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q700m very nervous is snapping

Postby q700m » 12 Aug 2022, 16:05

my new q700m is very nervous, snapping and braking too hard
in this way for me it is almost uncontrollable.
I have access to it with pc + R-NET dongle, on which parameters should I work for a wheelchair that is less nervous, snapping and with not strong braking?
thank you
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Re: q700m very nervous is snapping

Postby biscuit » 12 Aug 2022, 17:45

Motor load compensation might be too high. If you change it, you can make your wheelchair dangerous, so only try it 5mOhms at a time and test the result... too high and the wheelchair becomes runaway.
Also might be the torque setting is too high.
At least, that's what I had to correct on the VSI and VR2 systems of my chairs. I never did get the Salsa perfect, but recently I got a crazy Cirrus (VSI) that wanted motor load compensation seriously reduced and torque not changed at all and now it is a smooth ride. Burgerman's sticky on making it steer is informative on all the R-net difficulties you are facing
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Re: q700m very nervous is snapping

Postby biscuit » 12 Aug 2022, 17:58

I never bothered about any of that joystick positioning, it is not really so essential as long as your hand is steady with respect to the joystick and the joystick faces forwards! There are people here who don't have that possibility, but bad controller programming (as it usually is) is a nightmare.
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Re: q700m very nervous is snapping

Postby Burgerman » 12 Aug 2022, 18:16

I am going to send you an OVERLAY file.


First save your settings file somewhere safe on your desktop or wherever. In case you want to go back to it Trust me you will not.

This file will ONLY change your drive profiles. And a couple of other parameters. Look inside the R-Net software. And after you install it you will only need this one single profile. The one that says all speeds. Unless you are have the joystick in wrong position and are doing what the previous poster says is OK. Its not! This requires proper joystick technique.

Now this will not change motor compensation, seating, or anything else other than a few drive settings to make it respond properly. Dont be tempted to change anything. Its extremely limited, and will seem like a strange sort of file. Open it in the R-Net program, any version, and then tell it to send to your chair.
It removes all the mushy, deleyed action impossible to control "accelerations" in the turning etc.

Its a balanced linear set of changes that just result in a chair that works set to:
- speed 1 safe for carers and others to move about or you indooes very slowly. But with accurate linear response.
- speed 2 is good indoors, and probably what you will use.
- as above.
- with speed 4 you will probably skip this, as outdoors speed 5 is better.

Test speed 1 and 2 indoors.
Test speeds above this outdoors.

Then please advise.
If its not accurate and easy to cotrol then motor compensation may be wrong. Highly unlikely if its stock factory settings.
Q. What motors doEs it have, 2 or 4 pole. 4 or 6 or 8 mph? And what is motor load compensation actually set to?
Should be...
4 pole, 6mph 45mOhms.
4 pole, 8mph 30 to 35 mOhms. I have seen both from sunrise.
2 pole are generally set to 65 ot 70.

Set too hih its very jumpy. Set too low its gutless, inadequate torque.
NOTE!!! this only works if you DISABLE the GYRO which is the cause of much of the woes. These settings do not work with the gyro. Make sure it says DISABLED!
Attachments
STEER 30 June 22.Rnss
(4.52 KiB) Downloaded 30 times
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Re: q700m very nervous is snapping

Postby Burgerman » 12 Aug 2022, 18:34

Back stick is actual braking. You WANT that high. Or you may hit something.
Rapid deceleration which you dont want is is your problem. Its this way by default because sunrise are bonkers.

This is caused by too high "minimum forward deceleration", and "forward deceleration". Set both of these to as low as you can. Which means you need to set the WALLS to the highest and lowest allowed (thats in OEM Factory tab). And that needs OEM level programmer or at least the OEM software and a workaround. But the file I posted above will do that any way...

