First project chair

[playafly187]

This is the S-646-SE I recently purchased on eBay (pic from the eBay seller). It is scheduled to arrive tomorrow, yay! I called Sunrise with the S/N and was told the chair was manufactured in 2003. I suppose that's pretty old but for the price, I think I did well. Observations and questions thus far:

1. The base appears to be in pretty good condition. Aside from silver, this blue is probably my second favorite color. I'll remove all the badges once it arrives and give it a good cleaning, go over it to touch up any dings in the wheel hardware with black paint, etc.

2. From what I can tell, the "seat" section isn't original to the chair (if I'm not mistaken, the lower seat frame should match the base in color, as should the leg rests).

3. The chair has a tilt function but it looks far different than what's on my current S-636.

4. I see a pair of hinge pins dangling from the back of the chair. Any idea what those are used for?

5. The chair has an attendant system on the rear. I plan to remove this as I have no need for it / would save a little extra weight. The leg rests will also come off as they get in my way (pulling up to counters, etc.).

6. The front casters have the built-in suspension. Does anyone have experience with these? My S-636 has solid casters. Do they provide a smoother ride? Affect high-speed handling negatively / positively?

7. I have a very old S-525 in storage. If the seating on the S646-SE doesn't work for me, do you think I could take the seating from the S-525 and use it on the "new" chair?

Once I've given the chair a solid one-over, get batteries and get ahold of a programmer to reprogram it (I'm not sure where to turn to find the correct programmer), I'm not really sure what my next "step" would be. Any modification recommendations? Thanks!

[Burgerman]

6. The front casters have the built-in suspension. Does anyone have experience with these? My S-636 has solid casters. Do they provide a smoother ride? Affect high-speed handling negatively / positively?

The Groove (also sunrise / quickie) comes with either the same casters you have and same 8 inch wheels, or solid casters without suspension. And 300 x 4 (9.7 inch) tyres. I tried both. The fatter tyres at 300 x 4 are better for soft ground, snow, etc but are more likely to shake at speed if anything is set up wrong. Ride wise there's little difference. As the sprung casters make up for the narrower harder tyres. But that gives you a lot of options. The sprung ones though are very fat at the top and seem to hit everything you get close to.

Central footplate cures the swing away width issue.

Woodys cable will allow programming of its PG controller...

[Burgerman]

https://www.quickie-wheelchairs.com/pro ... -2976.html

Options list...

http://www.sunrisemedical.com/getattach ... anual.aspx

Owners manual

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzGPaxVCU0Q

Utube vid. All these have fast turn rate, and masses of turn acc delay so they need reprogramming to get good control. The other thing they have is really s l o w actuators like most chairs. So actually using the tilt etc is OK as long as you book it all well in advance!

[playafly187]

The chair arrived earlier today. So begins the cleaning process heh. I'm hoping to swap my batteries over later tonight and give it a trial run.

[snaker]

@playafly187: Can you tell me the ebay price of this Quickie 646SE? As I know the 646SE model was just released at around 2010, wasn't it? I wonder why Quickie told it had been manufactured at 2003?

@Burgerman: Do you know the power (watts) of 646SE 8.5mph motors? I know the watts may have not much meaning but I guess the faster motors should have greater watts than the slower ones. I see a powerchair model in my country claims a fast speed of 15kph but its motors power is only 450W. Can we conclude that they lied about the fast speed?

[Burgerman]

Watts and speed dont always corrolate.

Mostly the 8.5mph motors have the same motors as the HD 5 or 6mph motors. And less torque proportionally due to different gearing.

And its entirely possible for a efficient 400 watt motor to be more powerful than a 600 watt motor. It depends how efficient it is and how fast it can get rid of heat. For eg just fitting a heat sink, or a fan, would instantly increase the motor watts... Without any other change. And a lower impedance motor will make more power (draw more amps) even if it is a much lower watts rating. It relates only to its rated continuous input level before damage through heat. So I woudnt worry about that motor watts figure.

