PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Roadrunner » 22 Mar 2021, 10:44

A litte info:
You can't see the changes in the generic software - but that doesn't mean that it's not there, and you can write the changes to the controller.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby rover220 » 22 Mar 2021, 10:48

Roadrunner wrote:A litte info:
You can't see the changes in the generic software - but that doesn't mean that it's not there, and you can write the changes to the controller.


Yeah I get that, the 2 second functions for the 4 soft keys work but none of the second functions under the assign buttons header have any effect.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Roadrunner » 22 Mar 2021, 13:31

I see what you mean.
I tried a different approach on another chair.
Programmed the chair with the Salsa-M 2mph file using the Permobil (sorry for cursing) dealer software.
Then programmed the chair with its original software using the Sunrise oem.
And then both the assignable buttons and the softkeys works.

You could try this :)

You have to do some on/off cycles when the program ask you to.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby rover220 » 22 Mar 2021, 13:39

Roadrunner wrote:I see what you mean.
I tried a different approach on another chair.
Programmed the chair with the Salsa-M 2mph file using the Permobil (sorry for cursing) dealer software.
Then programmed the chair with its original software using the Sunrise oem.
And then both the assignable buttons and the softkeys works.

You could try this :)

You have to do some on/off cycles when the program ask you to.


Will try some more. Thanks again.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 22 Mar 2021, 13:49

The main interesting thing I came away with from this post was this: Theres a 2mph Salsa? czy
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby rover220 » 22 Mar 2021, 13:52

Burgerman wrote:The main interesting thing I came away with from this post was this: Theres a 2mph Salsa? czy


:lol:
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby steves1977uk » 22 Mar 2021, 14:31

You'd get overtaken by a tortoise! :lol: czy

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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby MarkFox » 22 Mar 2021, 15:13

Fantastically useful thread. I'd already started cupping the pod with my hand independently before finding the post, but the programming settings make a huge difference.

Can't have the pod positioned inboard personally - due to my condition that would cripple my arm/hand within the first half hour in the chair, so I keep it in line with the arm rest which allows me to use it just as smoothly since that lines up more naturally with where my tendons want to pull my arm. Slightly different variation of the joystick manipulation than what's in the video - again due to my condition, but no loss of control as it's a similar enough grip, just adjusted to accommodate my joints. Stick rests part way into the "V" between my thumb and fore-finger, and lets me handle delicate or hard turns equally well & speed adjustments without needing to think about them through the adjustment of those two digits (all my tendons are the wrong length, which pretty much means that what's natural for most people is severely uncomfortable at best for me.)

It's entirely possible that an even better setup could be achieved that still fits the limits of my condition, but so far the above is the best I've found. I fully agree that for anyone without my weird joints that BM's pod position would be the optimal one.

BM - Should I ever happen to run into you at some future point, I'd more than welcome you to cast an eye over my setup and see if you can optimise it any better for my circumstances/limitations.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby ex-Gooserider » 23 Mar 2021, 02:19

MarkFox wrote:Fantastically useful thread. I'd already started cupping the pod with my hand independently before finding the post, but the programming settings make a huge difference.

Can't have the pod positioned inboard personally - due to my condition that would cripple my arm/hand within the first half hour in the chair, so I keep it in line with the arm rest which allows me to use it just as smoothly since that lines up more naturally with where my tendons want to pull my arm. Slightly different variation of the joystick manipulation than what's in the video - again due to my condition, but no loss of control as it's a similar enough grip, just adjusted to accommodate my joints. Stick rests part way into the "V" between my thumb and fore-finger, and lets me handle delicate or hard turns equally well & speed adjustments without needing to think about them through the adjustment of those two digits (all my tendons are the wrong length, which pretty much means that what's natural for most people is severely uncomfortable at best for me.)

It's entirely possible that an even better setup could be achieved that still fits the limits of my condition, but so far the above is the best I've found. I fully agree that for anyone without my weird joints that BM's pod position would be the optimal one.

BM - Should I ever happen to run into you at some future point, I'd more than welcome you to cast an eye over my setup and see if you can optimise it any better for my circumstances/limitations.


BM and I have gone back and forth a bit on this topic, and you are showing what I've been saying, namely that we are all different in our functions and abilities, And that while his concepts of how to work a joystick by supporting as much of the arm and hand as possible so that you are only moving what is actually controlling the chair are spot on, just HOW one positions the joystick and manipulate it will be different for each of us...

I personally have the pod extending straight forward from the left end of my armrest, and that is essentially where my hand ends up sitting in a relaxed position, so my palm is on the end of the armrest pad, and I'm cupping the side of the pod with my lower three fingers and moving the stick (which has no knob) between my thumb and forefinger... Works well for me, but others might well prefer different setups.

