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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Glitterfairy » 15 Feb 2016, 18:34

Thanks for the list by the way. The Puma sounds good and I have tried the Salsa M. The Salsa R2 looks like a good option. I already have a Jay backrest so will save some money on that score. There's no electric centre mount footrest though, but all the rest seems good. We should also make a list of chairs that we would not recommend, I can think of a few!
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 15 Feb 2016, 18:54

That would be a very long list. All the chairs ever made that are NOT on this list! :shock:
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby jonv » 15 Feb 2016, 19:39

Burgerman wrote:Wrong.

My chairs are just 37 inches long total inc footplates, (shorter than all other powerchairs). And both of your rear drive chairs are as long as an oil tanker and they have the rear wheels behind your backside. Mine are UNDER it so it turns under you.

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/images- ... ir-700.jpg

If I reverse to a wall, my HEAD touches first.
My toes are 37 inches from my head. Thats about 10 inches shorter than your chairs or any mid drive chairs.
Footplate is central so no swingaway footplate to hit doorframes, and anti tips are inboard and short for same reasons.

Anyplace you can get with a centre drive I can go too... And turn around.

So rear drive CAN work indoors if configured well.

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/control.mp4 And are better for control!


But nowhere sells has your chairs !! :lol:

BTW is there no way you can set a max speed so you can move at a lower speed more consistently without shooting off?
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 15 Feb 2016, 20:29

My chairs are easay to drive at a super slow slugs pace.

I do not need a profile set up for "slow" indoor. Once CORRECTLY programmed, they go and steer exactly as fast as you "think" them to go.
No longer is there any need for setting a slow profile, any more than setting your computer mouse to slow to click an icon...

Even this:
http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM3-con ... /15mph.mp4
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby LROBBINS » 15 Feb 2016, 21:44

He also has a speed pot to turn things down just in case the joystick gets hit.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 15 Feb 2016, 22:06

Yes, to clarify, I dont need it turned down to drive indoors. I have accurate control and good coordination.

But if surrounded by people or kids, that may grab it, knock it, or if in a bar or resturant I do turn it down because you never know what may knock or touch the stick. Or if driving by Radio Control, I also turn it down.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby jonv » 16 Feb 2016, 00:24

Burgerman wrote:My chairs are easay to drive at a super slow slugs pace.

I do not need a profile set up for "slow" indoor. Once CORRECTLY programmed, they go and steer exactly as fast as you "think" them to go.
No longer is there any need for setting a slow profile, any more than setting your computer mouse to slow to click an icon...

Even this:
http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM3-con ... /15mph.mp4

I might though to save my hands and not having to worry if I cant hold it in position for extended periods.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 16 Feb 2016, 02:20

To properly control a powerchair programmed to perform you need fully functioning hands, very good hand position with side of hand on pod, and good joystick skills. If not forget it. You will takeout a wall.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby ex-Gooserider » 16 Feb 2016, 04:42

I can sort of see Jonv's point... Even with good hand control and the rest, if I'm travelling with someone and I want to go the same speed they are, it is easier to dial back the top speed with the pot and nail the joystick than it is to hold it half way... Not so much physically demanding to hold it, as that it takes less concentration, so I can pay more attention to the people I'm with...

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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 16 Feb 2016, 09:59

Well yes I have done that. But with the correct technique its easy to hold any speed in comfort. But you wouldn't do that with a car would you? What if you need a dab of go, to lift wheels or catch up? Becomes a pain resetting speed all the time. My chairs are on 100% from morning to night apart from in the pub, or if a carer wants to move one to vacuum that spot or swap my chairs in a morning.

*not the 16mph one, its set to about 7 or 8 mph (halfway on the speed pot) most of the time unless I am outdoors.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby jonv » 16 Feb 2016, 13:53

A
ex-Gooserider wrote:I can sort of see Jonv's point... Even with good hand control and the rest, if I'm travelling with someone and I want to go the same speed they are, it is easier to dial back the top speed with the pot and nail the joystick than it is to hold it half way... Not so much physically demanding to hold it, as that it takes less concentration, so I can pay more attention to the people I'm with...

ex-Gooserider


Could a manufacturer install a pot ?

I was hoping I could sort of palm the joystick as my thumbs are pretty bad.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 16 Feb 2016, 15:10

Many manufacturers have systems with a pot (speed knob) already.

But theres no way on earth to have proper control of a properly programmed chair with the palm of your hand. That MUST sit alongside the joystick pod as a stability aid and position reference. Its unlikely you woul;d be able to use the same settings I use. You would benefit from removing all the delays in acc, and decelerating a turn. But would need all the turn rates and forward acc rates lowered so it can be operated with less "finess" so to speak.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby steves1977uk » 16 Feb 2016, 16:57

I drive with my right heel, I have all deaccel settings on 100 and accel & turn accel I have on 80, turn speed set at 15-35 as this is the most comfortable for me on 4-pole motors, on 2-pole ones everything was maxed except turn speed.

