Personal Wheelchair Budgets

[steves1977uk]

If it's supposed to be internal, then how come it's on the internet instead of the NHS's intranet.

Steve

[Burgerman]

As usual with massive beurocratic socialistic enterprises like the NHS those that make the most noise are the only ones that get what they want. What can I say. I am loud. And dont suffer fools at all well. And I never go quietly. I really never cared who I upset. If they are not doing the job properly they are going to regret it. Thats why I just refused a £5380 offer, and sent 5 recorded delivery letters explaing what they did wrong to every part of the system.

Make waves. Big ones. Dont waste time on the WCS themselves as they are just the minions.

[Burgerman]

CCGs should be careful not to exclude unusual requests without examining the proposal on
a case-by-case basis; these may have significant benefits for people's health and
wellbeing. The evaluation showed that personal health budgets worked best where people
had real flexibility over how they could use their budgets. The personal health budget toolkit
includes a number of personal stories, which give a range of ideas of how budgets were
used during the pilot program.
so how come they feel the right to just say no?

I was the pilot program over a decade ago till now.

They dont have a right to say no. IF YOU FORCE THEM to do as you want. But you MUST show that you can make better use of their cash than they can, with better outcomes for yourself - not just clinically. In my case I showed them I can build better chairs, myself, than they could provide at any budget. And so we agreed that they would assess me for my clinical requirements, price up a SUITABLE chair, and give me the money instead. Then I could do what the hell I wanted with it as long as it was spent on chairs one way or another. And so far its worked out great. This time they were slow, unresponsive, and I am arguing for more as they failed to add single post arms, centre power footrest or 4 pole motors in their proposed figure. In spite of my assessement. So I expect that £5380 is going to increase... But not a huge amount. Maybe 6k. But thats enough.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10062

[expresso]

From what it seems - your still the Pilot you seem to be one of the only few that get it funded that way -

if you have it in writing - on the website of the dept. who is giving you the chairs etc, - that would be simple to just show up with the paper in your hand proving it - or if they show up to your home - hand them the paper and demand it that way - period - you have the proof in your hand

[Burgerman]

WCS and myself, have nothing in writing at all.

[expresso]

didnt i read somewhere thats its on there website ? if its on there website - thats in writing - you can just use there own words

[Burgerman]

Theres a main government NHS website. And theres lots of info there.

But each local area has its own "interpretation" usually wildly incorrect, of that. That they try (not) to implement. They hate change. Its a massive socialists useless unresponsive system. You cant walk and go to another wheelchair services. Its not like a competitive industry where you can go deal with a different company. So they have no interest in you. Only coffee and meetings, and doing the same thing as yesterday. Then along comes me. They really dont like me. And thats good. Because if they do like you its because you are letting them walk all over you like they do with 99% of normal people.

[expresso]

true - i am going thru it myself now -

so not much different there from here - same shit - unless you know the facts and can prove them - and willing to do what it takes -

[Burgerman]

Its quite possible to get a personal chair budget, and for a decent spec chair. But it will be half the inflated retail cost. That doesent matter because large discounts, are available. And it gives you flexibility to buy/sell/maintain inc the residual value of your chairs as you own them. In time it becomes possible to build up a small fleet of well maintained chairs that suit different purposes and as backups. But it requires YOU to take charge. And YOU to make them do it properly in the beginning. That means you are going to have to start properly with all the rules and laws, and a deep detailed self assessement with suitable chair that fits and all the prices and prescription forms etc. And expect a big fight. They really dont like change.

[biscuit]

A look at the relevant Statutory Instrument makes me think that as Burgerman says, you must present them with your requirements. If anyone else appoints themselves as your representative, then this has a specific meaning - i.e. either the "eligible person" or that person's "representative" gets to discuss the requirements with wheelchair services. I think. Not 100% sure as it's pretty convoluted.
It seems to me that as long as they don't consider themselves to be the eligible person's representative, you have more say in it. Duke, you are Tina's representative and don't let them tell you otherwise!

[biscuit]

If it's supposed to be internal, then how come it's on the internet instead of the NHS's intranet.

Steve

The law requires that they publicise it.