Also you need to sort out the steering. And the file I posted will fix your deceleration issue which you are describing as braking, as well as the cant hit a barn door steering. But you *must* disable the gyro or it will be vicious and horrid.
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Re: q700m very nervous is snapping

Postby q700m » 12 Aug 2022, 21:38

I set minimum and maximum accelerations and decelerations all at 0 all iprofiles
braking at 0 on all profiles
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Re: q700m very nervous is snapping

Postby q700m » 12 Aug 2022, 21:57

Burgerman wrote:I am going to send you an OVERLAY file.


First save your settings file somewhere safe on your desktop or wherever. In case you want to go back to it Trust me you will not.

This file will ONLY change your drive profiles. And a couple of other parameters. Look inside the R-Net software. And after you install it you will only need this one single profile. The one that says all speeds. Unless you are have the joystick in wrong position and are doing what the previous poster says is OK. Its not! This requires proper joystick technique.

Now this will not change motor compensation, seating, or anything else other than a few drive settings to make it respond properly. Dont be tempted to change anything. Its extremely limited, and will seem like a strange sort of file. Open it in the R-Net program, any version, and then tell it to send to your chair.
It removes all the mushy, deleyed action impossible to control "accelerations" in the turning etc.

Its a balanced linear set of changes that just result in a chair that works set to:
- speed 1 safe for carers and others to move about or you indooes very slowly. But with accurate linear response.
- speed 2 is good indoors, and probably what you will use.
- as above.
- with speed 4 you will probably skip this, as outdoors speed 5 is better.

Test speed 1 and 2 indoors.
Test speeds above this outdoors.

Then please advise.
If its not accurate and easy to cotrol then motor compensation may be wrong. Highly unlikely if its stock factory settings.
Q. What motors doEs it have, 2 or 4 pole. 4 or 6 or 8 mph? And what is motor load compensation actually set to?
Should be...
4 pole, 6mph 45mOhms.
4 pole, 8mph 30 to 35 mOhms. I have seen both from sunrise.
2 pole are generally set to 65 ot 70.

Set too hih its very jumpy. Set too low its gutless, inadequate torque.
NOTE!!! this only works if you DISABLE the GYRO which is the cause of much of the woes. These settings do not work with the gyro. Make sure it says DISABLED!

I have 8mhp 4-pole engines not if it has the GYRO
with my R-NET program I can't open your files
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Re: q700m very nervous is snapping

Postby Burgerman » 12 Aug 2022, 22:25

Your R-Net program SHOULD open my file.
Open R-Net program.
Go to file/open/ and then select R-NET sub files as per image below!

I have lots of versions of the R-Net program here and it works on all of those.

When you say 0% accelerationS you cannot set that.

I dont know what you are doing. Gyro? You do, or do not have a gyro? If so is it on or off.

Please post your settings file here.

And are you using the Dealer version, or the OEM version. Because dealer is very limited.
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rnet.jpg
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Re: q700m very nervous is snapping

Postby q700m » 12 Aug 2022, 23:10

this is my program

[img]<a%20href='https://postimg.cc/1fjgdpHX'%20target='_blank'><img%20src='https://i.postimg.cc/139pfBVG/Immagine-2022-08-13-000335.png'%20border='0'%20alt='Immagine-2022-08-13-000335'/></a>[/img]
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Re: q700m very nervous is snapping

Postby Burgerman » 12 Aug 2022, 23:22

Thats chinese to me.

Is it for e.g, SUNRISE Version 6.4, OEM?
Is it DEALER or OEM dongle?

Send me your SETTINGS FILE, UPLOAD IT HERE!

You CAN open my file posted earlier. Please do it.
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Re: q700m very nervous is snapping

Postby q700m » 12 Aug 2022, 23:25

Image
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Re: q700m very nervous is snapping

Postby Burgerman » 12 Aug 2022, 23:35

That is the latest SSunrise DEALER version. Which s really a dumbed down end user system.
You cannot for eg set motor compensation with it. I will send you another file that will disable the Gyro in profile 1, and set motor compensation to 35 which should be correct on 8mph motors.

Thats all it does.

