R-net

[Burgerman]

I am converting all my old Pilot Plus chairs to R-Net.
And any future chairs.
Right now the R-Net system is the best. Its the most developed, easy to get parts, and relatively easy to get programmers to OEM level.
With by far the best and most complete configuration settings and flexibility.

So since I seem to need tilt at very least to prevent sores, and preferably recline too. Well you may as well go the whole hog, and have power footrests and a lift too. In for a pound as they say.


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Thats was the reason for buying my salsa powerchair complete, and adapting it a little so it works properly!!!
See: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7455&start=600#p122818
Be sure to read the first post before looking at the pretty pictures as the devil is always in the details.
It NOW works well, and is nothing like my usual short, sharp, light chairs.
*********


Back to R-net. They introduced a new joystick with bright clear large graphics. Its got a metal case/chassis. Its big, which annoys but if you are going to have a lot of seating options, then its a royal pain figuring out whats going on without a screen you can see clearly outdoors.
So I bought a spare one one these new for £125 : (EDIT, now have 3!)

I then bought a R-Net 120 Power Module (NOT the 60, 80, 90A ones) on eBay US site for £53 + 45 delivery... (EDIT Now have 3 of these)

I then bought a full house Seating and lighting module in the UK for an even sillier price. I wont say how much because it will make a dealer cry. (EDIT, also now have two)

These are available in 2, 4, 6, and apparently 8 channels, + lights. (never saw an 8 channel version). This does 6. Its labled ISM-6. So lighting, and every seating option reqiuired. MOST are ism-6. Some are less, if theres only say tilt and recline.

Complete with a loom and connections for Lift, Tilt, Recline, L-Footrest, R-footrest so I can fit a salsa style seating lift / recline module to my BM1 chair. At least thats what I think I will do with it.

Full R-Net top of range kit, best of everything for £268 delivered. Amazing really. All 3 expensive bits that someone like permobil would sell for literally many thousands. In fact some of it IS permobil... Like this seating lighting module inc wires. At least I think it is. May be Sunrise.

Now need motor, battery connectors, and 2 bus cables. Which should be soon. Who says hi end gear to build a mega chair has to be expensive? And of course I already have an OEM programmer. (EDIT now have a bunch as they appeared on eBay etc)

So this is EVERYTHING needed for a chair with every possible seating option, best highest power 120A controller, and highest quality BRIGHT CLEAR METAL joystick. Everything powered covered! This is the most expensive system you can get on a powerchair.

[steves1977uk]

I have 2 120A R-Net PMs, both off Permobil chairs. Guess I should swap my 100A Pilot+ soon.

Steve

[Gnomatic]

I could have got that joystick for the chair I just got, but declined to get it. Too big and bulky and not easy for my club hands to use. I went with this one.



My new chair has power tilt/recline/elevate/legs/lights/retractable docking pin. So six power options. The part of the chair lights up on the joystick to the corresponding mode. But most importantly the joystick fits in my hand much better and the buttons are much easier (for me) to operate than the big LCD R-net joysticks.

Of course this will very user by user.

[Burgerman]

The ism-6 will do six actuators and lights/indicators/horn.

[rover220]

your ism wiring is sunrise looking at the pics

[Scooterman]

It works well, and is nothing like my usual short, sharp, light chairs. Different animal altogether. Worse in so many ways, but my pressure sores prefer it.

With the chair's weight + your weight, how does the salsa handle outdoors BM?

[Burgerman]

Well an old BM2 will go up the pub ramp easily with control with a 100A controller. And the salsa will not go up at all with a 120A controller and 6mph 4 pole motors. So its about two thirds as good on a steep ramp. And thats due to a 90GK weight difference... And the chair is wider and longer than my BM2/BM2.5/BM3 chairs, so indoors its a little less useful. But outdoors its much the same on pavements. Smoother actually with the 120/70-8 tyres and suspension. A little tiny bit faster than stock but not much, (tyres and increase motor volts) same sort of steering (a little less instant and thats because of very heavy chair). And the weight eats more battery.

