WheelchairDriver

Posted: **16 Aug 2016, 09:40**

http://www.invacare-eu-export.com/news/ ... -colourful

New for 2016! More colours! :lol:

Brushless? nope And invacare are the only manufacturer that actually MAKE brushless motors!
Lithium? nope
Tubeless? nope
User programmable? nope
Rear view cam to make use of that screen, built in phone/gps/maps/improved range/adjustable c.g. so its not so nose heavy/on board fast charger/12v car charging/kevlar reinforced puncture proof or low pressure high floatation tyres/stainless fastners or bearings/sensible sized wiring loom? (look up invacare fires) nope...

More coloured paint? Yes! (The marketing dept. think we are all low IQ idiots)

As an option:

To make the wheelchair not only more colourful, but also more powerful, a heavy-duty power pack, including 4-pole motors and 90A power module, can be chosen (as an option).

I would say essential option. But still 6mph. But this option makes this a far more interesting chair! One that is worth looking at.

Posted: **16 Aug 2016, 10:52**

Typical, just more of the same ole s!$t. There's certainly no enthusiasm in any mobility company to actually IMPROVE powerchairs. A lithium battery pack should be standard as it's 2016, not 1986!!!. A 120 amp controller and 4-pole 4mph HD motors should be the minimum spec for better torque, along with tubeless tyres.

Steve

Posted: **16 Aug 2016, 10:57**

steves1977uk wrote:Typical, just more of the same ole s!$t. There's certainly no enthusiasm in any mobility company to actually IMPROVE powerchairs. A lithium battery pack should be standard as it's 2016, not 1986!!!. A 120 amp controller and 4-pole 4mph HD motors should be the minimum spec for better torque, along with tubeless tyres.

Steve

The 90a controller can boost to 120a I believe.

Posted: **16 Aug 2016, 12:25**

No I think that's R-net only. :?:

Posted: **16 Aug 2016, 23:52**

Is it me or does the rear tyre on the side that you can't see fully look like it's got a puncture? Not a great start when it happens in the promo ad :lol:

Posted: **16 Aug 2016, 23:53**

Is it me or does the rear tyre on the side that you can't see fully look like it's got a puncture? Not a great start when it happens in the promo ad :lol:

Posted: **17 Aug 2016, 09:30**

No its definitely a flat tyre. But it doesn't matter as the user is AB anyway.

Posted: **19 Aug 2016, 10:48**

Burgerman wrote:More coloured paint? Yes! (The marketing dept. think we are all low IQ idiots)

John, agree with you 110%, but if you think how many people fall for this rubbish then I can't help but think that maybe the marketing departments are correct in taking us for gullible idiots. For as long as we keep accepting the manufacturers crap they will keep producing it.

Posted: **19 Aug 2016, 11:37**

HiltonP wrote:
Burgerman wrote:More coloured paint? Yes! (The marketing dept. think we are all low IQ idiots)

John, agree with you 110%, but if you think how many people fall for this rubbish then I can't help but think that maybe the marketing departments are correct in taking us for gullible idiots. For as long as we keep accepting the manufacturers crap they will keep producing it.

Sadly I agree with this, most powerchair users that I know are only interested in how a chair looks and just something to get them from A to B. Never mind how it performs or it's range as they are told by Physios/OT's that's the best they can get. So the majority are unaware that they could have something so much better, eg. a 24v Lithium battery pack would enable them to venture further than their limited Lead batteries, which a few users on here have demostrated.

Steve

Posted: **19 Aug 2016, 15:33**

The lack of knowledge or info or even interest, extends to the UK wheelchair services that assess and supply chairs too. They only know about the things on the spec sheet. Max weight limit. Speed. And of course the thing they went on so many courses for, seating options...

So the public and the OTs have little interest.

Posted: **19 Aug 2016, 15:34**

The lack of knowledge or info or even interest, extends to the UK wheelchair services that assess and supply chairs too. They only know about the things on the spec sheet. Max weight limit. Speed. And of course the thing they went on so many courses for, seating options...

So the public and the OTs have little interest.

Posted: **19 Aug 2016, 15:38**

Take this thread here. Timm posted a pic and some info in response to a question at the top about "when will this tech come to powerchairs". He posted a pic of my 16mph chair and 45 miles range, etc.

There was not a single comment about it. Total silence. They simply don't get it.

http://www.wheelchairjunkie.com/forums/ ... #Post72365

Posted: **19 Aug 2016, 16:35**

Steves; one of the first things that has to be defeated is the power of the funding sources many folks use to buy their Power Chairs! And second is the ignorance of the Air LIne Regulators and any transportation problems users of LiFePO4 batteries find as a problem. Then "MAYBE" we could defend the LiFePO4 battery use in our chairs. WE know they are safe, but they don't and seriously "want" to know they may be wrong in their preconceived notions. That is a steep slope to climb.

Unfortunately, The manufacturer's are correct in their assumption of the general user's stupidity. There are too few who give a damn about the chair that is "purchased for their use" We pretty much have to be careful not to speak/write over the average guy when we try to explain a theory on even this site. Most user's on this site can easily do this, simplify your explanation. Again unfortunately the chair safety folks can easily be talked over as well those Legislator's who write, or vote to initiate those recommended regulations, as law

The other fact is we are so few, for most folks we are just a thorn in the side of the primary purchaser (Insurance funder) Being a thorn we are a financial drain on those sources. So we must defeat our own HP folks who have some preconceived notions that such technology advances are not necessary. People like grandma who is scared of this gadget or Mark Smith who cuts out a significant majority of power chair users as being "unworthy" of his unbiased attention. Something I have ranted about in the past. As long as we all pull in a different direction we will never gain traction in bettering our conveyances. To spite our small numbers, if we all in many Nations can unite all HP persons to head in the same direction we would be quite surprised at the gains that would be made.