15kph however is probably incorrect. The fastest sunrise quickie chairs are usually 8.5mph (13.6kph) or 8mph (13kph). Although there were one or two 9mph ones for a while.

Most faster chairs have 100A or bigger controllers. 24v means that under hard acceleration / hill for eg the motor will actually be recieving up to 100A x 24V = 2400Watts per motor peak.

[playafly187]

I swapped over the MK gel batteries from my S-636 into the S-646-SE to give it a try. It's certainly faster as it should be although the right motor might be on the way out, it has a bit of a whine to it (I'm fine with that given the price). I'm hoping to find a used replacement for cheap. I was surprised at how "tuned" it already is but it'll definitely need some more work to get it how I want (more acceleration, less immediate stopping when letting go of the stick, etc). The MK batteries are just crap, I see the joystick LEDs dim almost fully when launching from a stop. I have a pair of Optima Blue top batteries coming in a week or so (nice discount on those so I opted to go for it). Should save a little extra weight as well.



One thing I certainly don't like is the joystick. Whoever thought it was a good idea to put the on/off toggle switch directly below the joystick was an idiot. Twice during the test run, the palm of my hand bumped it which locked up the tires as it turned off. Not cool. The seat also isn't to my liking but that's an easy fix.

Question - is this the only controller I can use with this chair? I'd much rather use the one from my S-636-SE (it's a VG2, I think is what it's called).

[Burgerman]

I have a pair of Optima Blue top batteries coming in a week or so (nice discount on those so I opted to go for it). Should save a little extra weight as well.

Compared to a new set of MK or Odyssey you wont get much range out of those. Esp with a faster chair.

8mph? Sucks more amps from the batteries by about 25 to 30 percent, at every movement no matter how small or slow. You need good batteries in faster chairs. And the D34 Odyssey is only 55Ah. Same as a smaller 22nf. And so will soon suffer.

Swap control SYSTEM complete. Yes. Or get a pilot plus pod.



As for only an idiot... Heres a copy and past from a poster on the junkie site (made me laugh anyway!):

post 1

I got my chair back. My Q6000z out performs any quickey. My chair is pretty awesome. I'll keep her for a good long time.

post 2 - almost straight afterwards...

They put in motors that are not equal. I can't drive it. I went off a curb and into traffic. Almost got hit by a car. The chair does not drive straight or stop straight. One motor is stronger than the other, I can't maneuver it. The controls are all over the place. It is not programmed right. Two different motor strengths. I can't use it. I will use the quickey. It just doesn't drive right!

http://www.wheelchairjunkie.com/forums/ ... #Post69896


Oh how I would hate to be ignorant of the very thing that is my essential to my life, my "legs". And have to rely on others as this poster obviously does. This sort of thing is exactly what I would expect to happen. I don't have a lot of confidence in the experts. Seen this sort of thing far too many times. They must choose staff according to lack of ability. I think you will find idiots are quite common. Which is why this site exists. Knowledge is power.

[playafly187]

The last three sets of batteries I've had for my S-636 have been from MK (gels) and all of them have been terrible. I don't think I could be convinced to go with them again. I had the most recent set replaced as I thought they were defective. Nope, all three sets I've tried are just crummy. Maybe a bad batch, who knows. Like you mentioned, they're fine for most users but for those wanting a faster programmed chair, they lack the "punch" needed for solid acceleration. I'm not too concerned about range as I don't drive the chair around town, etc. I partially went with the Optimas due to advice here ( http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/my-batteries.htm ) unless it's dated info now?

[Burgerman]

You really need either lithium and a Cellpro PL8 40A super accurate hobby charger.

Or Odyssey PC1500 and a GOOD charger that suits those or again the PL8 hobby charger.

Did it occur to you that the MK is a good battery. But soon destroyed if both charged at too high Voltage. And undercharged daily at the same time? That's what mobility chargers do. Especially in the US where it seems that 3 stage CC/CV/Float chargers are a relatively new thing.

