polishing the turd!

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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 08 Nov 2019, 18:09

hi all well after reprogramming the now i think safe ex turd got a road test and i spent a freezing cold hour (as long as lap top charge) looking like the local loony driving doughnuts and mounting obstacles whilst setting each of the basic parameters following bms make it steer thread settings and saved the program! it steers great now real precise and easy i had to turn motor comp down to 30 and torque at 80% or it took of a bit to lively and front wheels lifted a bit,i did make one silly mistake in trying to work out exact best position to fit the anti tips i had tina come sit in it and i was tipping it manually via back of the seat not thinking and the threaded bar i used for the brace bent!!! adequate for holding the back of the seat but not for the leverage needed to tip it! banghead banghead but ive ordered an ali turnbuckle link to replace it.
i still need to sort a couple of niggles silly bits that need custom making i think ie tina has trouble holding on to the small knob of the vr2 joystick idk if alternative types exist :? she has arthritis so poor grip and sort of palms the joystick, it is def faster than her gunter meire chair tina tested for short ride as its cold and horrid but came back grinning!pics cheers
chair ex turd 001.JPG
chair ex turd 002.JPG
chair ex turd 003.JPG
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 08 Nov 2019, 18:14

chair ex turd 005.JPG
chair ex turd 006.JPG
chair ex turd 007.JPG
cheers :joint
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Burgerman » 08 Nov 2019, 19:03

Looking good. Only thing is its a bit wide. Motor compensation should definitely be 40 to 45 with those 4 poles though. And if its too lively reduce acceleration settings. Or damping. Or it will less able to auto correct for load.
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 08 Nov 2019, 19:42

Burgerman wrote:Looking good. Only thing is its a bit wide. Motor compensation should definitely be 40 to 45 with those 4 poles though. And if its too lively reduce acceleration settings. Or damping. Or it will less able to auto correct for load.

yes it ended up wider than ideal but manageable now it steers properly and we have all widened doors and plenty wide enough paths i had to order different spacers shims which will shave another 4mm of the width each side.
but i think for tinas use it is ideal and bigger footprint on the mossy cambered tarmac riverwalk paths should help it not frrl like it is in danger of tipping over or sliding into the river! she has been very close several times in the gunter chair.
i shall try raising the motor comp and other settings but tbh i was cold tired and aching and in need of meds by the time i had it driveable im not even meant to be out of bed but could never stay still that long without going mad :shock: :shock: :roll:
thanks for your advice it is a great help i struggle still with the computer stuff cos im an old fart. :joint
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Burgerman » 08 Nov 2019, 20:11

Im an old fart too.

Use these exact speed, acceleration, deceleration and turn speed settings. All those in SPEED SETTINGS.

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/program ... ions.R-net

Then adjust the torque (only effects very slow speeds like starting and stopping) to suit. You may need it lower.
Then adjust tremor damping or damping, to suit your misses hands and control.

And use 40 or 45 mOhms.
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Scooterman » 08 Nov 2019, 20:30

Cor that looks really really good, well done :worship

The F55 is great design.
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 08 Nov 2019, 22:59

Scooterman wrote:Cor that looks really really good, well done :worship

The F55 is great design.

the frame was a meyra 4mph turd not f55 i wish that would have been way easier! typical just after i had most stuff done i did find an f55 chassis complete for £200 and loads of odds and sods but budget wouldnt stretch this time,maybe for the next!peace :D :joint
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 09 Nov 2019, 14:08

hi all well the damn charger has gone wrong so another damn expense but i reckon its what killed the original lead bricks as its charging non stop at over 30v right up to 31.9v then down to fluctuating between 26-29-5 in a random manner,so its for the bin and only spare charger i have is a small 24v scooter one only 2 amp but as its not for long and is just maintaining them is it better than nothing ?idk i shall check and see what it says on my meter i dont want to bugger the new ones.
i have decided its far to cold play out there today and been waiting in for the housing assc to come and fix our back garden fence,its taken best part of 5 years since reporting it falling over and after a commitee meeting or 10 they decided they can only replace the 2 most rotten ones and rung up at some ungodly hour this morning saying they be here in 15 mins so dragged my sick arse out of bed got dogs done and been waiting ever since! banghead
as it is mrfugly cant even go in the garden as theres foxes and he likes to chase them!peace
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Burgerman » 09 Nov 2019, 14:18

