q700m very nervous is snapping

[biscuit]

Lower than what?
He already tried everything set to ZERO!

The issue is that everything that makes the chair turn, or go or stop, also makes it do all the same things when he doesent want it to. Because UNWANTED INPUT IN. So garbage in = garbage out. He appears to not have enough control in his hands, to make any meaningful difference between chaos and control. And its is all made worse with the hand/finger positioning. No reference point for his hand means that every time the chair moves, it causes his hand to move the stick in a way he didnt intend. So more unwanted input commands again. Thats why GOOD control positioning, and good technique is essential. To attempt to improve the signal to noise ratio. Until some attempt to deal with the root cause is made then its unlikely to get much better.

Hence the suggestion to try a different alternative input method/device.

I doubt it, I think worry about those accelerations has played into this a lot, and I have more faith in the steering ability of the unsteadiest hand than the steadiest head.

[biscuit]

the steering ability of the unsteadiest hand

Provided that the hand has a grip of the joystick pod and does not wave about in the air near the pod!

[Burgerman]

I put all the accelerations and decelerations of the turn to 100%,

Good.
Did you move the joystick so that you can have your hand sat on the SIDE of the control pod so that it cannot move around?
And only finger and thumb on the stick? Is that possible?
If not you are going to struggle.

the accelerations and decelerations in the forward must be put all the same,

Same as what?
They should be the whatever you can control. But figures that are super low mean that you are trying to compensate for bad hand positioning with no stability. And no they do not need to be the same. I have my forward acceleration set at 100. And forward Deceleration at 20.

Or do you mean the minimum? That should be the same as the maximum.
So if you set FORWARD ACCELERATION to 20, you should ideally set the MINIMUM FORWARD ACCELERATION TO 20. But 20 is so low that it wouldnt be possible to tell the difference if it was set differently anyway.

Do you still have your DEADBAND set to 50?
That removes almost all the proportional control. Turns the joystick into a "switch". Changing it from the default 10% to say 20% might help tremors. But 50 is far too high.

eg minimum and maximum acceleration and deceleration at 5% to avoid hiccups?

p.s. the only thing I control best is just my left arm and hand

5% is unbelievably low.
Do you have good HEAD / NECK control?
That might be a better solution.



youtu.be/ooZiA8VG5X4

[Burgerman]

This is better.
It uses full proportional control. And can use PROXIMITY sensors. No need to have to press a switch. So easier to drive/use.


youtu.be/oVKQmhC8eRs

[q700m]

I put all the accelerations and decelerations of the turn to 100%,

Good.
Did you move the joystick so that you can have your hand sat on the SIDE of the control pod so that it cannot move around?
And only finger and thumb on the stick? Is that possible?
If not you are going to struggle.

the accelerations and decelerations in the forward must be put all the same,

Same as what?
They should be the whatever you can control. But figures that are super low mean that you are trying to compensate for bad hand positioning with no stability. And no they do not need to be the same. I have my forward acceleration set at 100. And forward Deceleration at 20.

Or do you mean the minimum? That should be the same as the maximum.
So if you set FORWARD ACCELERATION to 20, you should ideally set the MINIMUM FORWARD ACCELERATION TO 20. But 20 is so low that it wouldnt be possible to tell the difference if it was set differently anyway.

Do you still have your DEADBAND set to 50?
That removes almost all the proportional control. Turns the joystick into a "switch". Changing it from the default 10% to say 20% might help tremors. But 50 is far too high.

eg minimum and maximum acceleration and deceleration at 5% to avoid hiccups?

p.s. the only thing I control best is just my left arm and hand

5% is unbelievably low.
Do you have good HEAD / NECK control?
That might be a better solution.



youtu.be/ooZiA8VG5X4

yes, the joystick is positioned correctly.
joystick between index and thumb or under the palm of the other hand I can't.

ok, forward accelerations and decelerations do not need to be the same.

for me the more it moves without intervening, the better.

what I control best is my left arm and hand.
feel or feet do not control them well.

[Burgerman]

What happens when you use the EXACT same settings as the chair that you say you can control?
Because that should then be EXACTLY the same.

[Burgerman]

Your answer will be a longer joystick. Less sensitive to small unintended movements. It decreases sensitivity. Still allows sensible speeds etc.