If an MK isn't charged for about 16 hours continuously at least once a week, it will be Sulfated after a month.
And if it is charged at too high voltage as almost every 14.4V mobility charger will do, then it will be suffering voids and shrinkage in the gel. Both of which increase internal resistance and reduce high power capability. If charged correctly at 14.1V per battery, and for a long time till current falls to an extremely low level, they work great for a long time.

[Sully]

Regarding Mary or Windjammer as she is called. She is a single oldish lady (age N/A) with almost no mechanical abilities. I believe she is on Medicaid, which means the govt. Insurance is very stingy with all those recipients/clients. I have swapped 1170 motors also called E-675-RH/LH - 2 pole large motors, and even reversed their direction of rotation, to suit the recipient chair, and had success doing it.

I think the combination they used were not equal or they replaced one motor only and matched the motors but not the gear box attached to it. Some of these things confuse her, I know she would like to take an active part in getting her repairs done, but she has very little to no experience, with electrical/mechanical stuff. I do think there is a sensible answer for her problem.

She very much depends on Mark and his advice on just about everything. Now it "sounds" like she has jump ship from Pride to another manufacturer for her Chair. I think she will be disappointed in any further practical advice on Mark's part.

[Burgerman]

Well its all unfortunate. But that whole thread is what baffles me about the way all the US chair users seem to be completely dependent on 101 different insurers, rule, presctriptions, providers, techs, doctors, paperwork rules, classes, timelines, seating specialists, and more. And it all seems so impossibly complicated, and so hard to understand how and who will fund what and why they will. And so slow and dependent on others that it generally all ends in disaster one way or another. Surely theres some single point of contact, that is responsible to sort it all out?


And other than you and a few others nobody seems remotely interested in doing anything for themselves either. All seem to be pefectly happy to use whatever they are allocated. Mary seems unbelievably confused about the system, the chairs and everything else. But this all seems pretty common over there on the junkie site and maybe in the US generally?

Likely they have just swapped a single motor and its mismatched, or both and not reconfigured the motor compensation etc, or whatever. It begs the question, did they even bother to test it after any repairs or changes?

[playafly187]

Burgerman, you've no doubt inspired me to one day build a true "custom" chair but it'll ultimately have to wait a while and the programmed S-646-SE will have to suffice for now.

You mentioned lithium power. I've skimmed through one of your builds (BM3, I think it was) and my question is, how safe would you say a lithium setup is? I've deal with LiPo batteries in the RC world and have experienced just how unstable they can be. Also, what about price (all of the necessary battery canisters and a proper charger)? I assume the lithium batteries you used are way different than an RC LiPo but admittedly don't know much about the subject.

Also, if one were to build a BM3 clone from scratch, what sort of costs would that incur (assuming that one would be starting with absolutely no parts on hand)?

[Burgerman]

LiPo are highly dangerous and unsuitable and only have short service life.

Lithium ion as used in phones and laptops is almost as bad but has a metal case so a bit safer. Still they can burn or explode if aBMS screws up or if shorted out or over charged. Hence camera and laptop recalls.

LiFePO4 that I use are actually safer than your lead bricks. Those lead bricks can explode if overcharged and giving off hydrogen/oxygen.
LiFePO4 will only burn if heated hot enough to boil the oily electrolyte and even then only with an external heat source/flame to ignite this in the same way as cooking oil. In normal use they are very safe.

Cost? About 3x as much as a set of Odyssey 68Ah batteries. But they are also capable of 3x the range, and about 7 to 10 times the service life if treated correctly. So much cheaper long term. And even with 120Ah replacing the 68Ah in my new BM2 it saves some 50lb of weight too. So its a no brainer. Lead is dead, has been for a decade. Simple? No, plug and play? No, at least if its done properly its not.

Full chair? about 2.7K and a lot of work. Depending how good you are and how much you pay others to get parts made, and what you ruin through lack of knowledge while building it... Some people have attempted this, spent 5x that amount and finished up with no usable chair or worse. If you need to ask the questions about if you are capable yourself to do this right, then its debatable that you will succeed. Certainly getting some engineer to build you one will end in disaster almost garanteed. So only you can know.

