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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby expresso » 04 Dec 2016, 04:04

Gnomatic wrote:I'm not sure 21st Century chairs are even coded to be billed to Medicare. They do have a 100Ah LiFe battery option with a BMS but by the time you include the charger it needs the price is north of $4K for the battery alone.

To achieve 12mph they just change the sprocket size for the chain drive(s), so it goes fast at the expense of torque.



how bad would this chair be in terms of torque vs speed - they say its high torque motors

its an off road chair mostly - cant be too low for that purpose
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby expresso » 04 Dec 2016, 04:06

this wasnt offered to me - but was to a friend - i was a bit surprised - didnt think they would do this brand

i actually like the RWD V4 model - but got used to the speed -need at least 8mph wish the V4 was faster
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Gnomatic » 04 Dec 2016, 04:09

expresso wrote:
Gnomatic wrote:I'm not sure 21st Century chairs are even coded to be billed to Medicare. They do have a 100Ah LiFe battery option with a BMS but by the time you include the charger it needs the price is north of $4K for the battery alone.

To achieve 12mph they just change the sprocket size for the chain drive(s), so it goes fast at the expense of torque.



how bad would this chair be in terms of torque vs speed - they say its high torque motors

its an off road chair mostly - cant be too low for that purpose


The off road versions of their chairs have a 6.5MPH top speed. It's speed vs. torque, you choose.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby expresso » 04 Dec 2016, 04:33

i got used to mines 8.5 and feels fine to me - but i do feel it a bit less going up hills etc, with speed slowing down - not alot but i feel it - assuming its the motors

now i can live with it - but if i loose more than what i have now - not sure if i like that - if the chair does 11.8 - i wonder how much do you loose on the bottom then ?

hard to know this unless you have the chair already - then its too late
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 04 Dec 2016, 07:45

how bad would this chair be in terms of torque vs speed - they say its high torque motors


Power is fixed, same battery/controller/motors.

And torque x rpm (speed) = power.

So a 12mph version of the chair will have exactly half the torque of a 6mph chair. Which isn't adequate for good turning, or ramps, curbs, off road, or heavy users. It also means much more battery power is used up per mile.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby expresso » 04 Dec 2016, 19:01

i am not interesting in losing bottom end - i feel fine how it works now and feel it when i go uphills -

i was just curious - about this boulder chair doing 12 mph - they can make it go 7 8 10 12 - etc but lets say at max speed 12 - how can they offer a chair at that speed if the bottom end is not enough for the basic movements

turning etc.

Could it be possible the motors they are using compensates a bit and are just better higher torque motors in general so the bottom end is not as affected as much - as lets say my chair 646se - sunrise motors

the boulder motors look huge compared to any other stock motors i seen - i cant see anyone wanting a fast chair if the bottom would be terrible -

what i am hearing here is - NO matter what motor is used - how big etc, - anything over 6.5mph - would be affected by speed - ? 8.5mph - seems doable - but after that - i wouldnt know - Shirley with the larger tires going from 8 inch to 10 inch i believe said he lost bottom end - not sure how much if it affected him alot or is Ok with it - he hasnt changed the rims back to the 8 - so i am assuming hes OK with it and accepted it -

SO theres no way to get speed on ANY wheelchair motors with out loosing bottom end ? not counting going to higher volts to get the speed etc, - since we are all working off 24V system -
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Gnomatic » 04 Dec 2016, 21:55

Bounder motors are huge, I know a guy with one and they really do dwarf about ant powerchair motor I've seen. How powerful are they? I can't answer that.

What I do know is those chairs are still 24v. I also know the company only sells the off-road version of that chair in the 6.5mph configuration. That's pretty telling IMO.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby expresso » 04 Dec 2016, 22:39

i guess but all the chairs look the same to me on there website - not sure what the difference is between off road or non off road - look both the same -

http://www.wheelchairs.com/products.htm

says for the fast chair - users up to 500 pounds - thats alot - i am only 160 lbs - if they feel its ok for heavy users also - how bad can it be riding around normally - even a bit off road -

besides the wheels - looks the same - not sure what the difference is then - i know they have two different motors also - the high high torque is for slower speed - heavy users etc,

but the other motor i think shows it can be had in a few different speeds - by reprogramming -

another thing - can the user get a programmer to do it themselves - ?

which one does your friend have - does he like his -
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby expresso » 04 Dec 2016, 22:55

