That time again

[wheelchairer]

Forget the above. I will just do a script with the nearest dealer.

Had a stand-up wheelchair for 28 wheel years out of the 38, so even though they can balk at the price, it's a part of my medical history.

[wheelchairer]

So how do you go about the negotiation part of the price they gave you. They just pointed to a chair, I think it was the J 500, and said this is the maximum price we can go up to. Is there some legislation that pushes them in a direction actually satisfying your needs?

[Burgerman]

So how do you go about the negotiation part of the price they gave you.

Me?

They just pointed to a chair, I think it was the J 500, and said this is the maximum price we can go up to. Is there some legislation that pushes them in a direction actually satisfying your needs?

Who is "they"?
Last I heard you didnt want to fill in a prescription form, based on your own needs and were going to get a random dealer to do it...

[wheelchairer]

So how do you go about the negotiation part of the price they gave you.

Me?

They just pointed to a chair, I think it was the J 500, and said this is the maximum price we can go up to. Is there some legislation that pushes them in a direction actually satisfying your needs?

Who is "they"?
Last I heard you didnt want to fill in a prescription form, based on your own needs and were going to get a random dealer to do it...

I filled all the paperwork in without the prescription. And they accepted what I wanted was necessary, but weren't prepared to pay for it.

I know they are going to say to me "that's all we are allowed to pay". So I just wondered how you got round this question.

[Burgerman]

I filled all the paperwork in without the prescription. And they accepted what I wanted was necessary, but weren't prepared to pay for it.

I know they are going to say to me "that's all we are allowed to pay". So I just wondered how you got round this question.

Who is "they"?

[wheelchairer]

I filled all the paperwork in without the prescription. And they accepted what I wanted was necessary, but weren't prepared to pay for it.

I know they are going to say to me "that's all we are allowed to pay". So I just wondered how you got round this question.

Who is "they"?

wheelchair services. The people at pay out the money for your chair.

[Burgerman]

You didnt do as I suggested.
You went to them, allowed them to lead you through their system by your nose, filled their forms, their advice.
You got the exact result I would have expected.
Thats theexact opposite of what I do.

Please read this thread from the start.

[wheelchairer]

I copied your letter exactly, except putting in my own details. I went through my need for every part as you did.

I pointed to exactly the chair that would satisfy my needs. Which was the one I pointed to you earlier. It turns out they don't do a wheelchair that I need with rear wheel drive.

So I'm going to need to go through the self funding route, and build something that is up to my needs.

They are going to say we can fund you but we have a limit which is number of pounds. They haven't specified what chair I have to do, but that they have a legal limit as to the amount they can spend. You seem to suggest you had a way of challenging this limit, I just wondered what argument you used for that.

[wheelchairer]

You didnt do as I suggested.
You went to them, allowed them to lead you through their system by your nose, filled their forms, their advice.
You got the exact result I would have expected.
Thats theexact opposite of what I do.

Please read this thread from the start.

what I you saying you apply without filling in any forms whatsoever? When they ask you to fill in a form, you refuse? How do you go about that?

[Burgerman]

It no longer gets tat fae.
The last time they gave me a form to fill in a few years ago 2008 I corrected every question and re-wrote the CORRECT question, explained why their question was wrong, and then answered the correct.

And as I already explained. I ask THEM the questions, and I already send them a very detailed SELF ASSESSEMENT. If they ask me to fill in a form I explain that their questions make no sense. I may answer 2 maybe 3 questions. At best. And cross out the rest.

You must understand that their assesement forms, are them assessing you. Their job is to lead you down the garden path to their cheapest "official" solution which in extreme cases is no powerchair (they ask the wrong questions be careful of answering THEIR questions!) at all. Or at best you get to shot ourself in the foot and they just base the "budget" on the chair they supply 99% of their clients. Which will be some barely motorised deck chair.

YOU ask them the questions, based on YOUR self assessement which describes why X chair with X features is what you need and why nothing else will be suitable. Then its up to them to explain why they will not pay for that. And your job is to ask them WHY? Put them on the back foot. Not you!

Their remit is to provide a suitable solution that fits your clinical and holistic requirements. If the best way to do so is a personal budget (into YOUR bank account) then you must make sure that you explain why that is. As a direct payment. Not a voucher, not a list of "approved" dealers, or approved chairs etc.

Then you push them.

Instead you let them lead you. And that is a set of forms and other things designed to make you follow their lead to their cheapest get out of jail card. They have rediculous questions in their for a reason.
________

Did do a self assessement of YOUR needs? Did this include a list of things that you cannot manage without? And explain why? Those are clinical needs. If they can identify a chair that fits these needs, they will take that (cheap unsuitable) chair, then give you about 2/3rds its real cost. If you have real world holistic needs they also must take this into acount too.