Not tried it off road as I just started getting up for a few hours about 4 days a week. And no dog! And I dont want to get it dirty yet! (OCD) but with all that seating weight, and me higher, and more nose heavy it wont be great. But dog is gone now. So no real need. Why more nose heavy?
Because it sits you higher than the BM chairs. Not much, but it means that with the heavy seating and me 1 inch higher too, it would become a liability on slopes, if the seating was moved back further. Also, with the seating in the position shown below, on LEVEL ground its already close to tipping back! Hence lifting legs too. First. Its a long way to fall on your head. Also even when lowered, that seating rocks and moves around a bit, so the chair feels kind of loose! But every chair I ever tried with seat lift etc did. You just need to ignore it and respect the extra mass.

The thing is I resisted all this seating malarky because of the ebove issues, as it just didnt suit my wheelies, leaping off curbs, off road with dog etc. But I now NEED it for pressure ulcer reasons. So I use the salsa if theres going to be a long time where I cant get onto my bed and give my backside a rest. I can basically tilt/recline/and lift legs for balance and de-swelling too.

I didnt NEED the lift for that. But there is always 1001 things that I cant do like reach stuff on a shelf. Or use a microfible cloth to clean the top half of my van. So I do those things when in the salsa. When driving, or going out for 5 or 6 hours only I still prefer my lighter more manoeverable chairs. Also the lift is fun in a pub as I can do this at the bar with a ! Comedy value. Once then bored with it.

[Burgerman]

your ism wiring is sunrise looking at the pics

Could well be. Although he said permobil. But that was in the title so may be just search bait. UK source. Not that US guy that the other bits came from. The inhibit bits look the same. And it came with a alloy flat mounting bracket not shown.

In a month or two I will be looking for a sunrise seat, lift tilt recline unit, if you find one! Missed one on ebay recently due to a shortage of cash...

Any sign of the the bus cables? Looking forwards to testing my new permobil 120A power module to see if its been permobiled... I suspect there wont be an issue. If there is then I am after an OEM permobil programmer or it will go on the bay. Need to make a spare chair that saves my bum. Maybe fit it to a BM2 rebuild.

[rover220]

your ism wiring is sunrise looking at the pics

Could well be. Although he said permobil. But that was in the title so may be just search bait. UK source. Not that US guy that the other bits came from. The inhibit bits look the same. And it came with a allow mounting bracket not shown.

In a month or two I will be looking for a sunrise seat, lift tilt recline unit, if you find one! Missed one on ebay recently due to a shortage of cash...

Any sign of the the bus cables? Looking forwards to testing my new permobil 120A power module to see if its been permobiled... I suspect there wont be an issue. If there is then I am after an OEM permobil programmer or it will go on the bay. Need to make a spare chair that saves my bum. Maybe fit it to a BM2 rebuild.

cables ive got send a pm to sort. ism is deffo from a sunrise chair if on an alloy bracket, not that it matters. your pm should be fine as they work like any other non permobil. the ics and esp are external add on modules.

[Burgerman]

Excellent.

Isnt their stability module just the usual PG one? Accelerometers and gyro on a tiny chip in a single module? Those use the same solid state accelerometers and gyro chips as my quadcopter does. Vastly under used in a powerchair! And worse, I have tried several chairs with stability control. Including adding a module to a rear drive one because it was here... And they all drive simply horrible.

You can spend days trying to fine tune user and gyro settings and it doesent help. Terrible things. They remove all the feel and feedback. Unless you have so little gyro assistance that its not worth putting it on. They are essential on front drive or they are not usable. At least above about 3mph. But on mid or rear its a stupid idea! My 2 penneth. Not sure why.

Fitting a hobby heli tail rotor rate gyro, (theres 4 on my bench) to the Roboteq works really well. Its RC anyway, so simple plug and play. Its transparent. It just works, and you can add or reduce gain with a screwdriver. Those appear to add no latency or affect your commands or control at all. Yet you cannot knock it of course at all.

[rover220]

Excellent.