Ok i see it now - the off road tops out at 6.5 mph - must be the stronger motors on that one -

http://www.wheelchairs.com/pdf/offroadp ... s2009a.pdf

you know 6.5 isnt that that bad really - for off road - its fine - you dont want to be doing 10 miles off road and hit a tree :)

i be ok with that speed off road - but most of my riding is on the road - not really off road - i rather have the speed - but all depending how much worse the bottom is also - unless i test ride one - i cant know - and i dont think they have demos :)


i dont need a wide chair - my seat is 17 wide by 18 - i can do 17 x 17 also - so this would be my pick - comes with 22's - not good - can get 24s i think - but the motors - up to 9mph - is one motor - if you want more speed - you move up to the next motor which ADDs 100 pounds - whow - those are heavy motors

http://www.wheelchairs.com/pdf/narrow20110121web.pdf
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby expresso » 04 Dec 2016, 23:07

http://www.wheelchairs.com/pdf/brochure ... medium.pdf

here is shows the off road chair - says you can get up to 7.6 mph with off road package - thats decent

i would stick with narrow frame 24 inch wide - off road is too wide - 28.5 - means you need at least 30 inches to ride thru -
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 05 Dec 2016, 01:46

Bounder motors are huge, I know a guy with one and they really do dwarf about ant powerchair motor I've seen. How powerful are they? I can't answer that.


Same. Physically big just means they can (if designed well) lose heat faster so are more 'watts'. But that doesn't mean more power. It means you can abuse them more for a long time before they overheat. The torque limit is defined by Amps and efficiency. The speed limit is defined by RPM/per volt at the wheel. (Gearing).
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Gnomatic » 05 Dec 2016, 01:49

expresso wrote:Ok i see it now - the off road tops out at 6.5 mph - must be the stronger motors on that one -


Same motors, just different sized sprockets
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Gnomatic » 05 Dec 2016, 02:13

expresso wrote:http://www.wheelchairs.com/pdf/brochure03122012revised_medium.pdf

here is shows the off road chair - says you can get up to 7.6 mph with off road package - thats decent

i would stick with narrow frame 24 inch wide - off road is too wide - 28.5 - means you need at least 30 inches to ride thru -



I need off-road. I live in a condo development in the 'burbs. No sidewalks connecting it to the rest of the neighborhood. I've been in an X5/V6 as my everyday chair for ~10yrs. Its the only stock chair I've known that meets my needs. Plus I like to go hiking on trails.(if the weather is warm) Horse trail, ATV trails, foot trails, you name it.

So I'm very well accustomed to a 28.5" wide base. My narrowest door at home is 32", no problem. Don't miss my old narrower chairs. At all. No way in hell I'll trade vastly improved offroad performance for a bit narrower base. Wouldn't even consider it. I can't build my own like BM to get the best of both worlds. So I must choose. I would love for my chair to got a bit faster I'll admit.

I wouldn't mind trying out the offroad Bounder. Group 27 batteries, bet you could stuff a good sized LiFe pack in there.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 05 Dec 2016, 02:51

You may find it huge heavy and a bit agricultural. With a massive backside sticking out of the rear. Never seen one personally, but looking at the pics...
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby expresso » 05 Dec 2016, 17:37

Gnomatic wrote:
expresso wrote:http://www.wheelchairs.com/pdf/brochure03122012revised_medium.pdf

here is shows the off road chair - says you can get up to 7.6 mph with off road package - thats decent

i would stick with narrow frame 24 inch wide - off road is too wide - 28.5 - means you need at least 30 inches to ride thru -



I need off-road. I live in a condo development in the 'burbs. No sidewalks connecting it to the rest of the neighborhood. I've been in an X5/V6 as my everyday chair for ~10yrs. Its the only stock chair I've known that meets my needs. Plus I like to go hiking on trails.(if the weather is warm) Horse trail, ATV trails, foot trails, you name it.

So I'm very well accustomed to a 28.5" wide base. My narrowest door at home is 32", no problem. Don't miss my old narrower chairs. At all. No way in hell I'll trade vastly improved offroad performance for a bit narrower base. Wouldn't even consider it. I can't build my own like BM to get the best of both worlds. So I must choose. I would love for my chair to got a bit faster I'll admit.

I wouldn't mind trying out the offroad Bounder. Group 27 batteries, bet you could stuff a good sized LiFe pack in there.



yes your right - where you live - you need an outdoor model - my chair wont hold up to your chair where you live - i am in the City - not much off road at all - it feels tight around here in many places - our apts here not big and spacious - my door way would be enough to get the chair in my place - would just feel much larger indoors - for me not a big deal really since i get out of my chair once home and transfer to another one for indoors only chair -

outdoors 6.5 isnt bad - i seen that you can get it at 7.6mph max - on there website - would be based on weight i guess - if too heavy - maybe not -

its very strange chair for me - never seen one - unless i actually demo one in person - i be afraid to get one and find out i didnt like it - speed wise - 12mp isnt a good choice - at most i would get 10mph version - this is just talking - i am not looking to do it - sounds nice but not sure how it feels after - uphills etc, -

my speed feels just fine for all around use - i like the frontier V4 RWD chair also - if only a bit faster would be even better - but then again - who knows - older you get - maybe i want to slow down at some point anyway - for now i dont :)
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 05 Dec 2016, 17:47