Look carefully.

https://www.mo-vis.com/products/wheelch ... y-joystick

This seems like the only way to have a lower noise, greater intended user input. It has a stronger centering spring. Increases the amount of "throw" by around double. Or more still with a longer lever.

[q700m]

Your answer will be a longer joystick. Less sensitive to small unintended movements. It decreases sensitivity. Still allows sensible speeds etc.

Look carefully.

https://www.mo-vis.com/products/wheelch ... y-joystick

This seems like the only way to have a lower noise, greater intended user input. It has a stronger centering spring. Increases the amount of "throw" by around double. Or more still with a longer lever.

this is a good idea, but is it hard to change it?

What happens when you use the EXACT same settings as the chair that you say you can control?
Because that should then be EXACTLY the same.

gets worse

[foghornleghorn]

Is the Groove rear wheel drive?

If you put the settings from a rear wheel drive chair on to a mid wheel drive chair it will end up twitchy as fuck.

[q700m]

Is the Groove rear wheel drive?

If you put the settings from a rear wheel drive chair on to a mid wheel drive chair it will end up twitchy as fuck.

yes, it's rear-wheel drive

[Burgerman]

Will it? Not in my experience. Very little difference. You may need a touch less torque setting. Thats about it.

If the front drive is set "more agressive" then its to overcome the turn in place issues caused by them being too nose heavy. The real solution to that is to move the CG back, or increase motor load compensation a fraction or both. All the turn and forward and back settings are and should remain identical.

this is a good idea, but is it hard to change it?

Thats irrelivant. If you cannot drive it as things are you dont have a choice. Is it hard? Well not for me. No idea if its hard for others, or your dealer. You can order that joystick direct from sunrise medical, at a silly price already converted. Whowever "fitted" you or prescribed your chair should already have done this.

[Burgerman]

With part number here for the LCD version.

[Burgerman]

Shirley. This is for you.
This is a standard fully functional R-Net joystick, no need to ne stuck on prehistoric dynamic systems.

[q700m]

if I put accelerations and decelerations of turning not at 100% but exempt at 30%, do I have to put them all at 30% or not?

[Burgerman]

You can set any of them to anything you want. But it will not turn when you tell it to. And it will keep turning long after you try to stop it turning. Even with all set to 70 I find it very hard to drive even close to accurately. The wheelchair responds long after you do.

[q700m]

You can set any of them to anything you want. But it will not turn when you tell it to. And it will keep turning long after you try to stop it turning. Even with all set to 70 I find it very hard to drive even close to accurately. The wheelchair responds long after you do.

I understand what you mean. but the turning accelerations and decelerations or at high values or at low values is it better to set them all on the same percentage?

[Burgerman]

Its better to set them all at 100.

You can set any of them to anything you want. But it will not turn when you tell it to. And it will keep turning long after you try to stop it turning. Even with all set to 70 I find it very hard to drive even close to accurately. The wheelchair responds long after you do.

If you wont do that then anything else you set is worse. And you can set them all the same, all different, whatevr YOU think feels better.

I set every single setting individually by testing. And set to what feels best, and gives the most intuitive, real time balanced, linear easy to drive control.

[shirley_hkg]

Shirley. This is for you.
This is a standard fully functional R-Net joystick, no need to ne stuck on prehistoric dynamic systems.

No. I want the pod at the forefront so that my last 3 fingers had a good grip on the shell as well.

[shirley_hkg]

if I put accelerations and decelerations of turning not at 100% but exempt at 30%, do I have to put them all at 30% or not?

Not necessary.

Try out acceleration @40%, deceleration @70% to see if it feel right to you .
Also reduce TORQUE , say to 45% , helps to make it run smoother.

[q700m]

from the R-net program on the pc you can understand if they have put the GYRO SYSTEM module on the wheelchair?

[Burgerman]

The 700 has one as standard. Please tell me you are not only now trying to find out!
Thats the reason that I explained that it MUST be turned off to use any of my settings. It makes everything jerky, and harder to steer.

Make SURE its disabled. As I suggested many days ago. Where you said no gyro...

Set to DISABLED here: You can do this by PROFILE. Set to NO.

When the Gyro is ENABLED it makes the Turn Accel, Dec, settings feel very harsh. And these have to be set lower. That means that it still has all the delayed action and terrible steering. So I turn up the turn Acel/dec to max. And gyro OFF. So it goes where its told WHEN I TELL IT.