[duke1]

A look at the relevant Statutory Instrument makes me think that as Burgerman says, you must present them with your requirements. If anyone else appoints themselves as your representative, then this has a specific meaning - i.e. either the "eligible person" or that person's "representative" gets to discuss the requirements with wheelchair services. I think. Not 100% sure as it's pretty convoluted.
It seems to me that as long as they don't consider themselves to be the eligible person's representative, you have more say in it. Duke, you are Tina's representative and don't let them tell you otherwise!

hi yes i realise its internal document but imo its important to know the rules they are meant to employ,
and yes every requirement of the chair has to have a medical or holistic reason backed up by doctor and if you have one an ot or physio can add input as to why you need a particular thing
,ie a non medical reason for requiring lift is so it allows safe access to the cooker hob and different heights of shelves cupboards etc in the kitchen and also allows independent shopping,tilt and recline to relieve pressure sores,pneumatic tyres due to spinal stenosis and nerve damage,so a clear reason backed up by medical pros.
also take time to reach out to others in your area and apply at the same time to same ccg atm 5 people in my little area applied same time as myself also do not be afraid to enlist your local mp and any other folk whom have any dealings with medically,main thing is not giving up and taking no for an answer until they do there job properly or else they continue to fake doing a proper job and get away with nothing changing for the better,not having that.
we just need the revised assessment result quick and by law there meant to do the budget from the time you apply within 10 weeks,try nearly 2.5 yrs so far a year of which they spent denying the pwb even existed outside a pilot prog and we have quite literally had to make them do it,maybe we need a thread here showing who manages a pwb where and how type thing?
i can see me having to go out and buy tinas indoor comfy chair if they take much longer poor moo is bouncing of the walls to get around now and keeps hurting herself,peace

[expresso]

even after you get all the correct documents - they can still and do find a reason or no reason that makes no sense to deny something - insurance depending is all the same - deny first - most of the times -

[biscuit]

Yes, best know the law and try not to get bogged down with understanding their internal documents of how they want to obey the law while being as unhelpful as possible! The SIs are short and sweet, leaving plenty of room for interpretation. But they are the law.

[duke1]

hi all well the saga of our fight to get a properly implemented pwb continues like some bizzare comedy scetch though less funny!
having done all the self assessment 3 wcs assessments over a 2 yr period,2 unsuitable by a long mile chairs returned to wcs ,many emails,letters,a recent reassessment in which i went through in minute detail the reasons the wcs chairs where wrong and not even a little but i swear if you randomly hit the buy it now button on ebay for powerchairs your far more likely to get something usable than what they send!
so a couple of days ago i get a letter from wcs re the pwb bear in mind the last chair they sent was on there budget as 4.5k to which was added the pneumatic tyres and tilt electric legrests etc so logic says it costs more? no offer is £2730 plus £819 for 5 yrs repairs!
with a vicair 10 cushion supplied by wcs.
they say an invacare bora with laguna backrest,headrest,tilt in space seating,no mention of pneumatic tyres the no1 item on the list,the list they have in triplicate both via email and hard copy! no mention of the electric footrest despite both agreeing the need.
so now i been on the phone this morning to wcs and am awaiting a call back to try get some damn sense out of someone and all i want them to do is now is give me the damn freedom to buy a used chair which i have found several but they insist on being involved and refuse to allow me to use the budget in a far more sensible manner,if no call today tomorrow morning im going on the war path,first stop nhs complaints,2nd stop my mp,3rd stop sir simon stevens personal secretary,
the chair i seen is from same seller as bm just bought from trading standards approved and chair has 12 mth warranty and is right all bar changing footrests,and is near half the price of a useless nhs chair!
so how can they refuse? easily it seems if the chair is less than there budget they keep the excess!which in this case is a good few £100, but i am not having that
i shall update if i get anywhere,im only bothering now because they cant do there job,right.
need to go bang my head on a wall must be meds time

[steves1977uk]

Duke, do your WCS know the Bora is a discontinued product?... https://www.invacare.co.uk/invacare-bor ... a-70boraen

Unless they keep a few in their stockroom like Norwich WCS does.

Steve

[Burgerman]

And 2 pole, small battery, nose heavy, and uses linx. And 4mph and no lights.

Beats me how they can consider that safe. I lost count of the times daft blind old women did their best to reverse over me in dark winter car parks, etc.

No speed to escape, no lights and sat low down so they dont see you, and its a disaster simply waiting to happen. Same thing on dark streets, crossing the 5 lane junction outside my house, or trying to see where you are going in an unlit area.

[expresso]

Over here in the states. If insurance denies my chair I have the right to appeal it. If they still deny it. I then have the right to a fair hearing where u got to court and make ur case for the chair and parts extra. Then the jude decides the outcome. U guys can't do that there ? I had to do it. And finally I won the case and judge ordered insurance to pay took about a year. U just have an appeal process there also ?

