include a clause that only allows the original dealer of a chair to repair it. In theory you would think that this would already be illegal but anti-trust law in the U.S. has been completely gutted. In this case there is no economic incentive for anyone to agree to sell you these parts. Either you have to pay for a repair or you are out of luck. In reality, this isn't always the case because dealers often don't have enough staff to perform the repairs so they will give you the parts. Again, though, it depends on the extent to which they are allowed to. How often do you go to a car mechanic and ask them for advice and they say, Sorry, that's in a manual, I can't divulge that? I guess that does happen with dealers, but that's a bit different because DME retailers are supposedly independent companies, not like car dealerships. The point of these right-to-repair laws is that they limit the contractual freedom of manufacturers and dealers to refuse to sell you a product. Certainly if you are an Austrian kind of economic thinker this is terrible but this is consistent with the tradition of trust busting that used to exist in the US before the Supreme Court destroyed it with various dishonest opinions. If you want to know about this you can look at the ridiculous legal theories of Robert Bork. Bork basically pretended that it's counterproductive for companies to engage in monopolistic practices so somehow that makes antitrust laws inapplicable. These people are not real conservatives -- they are just slaves of corporate interests. My point is free markets are good but in DME they are restricted by the size and power of a few major companies. No doubt also regulation plays a big role in this. I'm sure that health and safety regulations prevent or delay a decent number of power chairs from coming to market in the US.

[Burgerman]

Considerng you are the most capitalist and free market economy in the world you have an awful lot of economy distorting rules, legistaion and plain market distorting stuff going on.

Failure to sell me the parts for a wheelchair here that are available to a "dealer" would be illegal. The only difference is that the dealer would sell you the parts with some markup. So they will want to do so. £££.

[Scooterman]

Sunrise EU/UK vs Sunrise US A bit of a rant

It's the opposite with mobility scooter which I'm guessing aren't covered by Medicare?

US mob scooters don't have the poxy maximum speed limits we have in the UK and EU.

In the US it seems the only limit on top speed is engineering and safety I would guess?

[Burgerman]

In order to be a mobility device (and legally use the footpaths, pedestrian areas) all our scooters and chairs must be able to have some means of sticking to 4 mph. And a max speed of 8mph.

If its faster its a scooter, not a mobility device...

But we certainly have faster scooters? And some powerchairs.

But since the UK is now largely full of laws that restrict EVERTHING and these laws are no longer enforced, and everything from theft, downwards is totally ignored, then you can go as fast as you want, on whatever you want, wherever you choose. And nobody will bother you. Its largely lawless and a free for all now.

[Burgerman]

70mph?

Sit on
https://www.scooter.co.uk/fast-scooters

Stand on
https://www.altriders.com/fastest-elect ... s-reviews/


The thing you are calling a mobility scooter as 4 wheels, so isnt actualy a scooter.
The three wheel ones are not eiter. They are trikes.

How 4 wheeled mobility "scooters" get called scooters beats me. But they are really a type of car/buggy/gof cart thing.