5 button seat switch

[Burgerman]

Those without esp are programmed in exactly the same way as any other chair.

I never saw one without it. But I believe you. However these are all front drive chairs, and its all in their marketing. So they surely SHOULD all have it as stock? And if not what keeps them from fishtailing or spinning out etc? They must use something, its 2023! AES alone isnt adequate. Even with FWD mode turned up high. A stability module of some kind with acceleometers or gyro must be used?

[Burgerman]

You can order without. Its a zero cost default option with it. Why would you do that? Even if you just wanted to plug in a real one its for free! So Ebay it.

https://permobilwebcdn.azureedge.net/me ... 4-2023.pdf
https://permobilwebcdn.azureedge.net/me ... 4-2023.pdf

[Burgerman]

Next time I get chance I will unplug the permobil ESP thing and their software, and plug in a real (My) R-Net gyro. And see which does the best job. I suspect it will not be for a while. I only know one person with a permobil front drive now. And he isnt game to experiment. I suspect both will be equally bad. The real problem is the FWD . Not he gyro or drive algo. You cannot defeat physics. You can try and disguise it. But it makes it drive weird. Gyros, even on rear drive where its not needed, still makes it drive weird though. Better without. More feel/feedback and better control.

[johnbae1980]

permobil front drive chairs all have ESP as stock. but there's a stock setting file for no ESP also.
and other permobil chairs, like m3, m5. ESP is an option.

yeah. weird r-net programming way with ESP, I agreed
but no ESP permobil chairs are almost the same way as r-net programming.

and technically ESP is a gyro module and ICS is a seating module. Of course, they are not pure R-net.

[johnbae1980]

permobil front drive chairs all have ESP as stock. but there's a stock setting file for no ESP also.
and other permobil chairs, like m3, m5. ESP is an option.

yeah. weird r-net programming way with ESP, I agreed
but no ESP permobil chairs are almost the same way as r-net programming.

and technically ESP is a gyro module and ICS is a seating module. Of course, they are not pure R-net.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AkRkB_B6O4e3hPZ2zJs ... g?e=IahyGe

I shared permobil stock setting files as an example. ESP and no ESP on F3 chairs

yeah. there are files for F5 also

[Burgerman]

Wants me to sign in...

You can upload setting files here.

[johnbae1980]

Wants me to sign in...

You can upload setting files here.

oh sorry.

I uploaded the files again here.

[Burgerman]

Both however HAVE the ESP section. Even if it is mostly unused when their permobil module is missing. Only the latched drive options there. Why there? Thats to do with the firmware on a permobils power module. With non permobil modules that section is missing completely.

But yes, without the module (or if you were to plug it out, and throw away, then set up sane speed settings in the normal head section) then it reverts to the normal R net speed settings.

You will also see a LOT of walls set up in the OEM section. That most users without OEM access, cant remove and so even without gyro cant ever make the chair steer properly. At a minimum even without their gyro.

And again all the MINIMUMS on the chair with the gyro are set up as walls set to 100 that do not allow settings LOWER than this!

So you *need* Permobil OEM access on a permobil in order to configure anything with or without their gyro. And then theres the seating and switching etc... Permobilled all over again unfortunately.

[johnbae1980]

Both however HAVE the ESP section. Even if it is mostly unused when their permobil module is missing. Only the latched drive options there. Why there? Thats to do with the firmware on a permobils power module. With non permobil modules that section is missing completely.

But yes, without the module (or if you were to plug it out, and throw away, then set up sane speed settings in the normal head section) then it reverts to the normal R net speed settings.

You will also see a LOT of walls set up in the OEM section. That most users without OEM access, cant remove and so even without gyro cant ever make the chair steer properly. At a minimum even without their gyro.

And again all the MINIMUMS on the chair with the gyro are set up as walls set to 100 that do not allow settings LOWER than this!

So you *need* Permobil OEM access on a permobil in order to configure anything with or without their gyro. And then theres the seating and switching etc... Permobilled all over again unfortunately.

Yeah. I agree with you.
I don't like permobil's r-net configuration. their gyro and ICS.
especially when I do some programming for sitting and driving, it needed a dongle and ICS programming cable.
also needed 2 kinds of applications (r-net programmer and wheelchair builder)

but it can be programmed what I need or want. with a little frustrated and takes more time.

I hope that I can choose other brand rehab chairs someday in Korea.

[Burgerman]

What brands are available in korea? Considering how much stuff is made there I am surprised theres no korean chairs!

[johnbae1980]

What brands are available in korea? Considering how much stuff is made there I am surprised theres no korean chairs!

yeah. you can say that again.
there are a couple of Korean chairs. but no rehab features like reclining, tilting, seat lift. standing.
most of the chairs don't have rehab features. and most dealers are importing and selling cheap Chinese or Taiwanese chairs
few chairs have reclining and tilting but are very narrow-angle. (most 135 degrees reclining and 30 degrees tilting)

even so many Korean wheelchair users don't know about seat lift or standing feature.

brands? I just remembered, karma(taiwan), invacare, ottobock, permobil.

only permobil provides fully loaded chairs(available m1, m3, f5vs only)

the other brand's chairs can choose reclining and tilting(very limited angle). no seat lift and power legrest.

Invacare provides just one rear-wheel drive model(no rehab features).
Ottobock provides just two rear-wheel drive models - juvo b4 and b6- (no seat lift and just 135 degrees reclining and 30 degrees tilting)

the reality in Korea can be worse than those I know.

so I have imported twice used permobil m5 from the US for myself since 2019. permobil m3 is not good enough for me.

[Burgerman]

Then I would be tempted to turn the seat around, junk their gyro system, so you can program properly on an F5 with lithium. And see how that goes! A rear drive F5 without the peculiar permobil gyro/programming etc may be OK to drive. It will behave just like a normal R-Net setup.

But their seating system flexes all over too. I suppose if thats the only choice... And I dont like the idea of their 2 pole motors. Although they are lower impedance than most 2 poles are. But just 2 brushes with 120A going through them, is a bit too likely to wear/burn and die fas even if it doesent burn the commutator and it probably will. Its a bad idea. Even if their 2 poles are low impedance, its still unwise other than for cost reasons.

Never saw a F5 in biits. Not sure how feasible a rear drive version would be. But its only metal. If you have the will and the attitude its definitely possible!