Isnt their stability module just the usual PG one?

to the best of my knolwedge its not.

the pgdt gyro module is quite good in that it has 2 modules inside the one box so there is always a back up gyro active on the chaor

[Burgerman]

So another reason why not to buy permobil. Why do these manufacturers do this? It ends up that they shoot themselves in the foot. People read forums like this, before buying expensive chairs. And many will change their minds.

I for ne, would never buy a chair if I cannot get a suitable programmer that can doe OEM level stuff. Because without this that chair will always steer badly and frustrate the hell out of me. You then have only one parts source, and have to rely on dealers to do your programming and we all know how that sucks! For e.g. You cannot write a modified file to any modern Permobil?

Some are doing this though already. E.g. wheelie junkie with speciality controls. And the OEM generic, and now the sunrise version.

[wheelie junkie]

For someone like me, limited head movement and a short throw hypersensitive chin joystick I needed the OEM dongle, I've probably tried over 300 different settings to find what I can use best. Gyro works for me, I have one non gyro profile for travelling in a van. I had the gyro setup manual and help from PG, tried a lot of settings and in the end stuck with the factory settings. All too easy to make it uncontrollable and with no gyro like a dog with ice skates on in an ice rink.

Provided that you are sensible, keep the different settings files clearly marked, don't make radical changes and RTFM it is within a lot of users capability to set a chair up. Dealers can't spend the time getting it as good as it could be.

[Burgerman]

Are you using fwd permobil? And software generic/sunrise?

[wheelie junkie]

Are you using fwd permobil? And software generic/sunrise?

I'm in an Ottobock chair with R Net/Omni and now Sunrise software. OEM dongle. I've only got powered tilt 45º for pressure relief no other powered features, wanted to keep it as simple as possible with just essentials, 120A controller, 4 pole motor, 6 mph speed. Micro joystick for my limited movement and 2 different neck harnesses depending upon what I am doing. Chassis mounted chin control is stupid, putting a joystick on an almost 1m bent bar is never going to be a stable platform to steer from using your chin.

[rover220]

Chassis mounted chin control is stupid, putting a joystick on an almost 1m bent bar is never going to be a stable platform to steer from using your chin.

i wish everyone was as sensbile as you. i supplied a new sunrise q700m to a chap with a chin control and he was adamant he didnt want a harness mounted joystick. he now complains the joystick is not sturdy enough and moves around relative to his chin position when he is using the chair. he also wont use a harness making the issue worse

[wheelie junkie]

Chassis mounted chin control is stupid, putting a joystick on an almost 1m bent bar is never going to be a stable platform to steer from using your chin.

i wish everyone was as sensbile as you. i supplied a new sunrise q700m to a chap with a chin control and he was adamant he didnt want a harness mounted joystick. he now complains the joystick is not sturdy enough and moves around relative to his chin position when he is using the chair. he also wont use a harness making the issue worse

Talking to wheelchair companies many don't understand and keep trying to sell powered swing away mounts. They have no idea how useless that is. If you read BM's set up threads the first thing is hand position and solid base. It is no different with chin control only it is impossible to achieve so you find the next best thing and 1/2 inch bar 1m long with a heavy joystick definitely isn't it! I don't understand why your customer doesn't trial it, there are a number of options depending upon how you want the harness to fit. I have Switch It hoop around neck and Ottobock chest with straps over shoulders. Mo Vis multi joystick on adjustable sliding quick release to easily swap. Also got a QR on top of backrest and joystick slides in to be used as an attendant control no need for a costly second joystick. That is from 6 years like this and wanting to have a chair I could use individual to me but it isn't really most high level tetraplegics should probably have a similar setup.
I should of added get a chest harness to stop upper body slumping, he will never enjoy driving his chair slumped out of the side struggling to reach the joystick as it bounces around

[rover220]

Chassis mounted chin control is stupid, putting a joystick on an almost 1m bent bar is never going to be a stable platform to steer from using your chin.

i wish everyone was as sensbile as you. i supplied a new sunrise q700m to a chap with a chin control and he was adamant he didnt want a harness mounted joystick. he now complains the joystick is not sturdy enough and moves around relative to his chin position when he is using the chair. he also wont use a harness making the issue worse