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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 16 Feb 2016, 17:42

How on earth you manage that beats me!
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Wanttheimpossible » 16 Feb 2016, 18:34

I can report that Steve is a good driver, lol. :D
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby steves1977uk » 16 Feb 2016, 18:41

Thanks Mik! :)
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 16 Feb 2016, 18:54

We should set up a race around some town, places of interest. Collect beermats or something!
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby jonv » 16 Feb 2016, 19:08

[quote="Burgerman"]Many manufacturers have systems with a pot (speed knob) already.

But theres no way on earth to have proper control of a properly programmed chair with the palm of your hand. [/quote}

what about those mushroom control knobs ?
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby jonv » 16 Feb 2016, 19:10

[quote="jonv"][quote="Burgerman"]Many manufacturers have systems with a pot (speed knob) already.

But theres no way on earth to have proper control of a properly programmed chair with the palm of your hand. [/quote}

what about those mushroom control knobs ?
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 16 Feb 2016, 19:14

It doesn't help.

You program it so its as accurate as your PC mouse and it goes instantly to the place you say, at the speed you tell it. To have that accuracy you must have your HAND sat on the pod for stability to allow your fingers to move accurately maybe 2mm at a time as needed.

Like this. Watch my hand and joystick positions and corrections all the time. I am making instantaneous mm perfect corrections to steering as I am wheelying through doorways... Very small STEER movements and all the time making minute accurate corrections. I don't use full turn stick at either end of the house, turn as I brake, correct turn as I accelerate etc. http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/control.mp4

And I fly these https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0M7DPHFH6c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwXwg0LmU04

When you get good! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PptMrBFAO-A
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby steves1977uk » 16 Feb 2016, 19:35

This is the joystick I use.

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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 16 Feb 2016, 20:07

On the inside thats the same as all the others. Its how you get adequate sensitivity with your feet than beats me!
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby steves1977uk » 16 Feb 2016, 20:22

It took quite a while to learn BM, I remember the first foot control I used, it was a small cylinder in two halfs which had 4 microswitches arranged in a diamond shape. This was a very poor attempt of a controller because if you pushed too hard the switches would stick down, and the chair went by itself! You couldn't do a freely 360 degree turn, each turn was 45 degrees so you were limited to 8 directions!

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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby LROBBINS » 16 Feb 2016, 20:36

There are many people who successfully drive chairs who cannot handle a joystick the way John does. Some examples:

(1) I am ambulatory, but I drive my daughter's chair from an attendant joystick. As John recommends, my hand must be solidly planted on the housing, even more so when not seated in the chair because the tendency for relative movement is just that much greater. However, because I'm standing alongside, I can't brace my hand on the sides of the pod, but must rest the heel of my hand solidly on the top - I have the switches mounted on the sides.

(2) One friend of ours in Lansing, MI who has a very severe athetoid CP uses a custom made detented foot-operated joystick, my recollection is that it has 8 "clicks" in X and 8 in Y. It also has an hydraulic damping mechanism. With this stabilization he manages to get around nicely, and even had (when last we were there 18 years ago) a drive-from-chair modified John Deere utility vehicle. He also controls a voice-output computer this way, but usually finds it faster to communicate by pointing to words or letters on a lap board. It takes a while to learn how to understand what his constantly moving hand is aiming at. He's an athletic facilities manager for Michigan State University.

(3) Another person with CP in Lansing, more an acquaintance than close friend, drives, also drives and talks using a custom-made foot operated joystick. Actually, it's a flat plate that translates on linear bearings in X and Y. She does not drive fast, but she is pretty accurate.

(4) A friend here in Italy drives with a normal joystick, but he has very little hand control. He has a long stick of a handle on his joystick and actually hits it quickly one way or another in order to drive. He's never going to maneuver the way John does, but it's lots better than not having any independent mobility at all. He communicates with a transparent board with letters on it held between himself and whoever he's "talking" to who watches where his eyes are aimed. (It's actually more complicated, and more effective, than that, but that's the gist of an etran board.)

(5) My daughter Rachele has had some complex spinal column issues the last few years, on top of her dystonic CP, and is doing very little driving at this point. But when she does, it's with 3 head-operated switches (left, go, right, left+go, right+go) and, on a very good day, a foot operated reverse. Obviously there's no question of millimeter control here, but there's even more need for right-now programming, right-on motor compensation and motors with enough torque and a controller with high enough current limit to let the motor compensation actually work; otherwise driving is a series of S-curves.

As with most everything else we talk about here, it's not one size fits all.

Ciao,
Lenny

Ciao,
Lenny
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 16 Feb 2016, 21:59

Or with chairs.

Not everybody needs speed. Or daft range. Or off road abilities. Or require light weight (or folding) chairs.

The biggest thing I really need is complete reliability. I cannot get out and walk. I have ileostomy, and urinary issues than often cannot wait while I am rescued! And I get into desolat places alone, like the airfeild. If I was last to leave and break down, puncture, electrical, motor, or whatever I would likely not be found for days. And have a habit of leaving my phone behind. Not that theres much of a signmal there anyway!

