PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby Burgerman » 24 Nov 2021, 21:39

So does oil.
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby ex-Gooserider » 04 Dec 2021, 05:50

Arima wrote:I think this is the first time I've seen mention of a valve. One end of the cell looks like it has vent holes...so that might be the one. 10mm bolts look like they should be fine. Great idea about making a tap! Put a little oil on it and worked a bolt in going back and forth without any trouble. Dirty connections cause more resistance correct?


As BM said, so does oil, though it's probably less bad than dirt. I would flush them w/ contact cleaner or similar (alcohol, acetone?) before assembly. That said, bare stainless will have a tendency to 'gall' and cause it's own problems so I'd be inclined to use lock-tite or similar to avoid that.

I know I've seen multiple mentions of the valves in the headway cells, and you are probably right about them being on the end w/ the holes. I am pretty sure I saw it on the actual Headway manufacturer site, and also in the documentation I got with the batteries and also downloaded from Headway...

At any rate, overly long bolts are going to be problematic - either they will bottom out before properly making contact with the wiring hardware, or they will punch through the bottom and damage the battery internals...
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby Arima » 09 Dec 2021, 04:15

Finally received the 40mm assembly blocks. Think I'm giving up on finding a plastic box to hold everything. What do you guys think of a couple baking pans with the cells in between sandwiched together? Add some wood runners the full length around the perimeter for support. Bolt around the perimeter thru the wood and the pans. When using it on a powerchair it would go between the set pan and the butt cushion. The pan in the photo is obviously not big enough for 8 cells layed out like hot dogs on the grill. It's all I had in the stove. Maybe add a rope handle to make it easy to handle as an 24v add-on pack.

Only 2 of the cells have the corrosion problem from the previous post...good thing I ordered 10. Not sure what I would ever do with the 2 extras?
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby Burgerman » 09 Dec 2021, 09:57

Whatever works for you. But its not very elegant. Maybe a bag of somekind would be better. Personally I think they belong where the lead is now.
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby Arima » 11 Dec 2021, 23:00

I'm wondering what is going to work for me. You're right they belong under the seat pan. With a bag don't you worry about the cells getting banged around? Let's get it working first then worry about aesthetics. Besides I look more like a circus bear than a ballerina! Think I got my first 12v battery together.
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby shirley_hkg » 12 Dec 2021, 14:41


Other than as an add-on to your chair , it is very good to power hoist/lift . It can do months, without recharged . cheers
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby Arima » 12 Dec 2021, 22:47

shirley_hkg wrote:Other than as an add-on to your chair , it is very good to power hoist/lift . It can do months, without recharged . cheers

We should have a good way to control the voltage output for that type of application I'm guessing? Or only limit the use to 12v appliances.
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby fishinjunky » 15 Dec 2021, 17:25

]are these cable sizes sufficient for a 8s x 230ah pack?

6awg or 8awg for connecting the cells instead of using bus bars?

10awg for charging cable?.

10awg for cable going from battery pack to power module?

Also do I need to make sure to get cast extra thick wall terminals (not copper)?

And would it be beneficial to include a cell monitor in the build. I would like to be able to get an idea of battery level while out riding just for peace of mind. What would be my best option for doing that?

thank you guys so much for your help I want to make sure I get it right
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby Burgerman » 15 Dec 2021, 20:03

I use 10 sq mm.
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby fishinjunky » 15 Dec 2021, 20:54

Burgerman wrote:I use 10 sq mm.


Thanks bm that's what I'm going to use for the bus cables, power cable, and charging cable.

I'm having trouble finding good cast thick wall ring terminals and thick walled sb50 terminals in the U.S that's not copper.

I'm not sure about the cell monitor maybe just a volt reader
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby fishinjunky » 16 Dec 2021, 02:54

Is their anyway to view bm pl8 presets for a 8s 230ah pack and settings like the termination voltage for example. I would like to be able to use those presets an settings as a reference when setting up a lithium profile on the iCharger 4010 duo when I get it?