What they wont do is pay for lights,or anything that is faster than 4mph. Thats extra cost that you have to cover. One reason a budget rather than them supplying or a list of dealers/chairs is that you may want to pay more and get something thats faster. Or want to maintain and run your fleet, with this money. YOU must identify why, how, and your capability to do so.

DO not even think about allowing them to control anything!
Which chair did you identify, and breakdown the options on? And link and explain why for YOUR needs? Send me your self assessement.

[Burgerman]

This isnt a quick or easy process. Its YOU v THEM. Your job isnt to let them decide. Its to fight for your rights. Theirs is to reduce £££ and they are really good at that. By "guiding you" down their "system" route. Carefully designed to fob you off...

I have not actually sent my new self assessement/budget request in yet. Must do it this week! Then start calling them weekly to find out why they have not done anything yet.

[wheelchairer]

Thanks John. Yes this is what I needed.

YOU ask them the questions, based on YOUR self assessement which describes why X chair with X features is what you need and why nothing else will be suitable. Then its up to them to explain why they will not pay for that. And your job is to ask them WHY? Put them on the back foot. Not you!

Their remit is to provide a suitable solution that fits your clinical and holistic requirements. If the best way to do so is a personal budget (into YOUR bank account) then you must make sure that you explain why that is. As a direct payment. Not a voucher, not a list of "approved" dealers, or approved chairs etc.

"Direct payment
‒ This is where the budget holder holds the money in a bank account or an equivalent account and takes responsibility for arranging the care and support and supply of any equipment in line with the agreed personalised care and support plan.
Direct payments are not currently routinely available as an option for managing a
standalone personal wheelchair budget. NHS England and the Department of
Health and Social Care are currently reviewing existing regulations to establish
whether additional contributions are permissible under the National Health Service
(Direct Payments) Regulations 2013 (as amended).
Therefore where a direct payment is requested it would either need to meet the
whole cost of the wheelchair (which may be appropriate as part of an NHS CHC
package) or be part of an integrated package of care and clearly able to
demonstrate the health and wellbeing outcome which required a contribution via a
separately commissioned service"

https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/u ... udgets.pdf
page 11

My next job is to get in writing specifically what they have offered me, and why they haven't offered cushions, and a J3 backrest.

And then to point out that they have accepted my clinical need for a stand-up wheelchair £21,000.
That the stand-up wheelchair rearwheel drive is not available.
And so I will need "Personal Wheelchair Budget-Direct Payment". To make up my own wheelchair, like the ones I've already built.

[wheelchairer]

Their remit is to provide a suitable solution that fits your clinical and holistic requirements. If the best way to do so is a personal budget (into YOUR bank account) then you must make sure that you explain why that is. As a direct payment. Not a voucher, not a list of "approved" dealers, or approved chairs etc.

Then you push them.

excellent. Well put.

[Burgerman]

This stuff (dealing with stupid civil servants etc) and getting them to do things my way comes easy to me. Having run businesses and had to deal with customers, tax departments, banks, importers/exporters, suppliers etc. Its a thing you learn... It hardens you up. Never let anyone run things according to their "script"... I even refuse tht when calling my bank or whowever. They start on their script before you get chance to tell them why you called. So I refuse and ask them the questions.

You begin by giving them your script to follow based on their own remit, facts, etc and ignoring theirs. And discuss your own assessement. Which explains what chair, what funding model, and WHY.

Remember that behind every smile and form, and their "scripted behaviour" is their real intent. Which is to find reasons to either deny you a chair, deny you your wants and chosen options because they need to save £££ and supply you their regular cheapest possible solution that they understnd and get cheap.

They even come measure your house during their "assessement" (they couldnt assess a cheese sandwhich) in an attempt to say you dont have room, or nowhere to store itand 101 other related questions. Thats when I rewrote their questionair and corrected it with my own questions. They even ask you what you need it for! Where you intend to visit (freinds house?) and is that house adapted/ramp/wide enough doors. So they can say its for indoor only use. Etc etc. The "nice ladies" are not there for you. They are not your freinds. They are the opposition. They will tell you they cant afford, they cant do whatever you are asking for by letter and will likely not answer the phone or the person you want to speak to will be in a meeting, not there etc. Will call you back They will do anything to not pay up. And time is on their side.

On one occasion 20 years back, I had to buy the chair I needed, and send them the bill and threatened sue them for the money. I had to threaten them with newspapers and the local M.P. And only then did they give in. Dont expect to just fill in their forms! In 97 one of them was moved to a different department after having some kind of breakdown and refusal to come to work. Thats how I ended up starting this direct payments thing with all kinds of high ups including the gov health minister meeting at my house. Needless to say the WCS no longer argue. And accept my own assessement and offer me a 3 yearly figure. Because they dont want to go all through that again. I dontgive in, or take prisoners. That pilot scheme tat I started is SUPPOSED to be open to anyone now, that can show why they will be better off doing that. But its hard to change the establishment. They really dont want to do anything different. So they try to rename their old voucher scheme and tell you its a WCB.