Tubular Tyres

[martin007]

Hi!

Suppose you use tubular tyres on your powerchair, wheelchair, etc
Suppose you find yourself in need of sticking a patch on the tire.
I already know that there is a leak-sealed liquid...

Do you use regular patch glue or a special glue?
Today I found out that there is a special glue to stick patches on tires.



P.S. Are "tyres" and "tires" correct terms?

[Burgerman]

Tubes in TYRES (tires if you are american and spell it wrong) are a huge issue.
Not the spelling, the tubes...

Glue? Is a rubber solution (with solvent). These stick but are always a weak point if you do it correctly. Best bet throw away the tube. New tubes are cheap. Have a few in stock, and have a bunch of spare new valve cores in stock too.

The puncture fix goo that you can add to a tyre to seal it in use, does not work well or for very long in a tube. With a tiny puncture like a thorn, it MIGHT work long enough to get you home and you will notice green gunk on the tyre or the floor as you roll.

SAME stuff, works absolutely garanteed and forever even with a 1/4 inch or 6mm hole in a tubeless tyre. (use tubeless tyres!!!)

Tubes are like balloons. A tiny pin prick and they tear, rip, or if not they expand around the hole and leak all the air rapidly whereas the same hole in a tubeless tyre wouldnt ever be noticed or leak at all. You need a much more severe puncture before a tubeless tyre will deflate.

So ALL my chairs but 1 have tubeless tyres, even the new Dietz is getting a tubeless rim/tyre very soon. Punctures are just not acceptable.

[martin007]

I live in a rural and agricultural area.
I have seen tubular tires repaired.
Repairs were made with patch glue.

A day ago I saw on sale a special glue to adhere patches to tubular tyres.
Is it a marketing strategy or can they have logic?

[Burgerman]

Who knows. Patches work. And sometimes they fail. So since tubes are cheap, easy to have a couple on the shelf so doesent seem wise to me.

[martin007]

I just got informed and...
...apparently that special glue is designed to be used with non (100%) rubber patches.

[jefferso]

I suppose every repair or replacement of a tube requires the chair to be lifted and/or wheel removed.

If you carry a spare tube, what's the minimum tools you'd need to have to replace a tube? My Permobil has a split rim.

Something to lift the chair
Spanner for nuts which hold the wheel on
Hex tool to separate two halves of wheel rim
Air pump to inflate the tyre

[Burgerman]

Yes. Except I just have a spare wheel and spare caster sat on the shelf ready to go.

And a flat tyre on a caster wheel doesent matter much till you get home so plenty of time later on.

[jefferso]

My Permobil F5 VS has tyres with tubes. My old C500 has solid tyres. The pneumatic tyres really make a difference in going over small kerbs and make for a smoother ride.

Could I put tubeless tyres on the Permobil F5? Would I need to get new rims and some kind of adapter?
It looks like the current split rim won't work with tubeless.

[shirley_hkg]

I'd say going tubeless is the second worthiest investment for wheelchair driver , next to lithium.

One tyre here costs £8, that last 5 yrs without a flat yet.

[Burgerman]

I have tubeless tyres on "almost" all of my chairs.

Why?
Solids of the 14 inch 3.00-8 type used on most chairs give a terrible ride. I am very sensitive to this due to it setting off muscle tension/spasm/pain.

Why not just stock 3.00-8 standard tyres with tubes?
Several reasons. I tubes suck. Like balloons, they deflate and leave me stuck. A thing a small as a thorn can do that. Because a tube is thin and like a stretched balloon a tiny hole opens up wider... Or tears. And you finish up with a tiny tear instead. Because its thin, the usual puncture seal does not work in most cases. Or works for a minute and then green crap everywhere...
Tubeless tyres are much thicker than a tube. The types that I use are semi slick, so the actual "thinner" areas where the tread pattern is are small. So that alone limits the chances of getting anything through the tyre.
And the sizes I use are commonly used on fast scooters and are substantially better made and have stiffer construction. So again less chance of a puncture.