[playafly187]

I spent a little time today modifying the joystick (specifically, the placement of the speed dial and on/off toggle switch). It arrived with the toggle switch on the right side just under my palm (as seen a few posts up) and I quickly discovered this would be a problem as even a small bump was enough to jostle my hand, thus turning the chair off unexpectedly. The remedy was easy enough - just switch their positions!





I initially thought this was a design error but given how easy it was to switch around, I now assume that their positioning is based on if the driver is right- or left-handed. Either way, it won't be a problem for me any longer

I also gave it a good cleaning but may end up sanding down the top of the speed dial or painting it. The faded icon kinda bothers me.

I found a cheap swing-out controller mount online and ordered it. I'll probably have to modify it a little such that the swinging action requires a bit of force (or better, the removal of a pin or something) as I don't want it moving while driving. Being able to pull right up to tables without thinking much about the controller, however, would be nice for a change.

[Burgerman]

Faded knob. EBay.

Those are standardised knobs...

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM3-con ... -small.jpg

Rubberised and available in colours and styles to suit... I used one for the same purpose.

[playafly187]

I received the right arm I ordered from eBay today (to get the swing-out arm mechanism) and did a test fit.





Looks good as far as I can tell. I was worried that the force needed to swing it out would be too little but I'm doubting that now. If it proves too easy when I get some seat time with it, i'll look into drilling a small hole to insert a lynch pin or something.

I managed to get my really old S-525 out of storage and have started clean-up and salvaging (why buy a new seat belt when that one still works fine? heh). It's not looking like the seating section is going to transfer over to the S-646-SE

[flagman1776]

Another simple mod to avoid accidentally bumping the switches is to add a swing away palm rest (plate) that blocks contact. Could be as simple as a piece of plasrtic with a hole in it (pushed down over the joy stick) that extends over the switches.

[ex-Gooserider]

A few options if you take the pod apart...

1. Swap the switch and the speed pot - both use the same mounting hole pattern, so it's just a straight screwdriver job...

2. Make or purchase a guard for the switch - the switch is a standard size, and there are several options - simplest is just a "U" shaped piece of material that puts a flange on each side of the toggle so that you have to reach into the hollow of the "U" with a finger to hit the switch....

If you want to swap the pod, ANY "Pilot+" series pod should work with the existing controller and wiring. I can definitely say that the later 'teardrop' shape pods will work because I've made that swap (in both directions) However the mounting hardware is different - the pod you have screws onto a plate at the bottom, the teardrop pods have an angle piece that fits into a slot at the back of the pod and is secured with a couple of screws...

I believe the pod in the picture with the programmer is a VR2 series pod, and those will NOT work without changing out the entire control system.

The seating system on the chair may have been 'original' but may not have come from Sunrise - in a lot of cases only the power-base of the chair came from Sunrise, and a seating system from another manufacturer like Motion Concepts was installed - this is especially the case in 'complex rehab' systems, where the user may have had more complex needs than the stock Sunrise seating systems offered - I'd suspect that to be the case given the attendant switch, as that suggests severe enough disabilities that the user wasn't able to consistently drive themselves...

ex-Gooserider

One thing I certainly don't like is the joystick. Whoever thought it was a good idea to put the on/off toggle switch directly below the joystick was an idiot. Twice during the test run, the palm of my hand bumped it which locked up the tires as it turned off. Not cool. The seat also isn't to my liking but that's an easy fix.

Question - is this the only controller I can use with this chair? I'd much rather use the one from my S-636-SE (it's a VG2, I think is what it's called).

[playafly187]

The teardown continues and now I've run into some concern...





I noticed on the left motor that there's this extra wire just sitting there exposed. It looks to branch off from the frontmost motor wire. Any idea what's up?



The other motor wiring looks fine.



While I was digging around, I pulled loose the control module. It has P/N: 910059. Is this the correct module for the S-646-SE? I have a feeling it's not.

The more I dig into this chair, the more I start second-guessing the purchase.