Talking to wheelchair companies many don't understand and keep trying to sell powered swing away mounts. They have no idea how useless that is. If you read BM's set up threads the first thing is hand position and solid base. It is no different with chin control only it is impossible to achieve so you find the next best thing and 1/2 inch bar 1m long with a heavy joystick definitely isn't it! I don't understand why your customer doesn't trial it, there are a number of options depending upon how you want the harness to fit. I have Switch It hoop around neck and Ottobock chest with straps over shoulders. Mo Vis multi joystick on adjustable sliding quick release to easily swap. Also got a QR on top of backrest and joystick slides in to be used as an attendant control no need for a costly second joystick. That is from 6 years like this and wanting to have a chair I could use individual to me but it isn't really most high level tetraplegics should probably have a similar setup.
I should of added get a chest harness to stop upper body slumping, he will never enjoy driving his chair slumped out of the side struggling to reach the joystick as it bounces around

there are very few decent dealers out there can can achieve what most clients need. i fortunately work for one of the good ones!

[Burgerman]

Thats great. And I believe it. You are for a start on here helping. And offering help to people within sensible distance. How many others in your position are from the whole of the planet? You do seem to be a one off! Only yesterday I heard someone repeat that they were told to fully discharge the battery into the red before recharging. That was their NHS 'engineer'. backed up by their local mobility dealer. So when I say no, keep it fully charged where possible they think I am nuts. That stupid rumour is still being perpetuated. There ought to be an apprentiship and college, and some real training for this job. As it seems that nobody cares.

I do think that time is also an issue with programming. It takes a long time unless you know what you want, and even then a day or so. Esp if bad hand positioning, loose mounted joystick, or alternative controls due to abnormal hand or arm capability. Also skill levels change over time. I do think that for many access to a programmer long term is essential. Even for testing and fault evaluation. Plus, I still make odd changes to fine tune stuff years later myself.

For e.g. Theres small differences in programming needed as you gain or lose weight, or even different batteries feel different. I have a little extra motor load compensation on MKs compared to the same chair with a set of Odyssey batts, and a little less still with lithium. Or it feels either gutless or too harsh. You get a similar thing with personal weight. When I gained a few stone I needed more. When I lost 4 stone a few year back I reduced it some. Just by way of a single example.

[wheelie junkie]

there are very few decent dealers out there can can achieve what most clients need. i fortunately work for one of the good ones!

I am wanting my dealer to convert chair to central footrest, replies to my emails take around 3 weeks! Sadly no dealer locally that is any good. Even going direct to Ottobock had little effect. If it was a £14k car you wouldn't put up with it but it is about the norm for disability dealers. Distributors are as bad or worse. None of them would survive in the retail industry I work in.

[Burgerman]

Otto bock baffle me.

I wanted to look at specs and tech details to see if a single centre footrest, was an option, and if they had grp24 batts/4 pole/6mph/rnet 120 options. And a price. Their website seems to want to tell you nothing useful and send you off to a useless dealer. So I cant buy one!

https://www.ottobock.co.uk/wheelchairs- ... eelchairs/

Where are all the details, options, prescription forms, tech info, prices, with various configs, etc. How can I even consider if its suitable if I cant find anything out about them?

[rover220]

otto bock are hard to deal with whether you are a dealer or end user.

[rover220]

Only yesterday I heard someone repeat that they were told to fully discharge the battery into the red before recharging. That was their NHS 'engineer'. backed up by their local mobility dealer.

i hear that probably once a week, the ones that say it are usually the type that will never listen or understand either.

[Burgerman]

Maybe we need to filter the sort of people that are dealing with mobility and esp tech people. Maybe 3 years apprenticeship/college, exams, after an IQ test... Maybe JUST an IQ test.

Maybe thats not the issue. I was into drag race cars and bikes, dynamometers, fuel injection/nitrous injection. Why?
Because it was fast, loud, exiting and paid well.