I am 56. 57 in april. I fell out twice in 2016. Flipped over the back at about 12mph. (A balance point/light battery/programming mixture of things. Didn't hurt, rescued and reassembled with chair, by fire service that happened to be going past my street. And flipped out over the back and sideways at about 4mph, which hurt, in the rain and dark! My fault, and I had to call for help... Nobody around. And I still go 16mph on the open smooth stretches.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby expresso » 05 Dec 2016, 19:17

lucky you - if i crashed or flipped over - i am sure i will be hurt and be out of commission for some time - not looking forward to that - your chair is great and all - but its not for everyone - and only way i would use a chair like yours - would be to have a sure anti tipper setup on the chair -

looking at the rear of your chair - i dont see how those little wheels would stop anyone from flipping over - i know you put them there for minor things - dont think you had in mind to keep it from flipping over -

you have good upper body - hand control etc, - that changes everything - i cant speak for everyone - but alot of users have trouble with both upper and lower - in those cases - your chair would be dangerous if its very tippy with the short wheelbase etc, -

if you can handle it - Great - i like it tippy but need to know it cant flip on me - i have wheeled with the P222se - and no matter how far back i went - it didnt tip over - its a scary feeling that i got used to - that chair scraps the battery box 99 percent of the times when i wheelie - its very easy to do -

now the other chair 646 - does also but much much more stable with the anti tippers on that chair - feel safer going up steep hills with that one - speed is fine - but as reflexs slow down - speed is less needed and wanted -

time will tell - go with the flow - it works now - looks like i may have a appt. this month for another chair - shooting for same model 646se - crossing my fingers - before Trump cuts the budget
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Gnomatic » 05 Dec 2016, 20:25

The X5 is a good climber. It can go up pretty steep grades, but it loses traction before it can reach a point that it'll tip backwards. Much easier to tip backwards with my previous RWD chairs, even with the anti-tippers on the back when climbing steep grades.

I have tipped it on its side while traversing a steep grassy hill sideways. I was leaning to the upside of the hill while going across, and did not see a hole on the downside of the hill I drove my downside drive tire into. Over I went, not fun. Compared to other chairs I've had, the Frontier is relatively more difficult to tip over. Believe me, I've tried. Sometimes, those heavy lead bricks come in handy as a nice ballast, keeping the chair's center of gravity low.

Its one f my concerns going lithium. I'll probably put a heavy steel plate under my pack once its in my chair, so the CoG doesn't change too much.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby expresso » 06 Dec 2016, 06:44

Gnomatic wrote:The X5 is a good climber. It can go up pretty steep grades, but it loses traction before it can reach a point that it'll tip backwards. Much easier to tip backwards with my previous RWD chairs, even with the anti-tippers on the back when climbing steep grades.

I have tipped it on its side while traversing a steep grassy hill sideways. I was leaning to the upside of the hill while going across, and did not see a hole on the downside of the hill I drove my downside drive tire into. Over I went, not fun. Compared to other chairs I've had, the Frontier is relatively more difficult to tip over. Believe me, I've tried. Sometimes, those heavy lead bricks come in handy as a nice ballast, keeping the chair's center of gravity low.

Its one f my concerns going lithium. I'll probably put a heavy steel plate under my pack once its in my chair, so the CoG doesn't change too much.



you need the chair you have now - or an off road chair - if i had to pick a different chair than what i have now - if i had not choice - i would consider the V4 - unless i have choice for other models with higher speeds etc, -

and your concern about the lithium is correct - my chair felt great with the lithium - but since the day i crashed - i realized it had some what something to do with it besides me just going too fast in a spot where - some bikes get off and walk them down and around the curve - - that should have been a wake up -

being that i done it haft dozen times already - that one time - things went wrong - and i crashed - i realize how dangerous that area is and wonder why i even went that fast - i was so excited over this lithium and speed and range - i was high all summer with it

i been back after and will always - but i SLOW it down in that area not only with joystick i slow the speeds down so i cant go faster till i clear it and then i can speed it up -

the few times i used the chair with the extra ADD ON pack also - it added more weight on the rear and felt better - more traction - etc, between my tires going bad - low grip on them - the speed - myself - down hill on a curve sideways leaning - bit damp also - less weight on rear - and i crashed -

i though i only bent the sidearm post - but i noticed i bent the upper frame also - you dont feel it at all - and hard to even notice it - i only recently noticed it when i added the breaker - i noticed it in the photos i took for the breaker - i realized its bent in the photos -

but now i know - its limits more or less - and mines also - i hope i learned my lesson - if i make another ADD ON over the winter - i may just connect it and leave it there - dosnt harm me leaving it there connected -

i guess 50 lbs less makes a difference

finally got my new PL 8 - just updated with presets and ready to use it for a bit to test it -
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 06 Dec 2016, 10:53

What you should do is post a list of questions in a new thread to ask what every setting does. Say 2 at a time on each tab.