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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby MarkFox » 24 Mar 2021, 14:56

Mine is usually as shown in the attached picture, and I can steer with pinpoint accuracy. I'll make slight variations to accommodate muscle issues on rare occasions, but this is what works 99% of the time. (Here I was using an empty train carriage as an obstacle course to test my new control settings on a new control module)

It's like handwriting - everyone holds pens/pencils slightly differently, but there's multiple ways to have good handwriting. Ditto driving a car, people adjust to what's comfortable and safest for the combination of their body and the car's design.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 24 Mar 2021, 15:17

Watch my hand only! The vid was demonstrating turn acceleration/deceleration, ignore that for now!

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/control.mp4 The palm + forefingers is the reference position. THIS is what matters. plus no wobbly control pods wobbly arms, or incorrect pod height etc. Yours appears a little low to me. And no gap between arm top and joystick. Arm top alone needs moving back, to give a gap if joystick remains in the correct place?
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby MarkFox » 24 Mar 2021, 15:28

Burgerman wrote:Watch my hand only! The vid was demonstrating turn acceleration/deceleration, ignore that for now!

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/control.mp4 The palm + forefingers is the reference position. THIS is what matters. plus no wobbly control pods wobbly arms, or incorrect pod height etc. Yours appears a little low to me. And no gap between arm top and joystick. Arm top alone needs moving back, to give a gap if joystick remains in the correct place?


I've watched that video - as I said in my previous post, if I followed your positioning it'd lead to my joints locking in dangerous way, and once they lock it's a trip to the hospital & IV muscle relaxants to fix it.

The pod is stable, my arm is rock stable relative to the pod and in the most natural position for my joints, and I can control the chair accurately at both high speed, and in tight environments.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 24 Mar 2021, 15:30

I didnt post for you really,, just for others to show importance. I see most people while out and about steering like its a pudding.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby MarkFox » 24 Mar 2021, 15:32

Fair enough - for reference this controller came programmed with a turn acceleration of 10%! Would have been easier to get out and push it at those settings.

Concrete would have been easier to steer.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 24 Mar 2021, 16:23

Yes. Turn acceleration, turn deceleration are delays. When set low, then it takes a week for te chair to get to its full turn rate. And worse it keeps turnig long after you centre the joystic. Its dangerous! Yet they all get delivered that way.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby MarkFox » 24 Mar 2021, 18:14

I've gotten it tuned to roughly the same settings you're using now. The only thing I haven't been able to fix is the damned beep volume when I toggle the lights (or the startup beep beep it makes)

Adjusting the beep volume in the Mobility Programmer software fixed the volume on the speed buttons, but nothing else. Irritating, but I can live with that. (although I wonder if I could wire a resistor in series with the speaker to reduce the volume that way)
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 24 Mar 2021, 19:45

Blutac.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby MarkFox » 24 Mar 2021, 20:39

I hadn't even considered that - WAY easier than my ideas. Thank you!
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby biscuit » 28 Mar 2021, 10:53

as shown in the attached picture, and I can steer with pinpoint accuracy. I'll make slight variations to accommodate muscle issues on rare occasions, but this is what works 99% of the time

Thanks for the photo, Mark. That's the way I hold the joystick too, also with the js in the crook of my thumb. This way does not bend the wrists, keeps the hand relaxed (not dancing all over) yet steady, and as you say steering is pinpoint accurate.

Different ways for different people.

I think I programmed the beeping out too - certainly I did on my little chair's vsi, by setting the beeping to zero iirc. So I didn't need to implement the bluetack fix.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby MarkFox » 29 Mar 2021, 19:19

biscuit wrote:
I think I programmed the beeping out too - certainly I did on my little chair's vsi, by setting the beeping to zero iirc. So I didn't need to implement the bluetack fix.


Annoyingly the VR2 volume only applies to the speed buttons, it appears that the light controls are hardcoded to always be set to 10. My newVSI on my other chair behaves the same as yours - volume applies to everything.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby ex-Gooserider » 30 Mar 2021, 02:47

MarkFox wrote:I've gotten it tuned to roughly the same settings you're using now. The only thing I haven't been able to fix is the damned beep volume when I toggle the lights (or the startup beep beep it makes)

Adjusting the beep volume in the Mobility Programmer software fixed the volume on the speed buttons, but nothing else. Irritating, but I can live with that. (although I wonder if I could wire a resistor in series with the speaker to reduce the volume that way)


:hammer or Diagonal Cutters.... (aka 'dikes')

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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby woodygb » 30 Mar 2021, 09:53

The VR2's buzzers is soldered directly to the main board.

Do as B.M. suggests and stuff some blue tack up into the tapered hole that is directly in front of the charging port.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Dan » 29 Apr 2021, 14:15

Its worth getting a R-Net dongle just to get rid of the button beep. I also turned on the OBP.