I was also wondering about discharging should I get a resistor bank for discharging using the iChargers 2nd channel or will the iCharger be able to discharge by its self?
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby Burgerman » 16 Dec 2021, 17:11

Is their anyway to view bm pl8 presets for a 8s 230ah pack and settings like the termination voltage for example. I would like to be able to use those presets an settings as a reference when setting up a lithium profile on the iCharger 4010 duo when I get it?

No. Set initially to:
charge at your chosen amps, to 3.600v per cell. Set it to terminate after 4 hours CV provided it is balanced. Set it to terminate at 1/320th to 1/500th is its capacity in Ah. Whichever occurs first.

With the PL8 you would set everything to manual and choose those settings and it all works independently so easy. With the iChargers the termination current (NOT VOLTAGE) is set as a proportion of charge voltage. So that complicates things. If yu set 25A charge then you set say 1% OF THAT AS THE TERMINATION CURRENT. This means your termination point would be a 1% of 25A. Or 250mA. So you would need to consider the charge current as well as how many mA that 1 or 2 or 3 percent is. And time you set seperately.

I was also wondering about discharging should I get a resistor bank for discharging using the iChargers 2nd channel or will the iCharger be able to discharge by its self?

The icharger can discharge by itself slowly.
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby fishinjunky » 16 Dec 2021, 18:39

Burgerman wrote:
Is their anyway to view bm pl8 presets for a 8s 230ah pack and settings like the termination voltage for example. I would like to be able to use those presets an settings as a reference when setting up a lithium profile on the iCharger 4010 duo when I get it?

No. Set initially to:
charge at your chosen amps, to 3.600v per cell. Set it to terminate after 4 hours CV provided it is balanced. Set it to terminate at 1/320th to 1/500th is its capacity in Ah. Whichever occurs first.

With the PL8 you would set everything to manual and choose those settings and it all works independently so easy. With the iChargers the termination current (NOT VOLTAGE) is set as a proportion of charge voltage. So that complicates things. If yu set 25A charge then you set say 1% OF THAT AS THE TERMINATION CURRENT. This means your termination point would be a 1% of 25A. Or 250mA. So you would need to consider the charge current as well as how many mA that 1 or 2 or 3 percent is. And time you set seperately.

I was also wondering about discharging should I get a resistor bank for discharging using the iChargers 2nd channel or will the iCharger be able to discharge by its self?

The icharger can discharge by itself slowly.


Thanks BM just to make sure I have this right. Let's say I'm charging at 40amp 1% of that would be 400mA and 400mA would be what I set as the termination point. Then set the time separately.

Thanks for the settings I just printed this page to have in my research file for referencing on hand.

I may get a resistor bank to speed up discharging. Or is it best to discharge slowly. I would like to be able to discharge a small amount after charging so not completely full. I would probably only need to discharge farther in the winter when not using my outdoor chair
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby Burgerman » 16 Dec 2021, 18:43

You can discharge at any speed you wish up to around 1C before the battery or cell cares.
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby fishinjunky » 17 Dec 2021, 03:46

Are anderson sb50 connectors sufficient for connecting lithium
pack to power module. And for connecting the pack to a charger for charging at up to 70amps. I have a 120amp joystick planning 200ah or 230ah pack.
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby swalker » 17 Dec 2021, 05:17

fishinjunky wrote:]are these cable sizes sufficient for a 8s x 230ah pack?

For my 176 Ah pack (8 cells in series), I used the following. I would do the same for a 230 Ah pack.

fishinjunky wrote:6awg or 8awg for connecting the cells instead of using bus bars?

I computed 10 sq mm was the conservative size, which equates to 7 AWG. Since neither 10 sq mm nor 7 AWG was readily available in the US, I went with 6 AWG. It worked great. In my opinion, bus bars are too rigid and may cause the connections to the cells to loosen up over time. I made sure the cable I used for inter battery connections were flexible and I used relatively long runs (see the yellow cables in the attached picture).
20190330_214946.jpg


fishinjunky wrote:10awg for charging cable?.

I used 10 AWG

fishinjunky wrote:10awg for cable going from battery pack to power module?