So you can learn what/why for each setting or battery type. Without wasting lots of money buying things all winter! :P
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby expresso » 06 Dec 2016, 16:37

Burgerman wrote:What you should do is post a list of questions in a new thread to ask what every setting does. Say 2 at a time on each tab.

So you can learn what/why for each setting or battery type. Without wasting lots of money buying things all winter! :P



Good idea - will do - thanks
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Gnomatic » 06 Dec 2016, 16:51

How much does the pack you built weigh, expresso?
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 06 Dec 2016, 18:46

480g per cell, x7 x8 = 26kg or about 57lb plus a few featherweight plastic blocks and buss bars.
A single group 24 is about 50 to 54lb. So half. For about 250% range increase...

http://www.evassemble.com/index.php?mai ... cts_id=175
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby expresso » 06 Dec 2016, 18:52

Gnomatic wrote:How much does the pack you built weigh, expresso?


i never checked how much it weighs - the pack i use now - is 3 rows 12ah cells - then i sit in a plastic container - from container store - and sit that in a backpack - or messanger bag - - strap it on my chair - on the rear push handles

and use two bungee cords so it wont swing away feels fine - i would say 25 or 30 pounds is this pack - dont know for sure - the next pack i want to make is 45ah - same 3 rows but 15ah cells - pack same way - just have to find the right size items to sit in and backpack which fits and easy to get to

thats why a messagner bag has a flap only - lift it - get the charger cable plug in and charge - when done - put cable back in - flap down - bungee cords back on - you dont have to remove it off the chair ever if you dont want - and you can bring it to any other chair you have - so very convenient
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Gnomatic » 06 Dec 2016, 19:00

I should have clarified, I was asking about the 105Ah pack in your 646.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 06 Dec 2016, 19:10

480g per cell, x7 x8 = 26kg or about 57lb plus a few featherweight plastic blocks and buss bars.
A single group 24 is about 50 to 54lb. So half. For about 250% range increase...
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby expresso » 06 Dec 2016, 19:16

Gnomatic wrote:I should have clarified, I was asking about the 105Ah pack in your 646.


oh sorry - i didnt realize that either - i take what BM says is correct - 55lbs - more or less - its like having ONE Group 24 battery in your chair instead of two -- big difference - feels fine - but have to be careful i guess down hills maybe
the rear has less traction -

but your chair may be different - since you sit right on it over the Mid Wheel - i think right - - in my case - my seating is not right over the rear wheel - its the best it can be - since i have a seat lift etc, - its as far back as it can go
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Gnomatic » 06 Dec 2016, 20:43

Burgerman wrote:
480g per cell, x7 x8 = 26kg or about 57lb plus a few featherweight plastic blocks and buss bars.
A single group 24 is about 50 to 54lb. So half. For about 250% range increase...


Don't know how I missed that the first time, but I did. :roll:

So if lead is ~708lb/ft3 and the area of my battery case is almost exactly 1 sq ft(144 sq in), sticking a 1/2" lead plate under my pack would add about 30lb so the chair's center of gravity shouldn't be too badly affected.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 06 Dec 2016, 21:53

Yes.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby brianpile1 » 20 Jan 2017, 13:28

Hi BM

I finally bit the bullet and have taken delivery of a new Frontier V4 [rear wheel drive], which I was pleased to see was number two on your list!

I went for pneumatic tyres on the castors [they normally come with solid wheels apparently] and have had them filled with the Oko tyre sealant. I had it fitted with the same tyres on the rear that you use [the Kevlar reinforced ones]. interestingly this makes the chair even wider, as not only are these tyres slightly wider than the standard nobblies, but when they fitted them initially the tyres were hitting the frame, so they had to fit a spacer on the inside over the driveshaft before fitting the wheels. I sent them your settings and I think they did make SOME of the adjustments as the chair feels a lot more "lively" than their [All Terrain Wheelchairs] demonstrator was.

I will eventually do the lithium conversion, but I want to run down the standard MK gel batteries first. And I need to get the dimensions of the battery boxes so I can see how many lifePo4 cells I can squeeze in.

Brian
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