PLEASE send me a copy of your full settings file so I can see what is wrong... as soon as possible!
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turn off gyro and set 35mOhms.Rnss
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Re: q700m very nervous is snapping

Postby q700m » 13 Aug 2022, 00:17

this is original file
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originale q70m.R-net
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Re: q700m very nervous is snapping

Postby q700m » 13 Aug 2022, 00:37

I also have a GROOVE 4-pole 8mhp motors
which I can control very well.
and has the high acceleration and deceleration parameters also on the first profile
Attachments
groove.R-net
(4.37 KiB) Downloaded 27 times
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Re: q700m very nervous is snapping

Postby Burgerman » 13 Aug 2022, 00:41

I am looking at it. Its got 40mOhm compensation. Thats OK. It may be better at 35. Either way thats not the problem.
No gyro enabled.
So that just leaves the HOPELESS stock settings.

In about 40 mins after my carer leaves I will modify your profile and re-upload it.
Meanwhile, did you manage to open that first file yet???

That SHOULD fix all your problems.
If not then all I can say is that your hand technique, and joystick position does not allow proper control.
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Re: q700m very nervous is snapping

Postby q700m » 13 Aug 2022, 01:06

Burgerman wrote:I am looking at it. Its got 40mOhm compensation. Thats OK. It may be better at 35. Either way thats not the problem.
No gyro enabled.
So that just leaves the HOPELESS stock settings.

In about 40 mins after my carer leaves I will modify your profile and re-upload it.
Meanwhile, did you manage to open that first file yet???

That SHOULD fix all your problems.
If not then all I can say is that your hand technique, and joystick position does not allow proper control.


the Joystick is this CJSM2 R-Net without BT is sorry
can't you activate BT with the program you have?
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Re: q700m very nervous is snapping

Postby Burgerman » 13 Aug 2022, 08:38

Not unless you purchased a BT one as they are different internally. And slightly more expensive.
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Re: q700m very nervous is snapping

Postby q700m » 13 Aug 2022, 13:05

I have infantile cerebral palsy, so I don't have a steady hand.
the joystick and wheelchair must be as little sensitive as possible otherwise the wheelchair jerks and goes left and right
can anything be done?
I am attaching my file
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q700m mio.R-net
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Re: q700m very nervous is snapping

Postby shirley_hkg » 13 Aug 2022, 13:39


Adjust (Tremor Dampen) will help.
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Re: q700m very nervous is snapping

Postby q700m » 13 Aug 2022, 14:34

Burgerman wrote:I am going to send you an OVERLAY file.


First save your settings file somewhere safe on your desktop or wherever. In case you want to go back to it Trust me you will not.

This file will ONLY change your drive profiles. And a couple of other parameters. Look inside the R-Net software. And after you install it you will only need this one single profile. The one that says all speeds. Unless you are have the joystick in wrong position and are doing what the previous poster says is OK. Its not! This requires proper joystick technique.

Now this will not change motor compensation, seating, or anything else other than a few drive settings to make it respond properly. Dont be tempted to change anything. Its extremely limited, and will seem like a strange sort of file. Open it in the R-Net program, any version, and then tell it to send to your chair.
It removes all the mushy, deleyed action impossible to control "accelerations" in the turning etc.

Its a balanced linear set of changes that just result in a chair that works set to:
- speed 1 safe for carers and others to move about or you indooes very slowly. But with accurate linear response.
- speed 2 is good indoors, and probably what you will use.
- as above.
- with speed 4 you will probably skip this, as outdoors speed 5 is better.

Test speed 1 and 2 indoors.
Test speeds above this outdoors.

Then please advise.
If its not accurate and easy to cotrol then motor compensation may be wrong. Highly unlikely if its stock factory settings.
Q. What motors doEs it have, 2 or 4 pole. 4 or 6 or 8 mph? And what is motor load compensation actually set to?
Should be...
4 pole, 6mph 45mOhms.
4 pole, 8mph 30 to 35 mOhms. I have seen both from sunrise.
2 pole are generally set to 65 ot 70.