I had zero interest in mobility stuff. It was to me, boring, and that was that. Never a 2nd look. So all the best engineers, those with any skills, are in aerospace, automotive, building anything but slow mobility scooters and powerchairs. As such, the engineer at my local WCS is a failed lawnmower mechanic. The ones working at two different local dealers are both ex shop worker/delivery drivers that picked up one or two bits as they worked there. Maybe been on some day courses from sunrise or whatever later on. These are our experts. Nobody starts out in life looking to be a mobility engineer. They have no real interest in these things, just ended up doing it. Most sell 2 or 3 chairs a year, and 1000s of tap turners oners, or folding portable scooters, or lift chairs to the old. Hence the issues we see. Much the same can be said about the manufacturers of these things.

[wheelie junkie]

Otto bock baffle me.

I wanted to look at specs and tech details to see if a single centre footrest, was an option, and if they had grp24 batts/4 pole/6mph/rnet 120 options. And a price. Their website seems to want to tell you nothing useful and send you off to a useless dealer. So I cant buy one!

https://www.ottobock.co.uk/wheelchairs- ... eelchairs/

Where are all the details, options, prescription forms, tech info, prices, with various configs, etc. How can I even consider if its suitable if I cant find anything out about them?

Tell me about it, even worse what they do publish is incorrect. Going from brochure and website I should have had 62AH batteries, chair delivered and I was then told by dealer and Ottobock that my small size 1 chassis only had 53AH batteries, pissed off I complained which fell on deaf ears. My friend subsequently opened battery box and found 62AH batteries. Evidently they quote c5 rather than c20 rate.

Dealer gave me the information as none of their information was of use. Confirmed 4 pole, 120A, 6mph but not centre footrest as I wasn't bothered when I ordered. I am now and trying to get it done is getting frustrating.

The real sad bit is that the chair is well built and not badly priced for reasonable quality German engineering.

[Burgerman]

My friend subsequently opened battery box and found 62AH batteries. Evidently they quote c5 rather than c20 rate.

Here is another problem.
I can deplete a set of batteries in 1 hour cleaning my driveway with a leaf blower with constant left/right turns, and the controller overheats and shuts down. I end up blasting the leaf blower on the controller to force cool and looking at red battery lights but I digress. Thats a 1 hour rate.

If you take a 6.2mph chair, like mine, out, at its miserable 6 mph you cover 12.4 real world miles in 2 hours. Then its out of juice! Flashing red. Thats the 2 hour rate. This is MUCH worse with an 8mph chair. Since they draw more Amps, and cover that same distance faster!

So the 5 hour rate is almost as unrealistic as the 20 hour rate. And the actual rate depends on how you use it.

The 2 hour rate which is closer to reality, sees a battery gives approx 3/5ths its 20 hour rate capacity down to 10.2V. The chair stops moving before that, at around 11.8V. But even that presumes you can discharge it at CONSTANT 2 hour rate. That means 35A on a 70Ah battery. But we dont...
We take maybe 100 to 150A on every zero speed turn in place. Thats the 15 minute to 30 minute 4 to 2C rate! Same on hard acceleration, or curbs, ramps etc. And the battery voltage at say 50% starts at 12.4V per battery, and when loaded with 100+A drops below 18V at which point your red flashing light comes on and/or chair stops or refuses to perform properly. Or the controller limits Amps, so no torque. So even that 2H rate is totally unrealistic as we cannot operate at below 12V..

But what can I say...

[rover220]

otto bock are the only manufacturer that i know of who use the c5 rating which is naughty at best and plain misleading at worse.

[Burgerman]

Presumably they do this because the ISO predicted range test is based on the 5 hour rate.

[wheelie junkie]

I hit them with a hard email complaining about the incorrect advertising and how they could not explain that the size 1 chassis got fitted with a smaller battery. Evidently they will correct it.... A definite case of misdescription anyway.

[Burgerman]

Well its all irrelivant anyway. Lead isnt a fuel tank.

Get a hobby Ah counter like the turnigy one. And charge full, and drive till it stops. You will get around half your battery rated capacity. Less some days, more others. Wait 24 hours, and it will go again, and give you about another 15 to 20 %...