I used 10 AWG

fishinjunky wrote:Also do I need to make sure to get cast extra thick wall terminals (not copper)?

I favor high quality, tinned copper terminals. For the larger size, I used Selterm marine grade terminals. For smaller sizes, I used Ancor marine grade terminals. All were tinned copper and heavy enough to use with appropriate crimping tools for crimped connections.

fishinjunky wrote:And would it be beneficial to include a cell monitor in the build. I would like to be able to get an idea of battery level while out riding just for peace of mind. What would be my best option for doing that?

I added a cell meter to my setup and found it pretty useful, especially as I was new to using the LiFePO4 battery pack. I use it less now, but still use it enough that it goes with me on every ride. Here is the one I used: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B073W ... UTF8&psc=1

Steve
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby fishinjunky » 17 Dec 2021, 13:13

swalker wrote:
fishinjunky wrote:]are these cable sizes sufficient for a 8s x 230ah pack?

For my 176 Ah pack (8 cells in series), I used the following. I would do the same for a 230 Ah pack.

fishinjunky wrote:6awg or 8awg for connecting the cells instead of using bus bars?

I computed 10 sq mm was the conservative size, which equates to 7 AWG. Since neither 10 sq mm nor 7 AWG was readily available in the US, I went with 6 AWG. It worked great. In my opinion, bus bars are too rigid and may cause the connections to the cells to loosen up over time. I made sure the cable I used for inter battery connections were flexible and I used relatively long runs (see the yellow cables in the attached picture).
20190330_214946.jpg


fishinjunky wrote:10awg for charging cable?.

I used 10 AWG

fishinjunky wrote:10awg for cable going from battery pack to power module?

I used 10 AWG

fishinjunky wrote:Also do I need to make sure to get cast extra thick wall terminals (not copper)?

I favor high quality, tinned copper terminals. For the larger size, I used Selterm marine grade terminals. For smaller sizes, I used Ancor marine grade terminals. All were tinned copper and heavy enough to use with appropriate crimping tools for crimped connections.

fishinjunky wrote:And would it be beneficial to include a cell monitor in the build. I would like to be able to get an idea of battery level while out riding just for peace of mind. What would be my best option for doing that?

I added a cell meter to my setup and found it pretty useful, especially as I was new to using the LiFePO4 battery pack. I use it less now, but still use it enough that it goes with me on every ride. Here is the one I used: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B073W ... UTF8&psc=1

Steve


thanks im going to include a cell monitor also. Yep im using marine grade for everything.
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby fishinjunky » 17 Dec 2021, 14:40

looking for a 8s balance lead wiring diagram for 8s in a series?
i want to make sure i get it right
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby Burgerman » 17 Dec 2021, 14:53

.
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby fishinjunky » 17 Dec 2021, 15:23

Burgerman wrote:.


thanks bm. will cell 1 be the lead next to the ground and cell 8 the red lead ?
sry for all the question but i guess better to ask now then to be sry later for mistakes. Getting excited i love doing this stuff i just wish i could move my hand an fingers i miss doing this stuff. i worked all the way through high school at a electronics store installing car stereo systems. Cant wait for a range anxiety free ride
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby Burgerman » 17 Dec 2021, 16:08

Yes.
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby fishinjunky » 17 Dec 2021, 18:44

Will the charging port on the joystick still work for plugging in my USB adapter for my phone after I put in the lithium pack?
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby Burgerman » 17 Dec 2021, 19:34

Yes. Both similar voltages or the chair wouldnt still work and you would see smoke...
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby fishinjunky » 18 Dec 2021, 17:47

swalker wrote:
fishinjunky wrote:]are these cable sizes sufficient for a 8s x 230ah pack?

For my 176 Ah pack (8 cells in series), I used the following. I would do the same for a 230 Ah pack.

fishinjunky wrote:6awg or 8awg for connecting the cells instead of using bus bars?

