Permobil m3 Ask about height adjustment.

[shirley_hkg]

3. I have a dealer level RNet dongle and have made some changes to the wheelchair's "programming" (really, just modifying parameters). Due to my medical issues, I need a wheelchair that steers like a stock Permobil (or other manufacturer). For reference, I used to fly RC model airplanes and know what Burgerman recommends would be GREAT for someone with better hand control. But I don't have that hand control, so I need something that drives a bit sluggish.

In your case, I'd rather decrease the RESPONSE , and/or increase the TREMOR DAMPEN , for a smoother control .

[Burgerman]

You INCREASE turn accel. And turn DEceleration and min turn deceleration and min turn accel. To remove the 4 delays in response. To maximum. 100. Esp the turn deceleration settings or the chair KEEPS turning long after you told it to stop doing so. NOBODY wants that!

You then DECREASE turn speed, and minimum turn speed, to reduce the sensitivity. To whatever level your hand capability can deal with. Even if its way too insensitive to begin with, start very low. And add tremor damping to dampen response around neutral when / if you shake.

The result is not a "sensitive" jumpy chair at all. Quite the opposite. HOWEVER IT IS UTTERLY PREDICTABLE, properly controllable, accurate like a biro, and easy to drive chair thats better for everyyone to drive.

Do NOT try his with a GYRO enabled and so not applicable to front drive at all. Those never can steer properly. Sorry.

[wes4dbt]

Well, I have decided to put the breaks on this for a while.

But I think some good has come out of this discussion. It's got me motivated to do more research and start the process of maybe getting a new chair through my insurance. Also, I have found local DME places that work on Permobil chairs if I do decide to go that route.

Thanks

[slomobile]

Ford vs Chevy
Skiing vs Snowboarding
Mac vs PC

FYI the correct answers are Honda, Toboggan, ARM64 Haiku, Permobil, MiniDisc, Scientology, Goat Yoga, Duracell, North Carolina BBQ, and Moto Guzzi.

[Burgerman]

Scientology?

Religion

[Jay_x]

NC BBQ? with their vinegar sauce? no way man.

[slomobile]

Scientology?

Religion

Yes, Scientology. Its a personal choice.

What is your favorite religion to make fun of?
I said these are the answers. Now you know one of the questions.

[Burgerman]

Well with respect most religion is simple brainwashing. Its all nonsense. But scientology isnt just nonsense its truly barking as well. So quite!

Moto guzzi... I had one for a week. Its a tractor. Was that also one of the making fun things? I hope so...

Whats goat yoga?

[slomobile]

Moto Guzzi is not a joke. Well... it is, but I actually have one I like. A 2000 Jackal. A parts bin bike made from leftovers as the company was being sold. I am reverting mine back to its tractor origin for yard work and recreation. Its a reliable air cooled motor, a beautiful tank, and the rest is open for reinterpretation.

I actually like vinegary BBQ and hot sauce, but Kraft barbeque sauce is the best IMO. It is possible to maintain contradictory opinions. North Carolina BBQ is what I prefer at competitions because they take great care to treat the meat right and use the vinegar to break it down. But as a dipping sauce, or for anything quick, the consistency of Kraft is welcome.

Goat Yoga is a real thing practiced in fancy big city studios and a mom and pop farm near my house. Its Yoga. You move around and stretch a bit, hold a pose, and the goats climb on you. Its one way to work out muscle knots I cant reach and get the equivalent of a bad massage from farm animals.

[Swan T.W.]

From raising a seat to goat yoga and barbeque sauce, you got to love it.I prefer Bulls Eye barbeque sauce.

[wes4dbt]

From raising a seat to goat yoga and barbeque sauce, you got to love it.I prefer Bulls Eye barbeque sauce.

Actually it was about lowering the seat height. But it's all good. lol

As for going thru my insurance and getting a new chair, having seconds thoughts. They wont pay for an elevating seat. This is a feature I absolutely want. So my cost is going to be 20% the price of the chair plus the price of the elevator.

Permobil elevator price is $3,700, plus you must also get the tilt option and that's mega bucks, but I might be able to get that Ok'd by the insurance.

Quantum and Quickie elevator price is @ $2,800.

I think Quickie might be a no go, the seat elevator spec says "No drive elevated". Not that I want to drive around with the seat elevated but many times you elevate the chair and then adjust your position. Also, the Quickie has a 23.5" turning radius, the Permobil and Quantum have a 20.5" radius. The down side of the Quantum is the NF22 batteries but I really don't see that as an issue. I don't go long distances anymore, my current chair has 40aH batteries and it hasn't been a problem since I got a set of MK's and the proper charger. I had 22's in another chair and distance was never a problem.

Anyway, its sounds like a new chair with the functions I want is going to be 7-10K.

[Jay_x]

why won't they pay for elevator?