Set too hih its very jumpy. Set too low its gutless, inadequate torque.
NOTE!!! this only works if you DISABLE the GYRO which is the cause of much of the woes. These settings do not work with the gyro. Make sure it says DISABLED!

i tried your settings
but it's too snappy
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Re: q700m very nervous is snapping

Postby q700m » 13 Aug 2022, 15:04

Image

what are these parameters for?
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Re: q700m very nervous is snapping

Postby q700m » 13 Aug 2022, 17:36

q700m wrote:I have infantile cerebral palsy, so I don't have a steady hand.
the joystick and wheelchair must be as little sensitive as possible otherwise the wheelchair jerks and goes left and right
can anything be done?
I am attaching my file

no help for me?
thank you
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Re: q700m very nervous is snapping

Postby Burgerman » 13 Aug 2022, 17:50

What does snappy mean?
Your settings file is undrivable.

Set all the forward and reverse accelerations to a low figure. So that you still have some sensible forward or reverse speeds but acceleration is low.
Set all the TURNING acceleration the opposite. Set these to maximum, 100. That means it will be fully proportional, but too fast to turn for you. So then set all the turn speeds to a low amount that you can cope with.

And reduce motor load compensation by 5 and not more from 40 to 35mOhm.

And then after all this has been tested until you can control it, then add tremor damping in stages of 10 until you can feel its being smoother (but slower to react.

After this then theres nothing else you can do. Thats as controllable as it gets. You MUST have the joystick positioned properly. And yu MUST have your hand sat on the base of the joystick to have a reference position or you are just fighting a losing battle. And will never have proper control. And maybe a longer joystick will help. Also you should have ordered 4 or 6 mh as these have better torque and control and are easier to drive with limited hand capability.
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Re: q700m very nervous is snapping

Postby q700m » 13 Aug 2022, 19:44

Burgerman wrote:What does snappy mean?
Your settings file is undrivable.

Set all the forward and reverse accelerations to a low figure. So that you still have some sensible forward or reverse speeds but acceleration is low.
Set all the TURNING acceleration the opposite. Set these to maximum, 100. That means it will be fully proportional, but too fast to turn for you. So then set all the turn speeds to a low amount that you can cope with.

And reduce motor load compensation by 5 and not more from 40 to 35mOhm.

And then after all this has been tested until you can control it, then add tremor damping in stages of 10 until you can feel its being smoother (but slower to react.

After this then theres nothing else you can do. Thats as controllable as it gets. You MUST have the joystick positioned properly. And yu MUST have your hand sat on the base of the joystick to have a reference position or you are just fighting a losing battle. And will never have proper control. And maybe a longer joystick will help. Also you should have ordered 4 or 6 mh as these have better torque and control and are easier to drive with limited hand capability.

why can I control the groove with 4-pole 8mhp motors well?
thank you
Attachments
originale q70m.R-net
(4.37 KiB) Downloaded 28 times
groove.R-net
(4.37 KiB) Downloaded 25 times
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Re: q700m very nervous is snapping

Postby q700m » 13 Aug 2022, 20:18

Burgerman
please look at the 2 files and see if there are any important differences
thank you
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Re: q700m very nervous is snapping

Postby Burgerman » 13 Aug 2022, 20:25

I will take a look later.
But the groove motors should not be any different as long as both are 8mph. CLONE your speed settings manually and they will respond in EXACTLY the same way.

But with your settings for the Groove motors it is completely impossible for anyone inc me to control them well. You might be able to make it go from one place to another. But its not possible to have any real semblence of control, in a proper proportional and linear way. Those settings are all delayed action, in what I call "pudding stirring" mode... Or hovercraft mode. No accuracy is possible set that way.

I couldnt hit the side of a barn set up like that, and neither could anyone else. But that may be the best that you can do with no proper hand control. And probably incorrect joystick position, and incorrect technique.

