Permobil M300 leg lift error

[xtal_01]

So, I just had a friend help me replace and reprogram the power module in my wife's wheelchair .. now back to the original problem.

Last August she went over a bump (though it may have just been a coincidence and shortly after the red light on the leg lift ICS began flashing. They still go up and down but there is no "stopping point" as there once was when they are in the right spot. It will not go through a calibration (just stops part way through).
The joystick is flashing ICS leg error 209A

The tech first tried a new actuator ... same problem. Then the factory said since it is an old chair, it must be the Advanced Seat Controller is not compatible ... so they replaced it ... still the same problem. Now they took out the new actuator and are sending it back for a replacement saying the new one must be defective.
Sounds to me like they are just grasping at straws.

Here is a picture showing the error:

[Burgerman]

Every time someone mentions permobil and errors, I run away. I do not know how to help. Their own techs dont ever seem to have a clue. What can you do? Nothing. Other than get to wait, while they swap parts in a blind guesswork game till it works.

This is all because of permobil using their own made seating module, the ICS and their own sensors/actuators which seems to be the source of every problem they have. Theres 3 different threads on here at the moment with ICS problems/errors.

Other brands use R-Net genuine seating modules, R-Net gyro, R-Net joysticks etc. Whch are cheap on eBay, and are all plug and play. And configurable with the R-Net programmer. Unlike permobil who frequently substiture these for their own branded ones. Esp the switches and ICS. That are a source of problems too frequently. Partly because WE cannot configure or understand them properly because the R-Net programmer doesent work for them. And they are all very firmware version sensitive too. So you need the right "versions" of the parts even to randomly swap out to test. And they will not sell you one aparently. And a dealer probably wont. If they do, its got the $phone number instead of the retail price.

So I would love to help. But really I cant. Other brands do not do this. At least in in the case of most other brands its possibly to buy generic r-net parts etc and program everything properly inc seating as well as see actual current in operation in the oem programmer for r-net.

The ERROR looks like an actuator, sensor, cable (power, bus, or sensor), or ICS error. Which I wouldnt know how to tell other than by substitution of all one at a time. But all must have correct fiirmware and programming (ICS) etc. Unless you have these correct parts all you can really do is wait for them to fix it. Since its a leg error, and it moves until it cannot identify position its logically a sensor problem, sensor connection issue or the ICS.

[xtal_01]

I have been on your site a few times ... super interesting!!!!!

I am a machinist by trade and build industrial control panels.

I am in the middle of building a new workshop but when done, a custom wheelchair build will be an interesting project.

My wife is a quadriplegic and needs care every 4 hours. I got an old RV when we met 13 years ago ...gutted it ... but my own lift (they wanted $25K when I only paid $18K for the RV) ... put a lift front to back and put in a hospital bed.

Then we needed an elevator ... $40K ... OUCH. I got an old electric forklift for $875 ... used the mast with some hydraulics ... she uses it everyday.

Mike

[Burgerman]

With your ability and mentality you would be better buying anything really that uses a pure R-Net system.

I bought 2 normal R-Net chairs. Sunrise in this case.
After looking around for a couple of years realised that this was now the only non locked down system, that we could get an OEM level programming capability for. Now the only game in town worth considering.

So I went on here, eBay etc and managed to buy THREE complete top of range genuine R-Net sunrise/generic parts to equip 3 complete power wheelchairs with tilt, lift, recline, lift, power legs etc. And full programming and configuration capabilit WHILE I CAN!

To do this with all R-Net parts is easy. You only need th following:
Two bus cables and a battery loom cable.
1. A joystick (any R-Net but not the cut down permobil one you show in your pics) I used the CJSM2 generic.
2. A 120A power module - any from any brand chair.
3. An R-net seating module ISM6L which is tiny and fully configurable with the generic or sunrise OEM software which we have available here... It is a fully programable 6 channel seating module and also lights. See images.

Thats it. And 3 complete systems, all eithr brand new, pulled from new chairs, or factory refurb brown box R-Net parts cost me around 1k for the lot. This includes an attendant joystik too.

See here.
Economic and the best and completey user configurable system for all. It may not stay this way as every manufacturer seems to be hell bent on stopping end users having the control they need. R-Net (minus the permobil parts like the joystick, switches, their own gyro and control algo, the ICS system is all designed to tie you to their apron strings and be reliant on them $$$$. Its not so much the money but the reliability issues, lack of user control, and the sheer time wasted while watching them as you say clutching at straws because they cant figure it all out etc.