Is there any way to see the total mileage on a R-Net controller with the dongle? Or hours used?
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 29 Apr 2021, 17:08

Yes. Look at and try all th options on top like diagnostics etc.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Oracle » 30 Apr 2021, 17:04

My cable arrived from Woodygb and I spent a few hours prograamming my Jazzy 6 ultra. Now everything is linear and proportional. Best ride ever!
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Oracle » 01 May 2021, 08:01

Burgerman wrote:If you program a chair to properly, instantly, and proportionally react to the stick, then technique is everything. If you are doing what I think you are, like most others also do, theres no way on earth that you can ever control the chair without thinking its jumpy... Its not. Its doing what the stick tells it, when you tell it.

But by holding it how you do, your arm moves in relation to the pod as you accelerate with pulls it back again, which pushes it forwards again, rinse and repeat... So you are commanding the jumps! You want control, you must have the correct holding technique.

Imagine drawing a neat square on a sheet of paper mounted on a clipboard. You are a passenger in a car on a very bumpy road.
You have 2 methods.
1. You hold only the pen end with your fingers and the page is fixed to the car.
2. You hold the pen properly, and place your hand down on the page for stability as normal.

Which gives a good square? And which is nearly impossible?

//////////////////


Repeated from post 1 since I cannot stress how important this is!!!

IMPORTANT. Preliminary basic 101.
If you want to re-program a chair to steer and drive accurately and naturally with the sort of easy control that is just transparent, you never even think about control, then the following preliminary must be true also. Because after correct programming the joystick will change from a pudding stirrer that you just mash about and wait and hope, to a fully proportional control with no turning (or turn stop) delays. The chair will turn when told, and stop turning when told, at the exact rate and time you decide by exactly how much stick you give it. If you have poor hand control, we will come to that later. With R-Net some of this can be done with Dealer level tools that your tech will have. But not all, and with settings limits/walls. So ideally you will need OEM level access.

So:
1. It HELPS if you have good hand and finger movement, and good eye / hand coordination.

2. Its ESSENTIAL that the joystick is mounted SOLIDLY with no wobbles or movement in relation to the chair.

3. Its also essential that the joystick is positioned correctly. Most are way too low, and too outboard. ***


*** It needs to be slightly inboard of the chair arm centre-line, not too much reach, and the body of the joystick housing needs to be slightly higher than the arm top. So that your hand and at least the two (or three) lower fingers and part of the hand can CUP the outer side of the Joystick body. IN COMFORT! While leaving your stablised hands thumb and forefinger to operate the joystick.

To achieve this may need a little attention from a tech with a drill, a few spacers, some reconfiguration of the arm, a better swingaway as most are frankly crap and also wobble, but its IMPORTANT! Dont allow the tech to tell you its OK. Its not! It must be correct. You just cannot drive a chair thats correctly programmed unless your hand can cup the solidly mounted, correctly positioned joystick in comfort. What will NEVER work is resting your arm on the chairs arm top, and just holding the joystick with your fingers -- which I see all the time.


IT MATTERS!!!


Because my hands tremble I have found the best way for me is to rest my arm and "cuddle" the joystick with my forefinger and thumb closed around the joystick with my hand wrapped around the joystick shroud. Very stable joystick control.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 01 May 2021, 10:06

Whatever works for you. As long as you have a stable reference base. A freind has hands like you, he shakes, (add damping, reduce turn speeds - not turn acceleration or turn deceleration) and has bad hand control. He has a velcro wrist band that attaches to a 2 inch velcro patch on the arm top. That way he gets good control.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby wchl25 » 05 Jun 2021, 17:13

I need some help please.

Yesterday I was out doing some yard work in my backup chair. Before I got back in my main chair (Amy systems all-track R3) I tilted the seat up to look at something underneath it, and it won't come back down. There is only one limit switch on the tilt which is working correctly. I tried putting power directly to the tilt motor just to get it down so I could use the chair but it won't move at all. So i think the tilt motor is dead. I'm going to take the motor out so I can put the seat down and use the chair until I can get a replacement.

My question is, how do I disable the seating module in the programming software so the chair will drive?
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 05 Jun 2021, 18:19

Are you getting an error? With motor disconected. Or module bus cable unplugged?
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby wchl25 » 05 Jun 2021, 23:09

Burgerman wrote:Are you getting an error? With motor disconected. Or module bus cable unplugged?



There was no error, but I figured it out. The tilt motor was replaced about a month ago and the technician didn't leave enough slack on the wire. So when I tilted it all the way up yesterday it literally pulled the wires out of the plug. I was going to remove the motor and when I pulled the wires out from under the seat the plug fell off. So I reattached them to the plug and it worked.

Thanks for the response!
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