Photograph your hand and arm position when driving?
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Re: q700m very nervous is snapping

Postby Burgerman » 13 Aug 2022, 21:38

I looked. Theres no significant difference at all. Theres many small differences. Theres no way on earth anyone could drive either one in any safe or sensible fashion with those settings. The turn accelerations and turn decelerations are so low that the chair will have a mind of its own. Those 4 settings SHOULD be set to at least 70 in turn accel, minimum turn acceleration (100 is better). And 90 on turn deceleration, and minimum turn deceleration. And then redune the TURN SPEED if you cannot cope with the higher settings.

The only thing thta will help you here is setting motor compensation lower, by 5mOhms. Not more. Or it wont turn reliably or climb thresholds reliably. And add A LOT OF tremor damping to compensate for your hand issues.

So its a matter of:
1. Set all your TURN related accel, deceler to max. And leave them there. Theres 4 of these.
2. Set minimum turn to around 12, and max turn speed to a low speed that you can handle. Start at 12. And gradually increase.
3. TREMOR DAMPING add a lot!!!
4. Set forwards acceleration to a low figure like 25. And forward deceleration to the same. Set the min for accel, and min dec to the same.
5. Set motor compensation to 35mOhms.
6. MAKE SURE your hand cups the side of the joystick for reference/stability and only your thumb and forefinger controls the joystick.
7. Make sure your joystick is high enough, with a gap to the armrest, and far enough inboard so that your wrist naturally sits on it. And so that if close to a wall the ARMREST will touch first.

Failure to 6, and 7, means never having proper control And any movement of the chair moves your arm, and the joystick...

DO all of this list systematically will mean you can have accurate control. Failure to do any single thing here means you will never have proper control.
Let me know how this works.
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Re: q700m very nervous is snapping

Postby q700m » 13 Aug 2022, 22:53

Image

these are paramiters you say?
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Re: q700m very nervous is snapping

Postby Burgerman » 13 Aug 2022, 23:56

Yes but you still have not done as I suggested. That will not work.
And the other things, inc motor compensation, and the physical changes to joystick position, and to your hand position are all a part. Do only part of this, or dont change the settings as I suggested, and it will not work.

Set turn acceleration to 100
set turn deceleration to 100
set minimum turn acceleration to 100
set minimum turn deceleration to 100.
Now set the minimum and maximum turn speed to whatever you can manage. Super slow to start with.
But NON of this will work if you dont change the motor compensation to 35mOhm, and set tremor damping to say 100 to start with. REDUCE this if it causes too much delay. It averages your hand shakes over time to smooth the input.

And MOVE the joystick to a batter higher more inboard position so you can cup the joystick with your have. That matters or you cannot control anything. Because the chair moves, or accelerates, and josles your hand and so joystick moves. And the joystick moving moves the chair! Its a feedback loop. You must break that loop.

You must do ALL of these things together. Or you are wasting your time. On every profile.
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Re: q700m very nervous is snapping

Postby q700m » 14 Aug 2022, 01:29

Burgerman wrote:Yes but you still have not done as I suggested. That will not work.
And the other things, inc motor compensation, and the physical changes to joystick position, and to your hand position are all a part. Do only part of this, or dont change the settings as I suggested, and it will not work.

Set turn acceleration to 100
set turn deceleration to 100
set minimum turn acceleration to 100
set minimum turn deceleration to 100.
Now set the minimum and maximum turn speed to whatever you can manage. Super slow to start with.
But NON of this will work if you dont change the motor compensation to 35mOhm, and set tremor damping to say 100 to start with. REDUCE this if it causes too much delay. It averages your hand shakes over time to smooth the input.

And MOVE the joystick to a batter higher more inboard position so you can cup the joystick with your have. That matters or you cannot control anything. Because the chair moves, or accelerates, and josles your hand and so joystick moves. And the joystick moving moves the chair! Its a feedback loop. You must break that loop.
You must do ALL of these things together. Or you are wasting your time. On every profile.

wheelchair tamed 35 mohm
because what have I lost, power, torque or speed?
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