[Burgerman]

U just have an appeal process there also ?

Theres official ways to argue. And lose. Because time... Or just do it my way...

[expresso]

So you have a way to appeal ? but when does it end - who decides the outcome of your appeals ?

[duke1]

So you have a way to appeal ? but when does it end - who decides the outcome of your appeals ?

we do but its a right pain and they often if you threaten/harrass them enough relent before an appeal here is link to the guidelines there meant to follow but in practice each authority make up there own rules,
https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/u ... udgets.pdf
longwinded though
i got no phone call back today but an email saying they are trying to find a way to accomadate our request and its now in the hands of the manager and will be in touch as soon as they have an answer,so we wait longer and im sure all this is so folk just give up and take the crap there given,peace

[expresso]

Yes is agree they make u want to give up. Over here if u get Denied. U have the right to apeal u just fill it out and send it back to them. If they deny again like they did me. Then I go to the courts Andet them decide. Takes time for the courts but at least we can do that and have time to do it. Like 90 days or 60. Not sure I put in same day I am denied I apeal it then they have to answer if they don't the courts will force them to

[Burgerman]

They do that to me. Right now I gave them their quote for 53xx back And explained why thats inadequate in huge detail. And showed them which bits of that offer ignored my self assessement. I sent along with that the reciept for two powerchairs, and a stack of parts, tyres, etc with it.

And they have been two weeks so far and its all gone quiet. They are going to get a few letters and calls this week. To all their managers.

It works in the end.

[duke1]

Yes is agree they make u want to give up. Over here if u get Denied. U have the right to apeal u just fill it out and send it back to them. If they deny again like they did me. Then I go to the courts Andet them decide. Takes time for the courts but at least we can do that and have time to do it. Like 90 days or 60. Not sure I put in same day I am denied I apeal it then they have to answer if they don't the courts will force them to

hi i was just going through the regs again and found this bit,
Therefore, at present where a direct payment is requested it would either need to
meet the whole cost of the wheelchair (which may be appropriate as part of an NHS
continuing healthcare package) or be part of an integrated package of care and
clearly able to demonstrate the health and wellbeing outcome which required a
contribution via a separately commissioned service.
this is opposite of what the wcs tell you,they say they are not allowed to give a direct payment.,adds to the next email/letter! never give up never surrender

[Burgerman]

Why not, thats how mine is paid. Stop listening to them And TELL them! They are clueless. I suspect you are frightened of upsetting the "nice ladies"... Do everything by recorded delivery letter to the WCS manager, as well as the hospital administrators.

This shouldnt be nessassary but it is. They are an institution. They are like any socialist thing. Resistant to change. Resistant to anything. And used to people accepting their decisions. When they dont they think YOU are the problem. They hide behind panels, and nobody wants to accept any responsibiity for anything. It just gets pushed along to someone else who never bothers to look at it as its too hard.

We agreed at my house that I could get a better outcome for ME if I avoided the WCS like the plague and bought, built, maintained, and dealt with my own chairs. And I proved it to them. And sent WCS off with their tail between their legs at that meeting. So they pay me. I do as I choose. Like the "used" but never actually used new chair on eBay. 3 months old never been driven other than to test. A 12.5K chair with every expensive option inc 6mph and lights. for 4400. With a centre power footrest fitted too. All exactly what the wheelchair services say they wont do. They will if you MAKE them and thats what this budget is for.

[stevelawiw]

@Duke1

this is opposite of what the wcs tell you,they say they are not allowed to give a direct payment.

I just got the exact same response from my WCS

the PWB is not designed or intended to be provided as a cash sum, the monies are directed only in form of voucher to an approved supplier for a wheelchair that meets all MHRA and British safety standards.

Also,

You have advised there are areas in the UK that are providing PWB in this manner, however, this does not have any influence on the above decision

[Burgerman]

Thats the voucher scheme...

[stevelawiw]

I know. I'ts so annoying that we have to fight these battles that should not have to be fought, and also how dare they vomit out another voucher scheme and call it a PWB, surely the clue is in the B for Budget in the title dammit.

[Burgerman]

Ask them how it differes. Because the two are running alongside each other...

[segreen]

Seems like you all pissing in the wind with WCS. There's only John that gets his own budget and in cash and every 3-years. No one else does. It's a voucher and very 5-years for everyone. I wouldn't mind seeing Johns offer in writing if only to substantiate his claims.