Posted: **19 Aug 2016, 17:24**

Lithium batteries permanently fitted are legal for flying today. Those that think otherwise like mark, either cant read or choose to use it as an excuse. They endlessly bring up this small quantity allowed mg of lithium limit or watt hour limits. To legitimise their position. That only applies to REMOVABLE batteries in portable devices...

Here is the relevant part:

Quote by IATA 2016:

Link to current document (RECENTLY UPDATED BUT STILL SAYS THE SAME THING):
http://www.iata.org/publications/Docume ... 1st-ed.pdf

Battery-powered Mobility Aids

Non-spillable batteries (i.e. not lithium ion batteries) power the majority of mobility aids for persons with reduced mobility. But, increasingly, passengers are requesting to travel with mobility aids powered by lithium batteries.

When fitted to a non-collapsible mobility aid, there is no limit on the Watt-hour rating of lithium batteries. Some mobility aids may have lithium batteries with Watt-hour ratings of as much as 700 Wh (or greater).

Therefore, operators will need to make a considered judgment as to whether they wish to carry such devices, taking legislation regarding the accessibility of persons with reduced mobility into account.

The requirements for mobility aids powered by lithium batteries are as follows:
• carriage is subject to approval of the operator;
• batteries and cells must meet all standards of the United Nations Manual of Tests and Criteria;

Operators must verify:

• the battery is securely attached to the mobility aid;
• the battery terminals are protected from short circuits (e.g. by being enclosed within a battery container);
• electrical circuits have been isolated (note: this does not necessarily mean that the battery has to be disconnected);
• carriage must be in such a way that the mobility aid cannot be damaged by the movement of other items in the hold.

Posted: **19 Aug 2016, 22:13**

Has Nandol resolved his battery issues yet?
Why did those LiFePO4 battery issues occur?

I guess that I am like usual confused !

How are 700 Watt Hours calculated? Does that have any relevance in the real world?

Posted: **19 Aug 2016, 23:08**

He is using a tiny 50Ah battery with a BMS.

And has a 190Ah one ready to fit, but its in hong kong...

Posted: **20 Aug 2016, 16:43**

Burgerman wrote:The lack of knowledge or info or even interest, extends to the UK wheelchair services that assess and supply chairs too. They only know about the things on the spec sheet. Max weight limit. Speed. And of course the thing they went on so many courses for, seating options...

So the public and the OTs have little interest.

What I can't seem to understand is that we don't apply the same principles to other products in our household. When we want to purchase a new motor car, or television, or computer, we make an effort to find out something about the product, and how it compares, before we spend our money.

Yet when it comes to wheelchairs, and particularly motorised wheelchairs, we seem to be prepared to accept the lowest common denominator (and take advice from a "dealer" who has little or no interest in providing us with the best product.

Posted: **20 Aug 2016, 17:29**

(and take advice from a "dealer" who has little or no interest in providing us with the best product.

Who probably knows less than you. Other than which he has in stock, which ones he needs to sell more of to get that extra discount, etc.

Sully. Watt hours is more useful than Ah is. At least if you want to compare STORED ENERGY or in the case of an airline the amount of lithium battery...

I will give you an example.

My BM3 chair is 42V and 72Ah (Thats 42V x 72Ah = 3022 Watt Hours)
MY BM2 green chair has 25.6V x 120Ah (Thats 26.6 x 120Ah = 3072 Watt Hours)

So while both batteries are the same physical size, and weight, and almost the same cell count, one is 72Ah, the other is 120Ah but both are the similar 3000 watt hour energy store.

You cannot rate a lead battery as Watt Hours because of Peukert. You get about 40Ah till your chair stops with a MK Lead 73Ah brick. That means 12V x 40Ah = 480 watt hours. 960 Wh for a pair if you run till you stop...

Or consider this...
MK 73Ah battery 15 miles range.
BM3 72Ah battery 45 miles range.
Because its got 3x the Watt Hours! Watt hours is total stored energy and volts don't come into it.

Posted: **20 Aug 2016, 18:08**

Thanks, i guess I'm just kind of stupid when it really come to electricity. I really never studied the measurements of power.

So thanks again.

Posted: **21 Aug 2016, 17:40**

You buy your household electricery in kWh. Thats 1KW like a small 1 bar fire, for 1 hour.

You get 1kw from your 120V supply which means 8.333Amps. Because 8.333 x 120 = 1000 Watts.
We get 1kw from our 240V supply, which means 4.166Amps. Because 4.116 x 240 = 1000 Watts.

So watts is a direct comparable power level. A 1kw heater is 1kw in the US or the UK. Its got the same output. Its got the same power used in 1 hour. 1kwh.

I get between 5 and 17 kwh from my solar panels depending on season every day. You then dont require to know that they work at 31V and 124V DC, And at x Amps. kWh simplifies things!

Posted: **22 Aug 2016, 16:49**

After reading that, I realize I should have put those parts together, I have used those formula's in the past. I just forgot just how it all applies ! Old age?? We old guys can use that excuse for everything including being rude at times. YES 'I" get it.

WheelchairDriver

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