Because the tyres I use are a little bigger (120mm wide typically, a fraction bigger diameter) they have a larger cross section and so contain a lot more air. That allows a lower pressure to support the same weight. Again this improves ride quality over the stock air filled tyres. Which is already better than the solids most use.

Since 1999 I have used tubeless. And thats 25 years without a flat tyre. When using tubes, I had to be rescued at least 3 times in the two years before I decided to fix the problem! Tubes and flimsy 3.00x8 chair tyres are crap!

I dont do tubeless caster tyres. because there are non suitable. But in any case I can drive on a flat caster tyre. I do use larger 3.00 x 4 tyres, thats 10 inches in diameter. Lots of cross section and a better ride at lower pressure than 8 inch or 9 inch ones.

[Burgerman]

Adapters...
I made all sorts of those!
Depending on what was required by each chair/wheel combination.

Heres 1

[Burgerman]

Others... Tubeless

[Burgerman]

Dont have to be fat!
3.50 X 8 TYRE ON tubeless rims, cheap steel ones.

Again much stronger than stock tyres.

[Burgerman]

Brushless motors. NOT tubeless. With tube.

[Burgerman]

Another adapter...

[martin007]

What tools do you use to place and remove the tubular tyres?
I think that tubular tyres cannot be used on removable rims.

Those adapters are made-to-order.
Have you welded them yourself?
Where do you buy the pieces?

[jefferso]

That's interesting. Doesn't look like a trivial task.

I don't know if I can use a wider tyre on the Permobil F5. Is 3.50 X 8 just half an inch wider?

The F5 has 3 bolts holding the wheel on. The C500 has 4 bolts.

So for the F5, I'd need to find a wheel, a 14" tubeless tyre for the wheel and get an adapter made?

Permobil's Service manual says not to re-use wheel bolts:

NOTICE
Replace used wheel bolt
If a wheel bolt is removed for tire service, replace it with a new, unused bolt
from Permobil and tighten it to the recommended torque. Also, inspect the
drive axle and wheel rim for any damage. Damage to either part can cause
the wheel bolt to loosen or fracture. Because the TUF-LOK thread lock fluid
wearsoff, Permobil recommends that wheelbolts only be used once.

[martin007]

Permobil recommends that wheelbolts only be used once.

Does Permobil also recommend that you buy the replacement wheelbolts from them?

If the wheelbolt is in good condition, I see no reason to replace it...

[jefferso]

Definitely! Buy from Permobil only:

B. Screw, ISO 4762 M8x20 8.8 Fe/Zn 5 C1/TUF-LOK DIN 267-28.
C. Washer, ISO 7089 8 200 HV Fe/Zn 5 C1 (8,4x16x1,6).

[jefferso]

I'd say going tubeless is the second worthiest investment for wheelchair driver , next to lithium.

One tyre here costs £8, that last 5 yrs without a flat yet.

That sounds great. Where did you get the wheels?

Are those 14 inch tyres?

[Burgerman]

Those are monkeybike wheels, aftermarket alloys. There are many variations.

They are 8 inch, cheap and well made. I have bought on ebay, aftermarket pit bike tuning part suppliers, etc.. And from shirley too. About £10 a wheel.

Available in various widths to suit your tyre size choice and usage. Mine are wide at 3.5 inches between beads. Your stock ones are under 2 inches, usually 1.7 inches...
A 3.50 X 8 TYRE is half an inch wider. But also an inch taller. So your chair will ride higher. Its also not going to work PROPERLY on a stock skinny rim as the tyre beads are pulled in deforming the wider tyre and making it skinnier and taller and the middle more pointy.

Yes you will nee an adapter or different hub. Dont worry about bolts!
I have used all kinds, several sizes.

Permobil want to sell you crazily overpriced bolts (and in fact they seem to try to make you buy and use permobil everything). The diferene between their bolts and the ones you buy elsewhere is ZERO.

Your wheelbolts are 8.8 grade (common) metric bolts. They are 20mm long standard M8 bolts.