I once broke down in my own garden in the sheltered brick building where the mowers live. Fortunately someone found me within the hour and it wasnt visible from the house. Just lucky. But I was frozen and in need of a toilet fast!

Thats why I backup everything, and build chairs well. After reliability the rest is just wants rather than needs. Like speed, tubeless tyres etc.

But thats the point. All this is custom and modified to suit whatever needs you have. My own chairs really wouldnt siut anyone else. They are unstable, and frankly a bit dangerous. I have been flipped over the back more times than I can remember over the years. And sideways because of the narow inboard anti tips. It tips back, and then sideways because its like having one central one... But to me thats a fair compromise as it allows me to get into and turn in tight spots. Shorter chair. You need what you need. Its why it bothers me when people say they are going to clone my chair(s). That wasnt ever the intention.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby ex-Gooserider » 18 Feb 2016, 01:28

jonv wrote:A
ex-Gooserider wrote:I can sort of see Jonv's point... Even with good hand control and the rest, if I'm travelling with someone and I want to go the same speed they are, it is easier to dial back the top speed with the pot and nail the joystick than it is to hold it half way... Not so much physically demanding to hold it, as that it takes less concentration, so I can pay more attention to the people I'm with...

ex-Gooserider


Could a manufacturer install a pot ?

I was hoping I could sort of palm the joystick as my thumbs are pretty bad.


*I* have installed pots on Pilot+ joystick modules that didn't have them. I'm pretty sure I've posted how I did it.... At least on that pod it's pretty easy, hardest part was locating the hole for the pot so everything would fit...

On the board for the Pilot + (and rebranded Pride Quantum pods) if you look at the board inside, it is fully populated except for one SMD resistor and three holes that are conveniently silkscreened with a 'POT' label... Add a pot, one resistor, and cut a couple of solder pad bridges, and you now have a pod with a speed pot instead of joystick set speed LED's... (instead you get the option of programming in multiple 'speed profiles')

I suspect that most other controllers would be similar just because of the economics of manufacturing... Rather than making multiple versions of a circuit board, it is easier to make one that has all the features and then use a combination of hardware and software configuration to create the different models. This implies that if you know how, you can 'upgrade' by retrofitting the correct parts.

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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby jonv » 24 Feb 2016, 00:00

Burgerman wrote:Many manufacturers have systems with a pot (speed knob) already.

But theres no way on earth to have proper control of a properly programmed chair with the palm of your hand. That MUST sit alongside the joystick pod as a stability aid and position reference. Its unlikely you woul;d be able to use the same settings I use. You would benefit from removing all the delays in acc, and decelerating a turn. But would need all the turn rates and forward acc rates lowered so it can be operated with less "finess" so to speak.


I bought a salsa m for 1k with the specs you recommended - seems ok so far and smooth.

BTW if I go to US as im planning too , I assume I will need a 240 - 110v transformer ?

thanks,

j
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby LROBBINS » 24 Feb 2016, 09:25

BTW if I go to US as im planning too , I assume I will need a 240 - 110v transformer ?
Depends. Take a look at the label on the charger. Many these days can handle 110 as well as 220, either automatically or via a switch. Ciao, Lenny
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby jonv » 24 Feb 2016, 13:46

LROBBINS wrote:
BTW if I go to US as im planning too , I assume I will need a 240 - 110v transformer ?
Depends. Take a look at the label on the charger. Many these days can handle 110 as well as 220, either automatically or via a switch. Ciao, Lenny

Thanks, unfortunately there is another problem :(
I cant ride my salsa in full tilt any more after putting a rucksack on -or after taking it off. The amber speed lights also wont stop flashing regardless of whether I tilt or not , though it does move with no tilt i need the tilt for my spine.

Did I get ripped off?
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 24 Feb 2016, 14:10

No you just don't understand things.

In a stupid attemmpt at big brother, to save us from ourselves and to make things over complex and very unreliable all powerchairs that have a fancy powered seat, lift, tilt, leg positioning, recline, etc have devices that tell them what position the seat is in. Thats so they can limit the chairs speed or stop it moving altogether in many situations.

So if you have any common sense at all you dont need anyone telling you what you are allowed to do or telling you how fast you are "allowed" to go.

In programming many of these sensors are configured so that if theres a fault the chair slows or stops as well as if the seat may be tilted or in a position that moves the CG or affects chairs stability it stops, with an error code (flashing lights), or slows... I even disconnect the freewheel inhibit as if it fails I break down. To me thats not an option.

Personally I would leave all the end point sensors designed only to tell the actuator when it reaches full travel. And throw all the others in the bin. But these will then need to be disabled in the programming. Or you could JUST disable them in programming. So that nothing causes wrrors, and nothing slows the chair down. Then everything is up to you. But reliability (and functionality) is increased at your own risk.

So your job is to find which sensor, is failed, positioned incorrectly, or disconnected/bad connection. Or find something mechanical that may be causing this like a loose bolt or trapped cable etc to fix it.
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