[Burgerman]

think Quickie might be a no go, the seat elevator spec says "No drive elevated". Not that I want to drive around with the seat elevated but many times you elevate the chair and then adjust your position.

Unless you have an OEM programmer. And then any chair with the exception of permobil, can pe programmed to go any speed you prefer whle elevated. In around 1 minute.

[wes4dbt]

why won't they pay for elevator?

Yeah, that's what the DME supplier said. Plus I've heard the same thing on various other sites so that doesn't surprise me. I'm a little surprised at the cost but not really. DME is always extremely over priced.

[FrontierNZ]

Interesting thread,

Where I live in the lower part of the South Island of New Zealand about a block away is the repair agent for all the wheelchair's in our region. They are a permobil agents. From what I understand they needed specific training regarding elements of programming. In New Zealand this brand is considered a real premium brand and is very hard to get if you are government funded for your wheelchair purchase. I must admit I'm just curious to try one, because it appears many people in the states have this brand.

Like anything else it's repair depends on specific knowledge, but there may be a higher learning curve with one of these. It all depends on knowledge and familiarity with the Permobil brand I think and training, when anything is modified it tends to increase the complexity, the more features something has the more complex it will inherently be.

At the end of the day, we just need our wheelchairs to work reliably regardless of the brand!

[Burgerman]

Like anything else it's repair depends on specific knowledge, but there may be a higher learning curve with one of these.

Its not about knowledge. Well it is, but its also about the fact that with any other chair I can buy an OEM programmer from the programmer manyfacturer. Or from the chair manufacturer. Or eBay. Everything interchangable across manufacturers. So prices and availability is way cheaper and easier. With permobil they substitute many of the generic R-Net parts for e.g inc stability modules, gyro, seating and lighting, and switchbox, and even make cheapened joysticks. Theres parts are not plug and play across any other manufacturer. And are the parts that seem to fail. Your one stop shop for these is permobil £££. Worse to adjust or configure anything that needs an OEM level programmer, which it easy with every other brand, is not possible with permobil. And even generic dealer programmers sometimes dont work and changes cannot be written because of firmware differences. So it all becomes an expensive lottery if/when it goes wrong. But as long as YOU are not the one paying its no problem. Till they start swapping out parts in an attempt to fix something$$$£££... And it doesent! It seems in many cases on this forum they cant figure out their own stuff.

[slomobile]

to adjust or configure anything that needs an OEM level programmer, which it easy with every other brand, is not possible with permobil. And even generic dealer programmers sometimes dont work and changes cannot be written because of firmware differences.

I have a Permobil M3 and I'm about to buy an OEM R-net dongle to see whatever there is to see and adjust what I can. It would be helpful to me if you can provide specifics about the circumstances where OEM programming failed.
All Permobil documentation I've seen references dealer dongle, never OEM. Are OEM programmers specifically blocked on Permobil? Or do they just do the exact same thing as dealer dongles do? If the former, I'll do something else, I have no interest in owning a dealer dongle. If the latter, I'll still get OEM to help local folks with different chairs.
I suspect when you attempted to program Permobil, you used the Sunrise R-net software? Have you (or anyone else here) ever tried it with the Permobil R-net software? https://www.permobil.com/us/support/dri ... d-software
Power Wheelchairs
Permobil
General
PC Programmer (ver 6.1.5) RNET Programming Drivers

[Burgerman]

Are OEM programmers specifically blocked on Permobil?

Because permobil use their own seating, lighting, stability and gyro and sometimes own joysticks, and switch box interface/modules the generic or sunrise etc OEM software is unable to talk to them or configure any of that stuff. Including many of the drive speed parameters as its all related to their gyro systems.

So no the generic or sunrise OEM software will connect fine. You will be missing much of the menu stuff as it will be missing (and some needs some more software called wheelchair builder which of which they have their own version again. And according to rover200 who is a tech sometimes you cannot upload any changes at all if the firmware version doesent want you to...

And no the permobil OEM version you need to get over all this stuff is not available. Even to their own techs. So theres many things they cant adjust in the feild or problem find/fix so they just replace sub assemblies till they find out what causes the errors/problems.

The software you link to is the freely available dealer permobil version. So thats not much use. It allows you to do a few basic things that a dealer is allowed to play with. Or an end user.

[ex-Gooserider]

According to the RESNA emails I get, CURRENT Medicare rules mostly don't allow for seat elevators or standing, at least not without major battles. However they are supposedly currently considering a rule change that would let them be covered... The decision was supposed to have been made early this Summer, but because of the delays in Sleepy Joe appointing a new head of Medicare things have been delayed, but a decision is expected "Real Soon Now"

Since most US insurance follows Medicare policies to a large degree, if Medicare DOES decide to cover them, the rest will probably follow...

ex-Gooserider