I computed 10 sq mm was the conservative size, which equates to 7 AWG. Since neither 10 sq mm nor 7 AWG was readily available in the US, I went with 6 AWG. It worked great. In my opinion, bus bars are too rigid and may cause the connections to the cells to loosen up over time. I made sure the cable I used for inter battery connections were flexible and I used relatively long runs (see the yellow cables in the attached picture).
20190330_214946.jpg


fishinjunky wrote:10awg for charging cable?.

I used 10 AWG

fishinjunky wrote:10awg for cable going from battery pack to power module?

I used 10 AWG

fishinjunky wrote:Also do I need to make sure to get cast extra thick wall terminals (not copper)?

I favor high quality, tinned copper terminals. For the larger size, I used Selterm marine grade terminals. For smaller sizes, I used Ancor marine grade terminals. All were tinned copper and heavy enough to use with appropriate crimping tools for crimped connections.

fishinjunky wrote:And would it be beneficial to include a cell monitor in the build. I would like to be able to get an idea of battery level while out riding just for peace of mind. What would be my best option for doing that?

I added a cell meter to my setup and found it pretty useful, especially as I was new to using the LiFePO4 battery pack. I use it less now, but still use it enough that it goes with me on every ride. Here is the one I used: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B073W ... UTF8&psc=1

Steve


How were you able to calculate battery level using the cell monitor volts?

I would like to know a way to get a rough idea on hand.

But I'll also log my milage an log how much ah goes back in after charging. I'll log all terrains and hills to get an idea over time of battery usage per mile on hills, flat,, or rough terrain each would be different
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby LROBBINS » 18 Dec 2021, 19:01

I am surprised that no one has commented on your choosing AWG10 for the battery to PM connection. That's too small. Most of us in Europe are using 10mm^2 for that, but the AWG7 equivalent is not to be found. You can go to AWG6, which is fatter than needed, if you can't find 10mm^2 or AWG7.
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby fishinjunky » 18 Dec 2021, 19:06

LROBBINS wrote:I am surprised that no one has commented on your choosing AWG10 for the battery to PM connection. That's too small. Most of us in Europe are using 10mm^2 for that, but the AWG7 equivalent is not to be found. You can go to AWG6, which is fatter than needed, if you can't find 10mm^2 or AWG7.


Thanks I'll do 6awg for battery to pm connection and for connecting the two 12v (4 cells ech) packs
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby swalker » 18 Dec 2021, 19:37

fishinjunky wrote:How were you able to calculate battery level using the cell monitor volts?

I would like to know a way to get a rough idea on hand.

But I'll also log my milage an log how much ah goes back in after charging. I'll log all terrains and hills to get an idea over time of battery usage per mile on hills, flat,, or rough terrain each would be different


The cell meter I use can give the voltage for each cell in the pack, the voltage of the pack, the voltage of the high cell and the voltage of the low cell.

It is imperfect, for a variety of reasons, but it gives me an indication of the health of the pack and the overall charge state while I am out on a ride.

The voltage curve for LiFePO4 cells as they discharge is pretty flat, until they are almost depleted. I try to make sure I can get home before any cell drops below 3 volts. Once below 3, the voltages drop QUICKLY. I rely much more on mileage than I do voltage. But, with the cell meter on hand, I can be assured I am not dropping cell voltage enough to be harmful to the cells.

With LiFePO4 cells, my wheelchair's range is greater than my body can tolerate in a day. There is not much danger of me running out of juice. But, I did not know this when I first built the pack.

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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby fishinjunky » 18 Dec 2021, 22:21

Can I connect the balance cables to the positive terminals. Or do I have to connect them to the bus cables like this diagram shows
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby Burgerman » 18 Dec 2021, 22:50

You connect to each cell. Or its joiner.
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby expresso » 18 Dec 2021, 22:53

too bad we dont use the buss bars -

these are the bars i am getting with my new order - has a screw for the balance wire on the buss bar - nice touch - will save them -

i may have found a winner with this new seller - waiting on delivery -


laser welded studs - no more stripped posts - i will never buy another cell thats not already with welded studs on top - and nice flat contact surface below :thumbup:
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