[q700m]

[Burgerman]

Theres no magic combination os settings that will fix this. You are going to need a better quality of input from your joystick one way or another.

[q700m]

Theres no magic combination os settings that will fix this. You are going to need a better quality of input from your joystick one way or another.

however, the GYRO SISTEM is enabled on the groove

[Burgerman]

It doesent have a gyro though.

I tried setting up half a dozen chairs with a gyro enabled and they all behave like garbage. Why? Because the gyro makes the turn acceleration "feel" very sudden. Without actually making the turn acceleration any faster... So you are forced to setting that below 100, maybe to 50. And then it steers like a hovercraft. So GYRO = Garbage control.

Yes it auto corrects some straight line "drift". But so does a) motor load compensation if set correctly rather than the slightly "safe" stock settings. I tend to turn mine up a touch to make it work better than stock. And b) thats what the joystick is for. Just like a car YOU correct drift with the steering wheel...

So it is essential in a unstable front drive wheelchair and thats why they drive like crap. And cannot be fixed.
Its not required in mid, or rear drive chairs to go straight as they are naturally neutrally stable or actually positively stable.

UNLESS when using non proportional (switched) control systems like some head array or tube (suck blow) systems.
OR if you turn your joystick into a "switch" by having an enormous deadband (like 50%) which stops you steering it properly. And that would be stupid if you want any proper control.

Get a long joystick lever. And that really needs a heavy duty joystick as the mechanism isnt strong enough to resist all the leverage otherwise. But you could TRY IT temporarily by making yours longer. But it may then not have adequate self centering spring.

I KNOW that if you were here in my workshop, that I could make physical changes, and programming changes that WOULD allow you o drive reasonably accurately. But you just have to start at the begining. With some way of getting some proper INPUT from your hand. You are obviously incapable of operating a normal tiny joystick in any adequate way.

[biscuit]

Get a long joystick lever. And that really needs a heavy duty joystick as the mechanism isnt strong enough to resist all the leverage otherwise. But you could TRY IT temporarily by making yours longer. But it may then not have adequate self centering spring.

Some years ago I found a universal gear stick on Amazon, they fitted easily on the joystick stump, but in the end I never used it because I did not want to ruin the delicate internal parts of the joystick pod by pushing and pulling the long stick too hard.

[Burgerman]

Thats why they make the HD ones. So you can use long joysticks, they are capable of taking the greater forces a longer stick produces. And they expect this, with a stronger matching self centering spring.

Even the weight of your arm. A longer stick is not needed wth normal hand function as your fingers are capable of mm perfect accurate control. But if you cant do that, and its obvious that q700m cannot, you need some better means of input. A longer joystick means that the unwanted movement has much less efect. Only the wanted movements get ino the system. That meand you have to move your fingers or hand a greater distance for the same amount of response.

[biscuit]

if I put accelerations and decelerations of turning not at 100% but exempt at 30%, do I have to put them all at 30% or not?

Not necessary.

Try out acceleration @40%, deceleration @70% to see if it feel right to you .
Also reduce TORQUE , say to 45% , helps to make it run smoother.

Turning accelerations so low? Really, Shirley?

Surely the wheelchair obeys the joystick too gradually to be steered! Very near 100%, like 70%, at least some response is linked to the joystick input, instead of - apparently - at random.

[Burgerman]

It makes no sense to me. But he has low hand capability so probably cant tell the difference very well. Cant hit the side of a barn with all that delayed control myself. Never mind a doorway. Unless I slow right down and hold my mouth just right... And hope I dont need to make any last minute correctons!

Even then I have little confidence. It just isnt an accurate way to control a chair. You need AT LEAST 70 on turn acceleration, (and min) and 100 on turn deceleration and min.

100 and 100, and 100, and 100 makes it almost completely real time. So it turns when told, by the amount its told when its told. And even more importantly it STOPS turning when you say so. Rather than 2 seconds later after you hit a doorway...

[biscuit]

...That means you have to move your fingers or hand a greater distance for the same amount of response.

Yes I will now. Hope I have not missed the point too often on this thread. Big hand movements don't work for me, so I think everyone in the world is the same as me and they all need everything sensitive.