[Burgerman]

The extra wire used to go to a microswitch. So that when you trip the freewheel lever it disconnect the brake wire, creates an "error" and stops the controller operating.

[playafly187]

Ah ok, so not a huge deal then. I'm more concerned that I've got the wrong control module. Shouldn't it look like this? ( http://www.ebay.com/itm/Quickie-S-646-s ... 1798520902 )



I found this in the Sunrise parts catalog.

I guess I'm just looking for some confirmation that I indeed don't have the S-646-SE module before I e-mail the guy I bought it from on eBay. It was advertised at "S-646-SE 8.5 mph"

I assume the controller will only be good for 7 mph? I compared this new chair against my current 6.5 mph 636. Multiple GPS phone apps showed it was indeed going 2 mph faster than the 636. I'm totally clueless at this point.

[woodygb]

Your chair is probably listed with many different control modules ..that ebay one is a DELPHI ....yours is a version of the Pilot+.

[playafly187]

I called Sunrise Medical and spoke to someone in their technical department. They found the chair's original order and confirmed this is not the correct module for the chair

They wouldn't really say if it was safe to use or not, I guess they didn't want to make themselves liable if something went wrong.

The correct product number, they told me, is 910062 (100A). The one I have now is 80A apparently (910059). I don't know enough about this stuff to determine if that will even make a difference or if it's safe to use? Any insight would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[woodygb]

Firstly it is safe.

The rating of 80 amp rather than 100 amp only means that it will not have the same torque available ...the top speed ( which is simply related to volts ) on the FLAT should be unchanged.

[Burgerman]

They wouldn't really say if it was safe to use or not, I guess they didn't want to make themselves liable if something went wrong.

What makes you think they would know?

Its safe. As long as compensation settings are about right.
Woodygb is correct.

It will lack ultimate torque. (BY 20 percent?). And quite likely its not programmed correctly. (compensation settings at least) and 101 other things could be better.

[playafly187]

Good to know, thanks guys. I found a cheapo module on eBay, will give that a shot. I figure torque is already going to be lacking compared to what I'm used to - no sense in limiting it even more.

[playafly187]

In an attempt to save additional weight, I ordered a soft back (nylon) for the chair. I've always just had a solid metal plate with padding over it and realized recently that I don't spend much time actually leaning back against it so the nylon will cut some weight without sacrificing comfort.

And for the complete opposite (non weight-saving) question: does anyone make a seat elevator system for the S-646-SE? I've looked around a bit but haven't found anything. I currently have a tilt system on my main chair that I only use for elevation purposes (I scoot to the edge of the seat, tilt it up and use the height to get into bed / shower). It's not very safe at all and I know that one day, I'm going to fall. Raising the seat straight up would make things much safer.

[Sully]

No two wheeler's are exactly the same, Our malfunctions are all different in some way. A simple tilt is not the same as a seat that lifts straight up. A seating professional can guide you but he/she can not simply say that this or that will be perfect for you. "ONLY YOU" can affirm what works well for you.

[playafly187]

Sully - Right, I realize that. I guess my question was more along the lines of if a seat elevator system even exists for the S-646-SE?

The nylon seat back arrived over the weekend and I was able to get it installed on my current chair just to try it out. Turns out, it's just a tiny bit too wide so when I lean back, there's too much slack and my shoulders interfere with the handle bars. I'm thinking I'll have to somehow space the handle bars out maybe a half inch on each side. Spacers or washers of some sort will probably do the trick where the bars mount to the base of the seat. FYI, the rear back plate I removed weighed 5.5 pounds so some decent weight savings there I suppose.

Something else I've been thinking about as the build progresses. I don't plan to drive the chair off-road any so I know super wide tires aren't for me. From what I understand (at least, with cars), wider tires obviously offer more grip and better handling but with more tire surface contacting the ground, gas mileage is impacted slightly. Is this a concern I should have with the chair? It arrived with a standard set of knobby tires and the reason I'm asking is because I noticed my really old S-525 has slightly narrower tires. Would I even notice the difference of say, a quarter or half of an inch narrower tires?