If anything failes on my chairs it has to be one of the 3 things. The SEATING module. The JOYSTICK module. The POWER module. Or a bus cable, battery cable.
And I have 3 of each ready to swap out sat on my shelf cheap, and already programmed to go! Plug and play.

Read this thread carefully
https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/ ... 850dd07247

***********
This is a complete system, minus the battery loom. For 120A control, inc lift, tilt, recline, power legs inc length, and lights. Except that yu need 2 of the bus cables (on the right). I bought a box of them on eBay for £60 of every length imaginable. That entire photo cost me £320. And is everything.
This is all thats required. for say this chair. https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/ ... &mode=view Quite why a permobil looks like an explosion in a parts store baffles me. They just like to use their own non R-Net parts to tie you up.

[Burgerman]

Here is 5 joysticks, 2 shown, and another in the box.
Also an attendent one and an LED cheap one.
And 3 120A power modules.
And 3 seating/lighting modules.
And an OEM programmer, a bunch of battery and bus cables, and an IOM module so I can drive by Radio Control! And a few other bits.

This all cost me under £1500 including an expensive OEM level programmer. All as new or actually new/refurb brown box stuff. Cheap and just took some eBay time and 2 years of patience!!! Fishing and daft offers, and ebay germany, US, UK, etc. And on here, rover, and a few other places.

Patience is the key. When they appear cheap buy within minutes or they vanish without trace. They appear fleetingly and then gone!

[Burgerman]

More...
This is why I will never be tied to permobils complex firmware dependent ICS infrastructure. I cannot wait days to weeks while they try to fix it by trial and error or pay their prices.

So I stick to genuine R-Net plug and play easy to get cheap eBay parts. Its about control rather han dependency.

[xtal_01]

WOW ... thanks so very much for all the information !!!!!!!!

I was given a dealer dongle back when we got the chair.

A person in South Korea sent me the program and wrote the RNSS file for me to get my chair up and running.

Where did you get an OEM programmer and the software from?

I was told there are almost impossible to get.

This last issue with the controller was ridiculous. The tech(or their company) has not even put in for pre approval with insurance .... I already have the chair fixed. I don't know what they expected her to do without a chair !!!!!!!!!!

Thanks again .... Mike

[Burgerman]

I bought 2 over the years. One from PG direct. One from the powersoccershop in the US.

But you dont need one.
The dealer dongle you have can do all the same tricks. PM me.

However if your cHair has permobils own gyro, you wont make much sense out of it trying to get it to steer properly.
If you dont have one or unplug it then you can get it to perform normally. As for seating stuff you are still buggered as R-Net software cannot configure the ICS system. Which is all their seating stuff.

[Fusiongoat]

I bought 2 over the years. One from PG direct. One from the powersoccershop in the US.

But you dont need one.
The dealer dongle you have can do all the same tricks. PM me.

However if your cHair has permobils own gyro, you wont make much sense out of it trying to get it to steer properly.
If you dont have one or unplug it then you can get it to perform normally. As for seating stuff you are still buggered as R-Net software cannot configure the ICS system. Which is all their seating stuff.

Permobil MWD chairs don't have gyros unless one pays extra, which would be pointless.

[Burgerman]

Yes thats why I said IF.
You say that, but I looked at the programming for one a few years back and it had permobils version, using their drive algo/gyro implementation extension which means you cannot configure the drive settings in the usual place at the top of the programmer in the "speeds" section. Or in the OBP as this MUST be left alone. So at least some do have this gyro fitted. They call it another thing, which I forget, 3 letter acronym. I looked it up again. ESP. Theres so many of these extra acronyms on permobils that I get mixed up with. Is bad enough with the R-Net ones but at least theirs is called a gyro! If it is not installed, then yes OBP will work if enabled and the normal drive algo, and settings section at the top as per normal R-Net programming is used.

All the newer chairs that are front drive definitely have this thing fitted. It can be of some advantage on a mid drive too as they are not really a directionally stable platform but a neutral one. No natural directional stability. But not actually unstable either. Which makes directional stability more of a problem than on a rear drive platform that naturally wants to straighten out any direction change or turn.

Wonder why they have no rear drive (reversed seat M5, M3) option even in the rest of the world?