I prefer stainless although weaker. It doesent corrode. Its also about 100x stronger than required anyway.
The permobil bolts say DONT REUSE because they supply ones with a dab of blue threadlock (loctite) already applied...
You can use them with or without threadlock, and 50 times if you want. But I do usually apply a dab of blue loctite on wheelbolts. No strictly required.

In any case if you fit aftermarket rims/tyres and your own hub you may want/need bigger or smaller or spacers, etc so you will be using different bolts anyway.

[Burgerman]

>>>What tools do you use to place and remove the tubular tyres?

The tyres are TUBE LESS no tubes. Thats the point. Tubeless tyres are MUCH more reliable that tube tye tyres.
How do I fit the tyres? I use a VICE to break the bead to remove them with hand held tyre levers.
I use soapy water and tyre levers to fit new tyre.
If feeling lazy I just take them to the tyre fitter that charges me £5 a tyre to swap them.

>>>I think that tubular tyres cannot be used on removable rims.

Not sure I know what you mean by tubular tyres.
These tyres can be used with or without a tube. You need a TUBELESS rim, to use a tubeless tyre without a tube. Which is the whole point!

Those adapters are made-to-order.
Have you welded them yourself?

They are STOCK hubs, unbolted from the motors.
With a metal ring I made on my lathe in my bedroom. I then drilled the holes and tapped them M8 for the wheel bolts.
Then I took them to the college up the road as they have a tig welder. And donated several tokens.
Then I sprayed them black and refitted them to the motors...

>>>Where do you buy the pieces?

I removed the hubs from the motors.
I made the rings with the threaded holes.

__________________________________________
Part 1
TAKEN FROM THE MOTOR!!!

Part 2
(4 of them here)
I MADE ON MY LATH From a metal bar.

Then, I had them tig welded together. For a £

[martin007]

Ok.

Any way to reliably tell if a rim is compatible with tubeless tyres?

[Burgerman]

Yes. A quick look tells you.

Tubeless rims have a "bump" or a ridge that the tyre jumps over when inflated. So that it doesent come off the rim or move from the edge when deflated.

And must be airtight and use a tubeless valve. And a TUBELESS tyre! Not all are.

Below is 2 different wheels for a land rover car.

One is tube type from many years ago.
The other is a modern one for tubeless tyres like alost all cars today.

[martin007]

All the rims I remember have a ridge...

[Burgerman]

Yes, because all TUBE LESS tyres need that.

Wheelchair rims do not have a ridge. And wheels are in 2 halfs nd not air tight. So a tube is needed. And tubes are terrible problematic things.

Tubeless tyres have a soft seal around the edges, and a strong construction. They are a tight fit and they need pressure to POP onto the rim.

WATCH this, you dont need to understand him. Just listen when the tyre is going on as he inflates it.


youtu.be/IX7DvJo7A8E

[Burgerman]

Duro kitaco tubeless 120/70 - 8 tyre, 3.5J x 8 rim, DIY adapter, Salsa chair.
https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/ ... 50#p206303

120(mm) wide, 70% profile, 8inch tyre.
14.6 inch diameter
4.70 inch wide
3.3 inch tall (sidewall)
ideal rim needed 8inch X 3.5J as used and (3.25 to 4.25 can work)

[Raro]

Will tubeless tires in size 3.00-8 be suitable for that sheet metal rim? I don't see many in that size

[Burgerman]

Not sure I saw a tubeless 3.00 x 8 tyre.

If they exist they will work on any tubeless rim that is 8 inch, x 1.75 wide like a stock mobility rim, up to a 2.5 inch wide rim.

Which rim were you talking about?
The one above is a cast alloy rim, electroplated.

Heres the thing. If going to the trouble of making an adapter or new hub in order to fit a tubeless rim, why fit the stock small cross section 3.00 tyre?

[Raro]

Dont have to be fat!
3.50 X 8 TYRE ON tubeless rims, cheap steel ones.

Again much stronger than stock tyres.

I was referring to the ones mentioned in that message, I only looked for that size when I saw this post, the reason for using one in that size would be to get the most compact size that would offer the lowest seat height even if the difference is small. I'm not looking to do it, it's just a thought.