Sounds like a typical mobility charger...
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 09 Nov 2019, 14:33

Burgerman wrote:Sounds like a typical mobility charger...

yes invacare crap one,question would this be better than a cheap mobility charger if i just fit a suitable neutrix plug?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/8-Amp-Intell ... c163815a9d
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Burgerman » 09 Nov 2019, 14:34

Battery will last a week.
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Burgerman » 09 Nov 2019, 14:37

Nobody can say, it has no actual specs we cant know. But the fact that it claims to charge all, isnt promising... Thats not possible unless the user chooses the specs. Also its only 4A. You need 12 ideally.
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 09 Nov 2019, 15:12

Burgerman wrote:Nobody can say, it has no actual specs we cant know. But the fact that it claims to charge all, isnt promising... Thats not possible unless the user chooses the specs. Also its only 4A. You need 12 ideally.

all the ones i can find on ebay say either 2 or 5 amp that seems to be the highest? i guess a 2 amp just takes a lot longer which in this case is no problem it is just to maintain them when not in use more than charging as i can allways plug into tinas chair charger now and then if needs be,any reccomended make of crap mobility chargers?cheers for input im dubious of trusting any descriptions on ebay,stats are there what they bother with but most seem very slack in description department! cheers
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Burgerman » 09 Nov 2019, 15:29

Then 2 amp is enough given 2 days, 8A is OK, 12A better still but they MUST drop down to 13.8V float after charge for up to 1 day max. This tops off the battery safely over 16 to 20 hours as the chargers CV stage will stop too soon.
Better still drop to 27.0 to 27.2 volts at the battery after charge ends, for up to a week. After a week, or at most 2 weeks, the voltage must be lower and between 26.4 and 26.8 volts. At that level they will be maintained at peak condition safely, indefinitely.

A charger that can charge AGM proerly in cyclic use, needs to charge at 28.8V for at least 8 hours CV or 12 hours total, or stop when 1000thC current is reached. Then no float required. Its done when its done...

A charger that is cheap and nasty, that cannot be programmed to end at the right time (like most) needs to charge at 28.6 to 29V and have a 27.6V Float for cyclic use, and is 100% full in 16 hours. Or a 26.4 to 26.8V float for long term storage use.

So a charger for storage needs to charge at 28.80V until current drops to a very low level, then sit at 26.4 to 26.8 forever.

If you dont know exactly what it does, its useless.
If you are charging gel, the above is also useless.
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 09 Nov 2019, 17:04

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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Burgerman » 09 Nov 2019, 17:10

Every charger will 'work'.

But again, if it claims to charge both gel and AGM which require different things, and without any kind of spec to see what it ACTUALLY does how can you know what it will do.

Many of those things would be OK on AGM, and murder a gel battery. As long as you charge for 16 hours every use and then disconnect. Why? Because they STOP the CV stage far too soon, charge at the correct 28.80V for AGM, and then rely on a too high 27.6V float to finish the charge. So that will likely cook the batteries if left connected long term.

But without further info, or control you cant know what they will do.
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 09 Nov 2019, 17:17

anyone tried these ones? says 12 amp


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Marshall-LC2 ... 3195553079
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 09 Nov 2019, 17:59

Burgerman wrote:Every charger will 'work'.

But again, if it claims to charge both gel and AGM which require different things, and without any kind of spec to see what it ACTUALLY does how can you know what it will do.

Many of those things would be OK on AGM, and murder a gel battery. As long as you charge for 16 hours every use and then disconnect. Why? Because they STOP the CV stage far too soon, charge at the correct 28.80V for AGM, and then rely on a too high 27.6V float to finish the charge. So that will likely cook the batteries if left connected long term.

But without further info, or control you cant know what they will do.

i fail to understand how the hell they get away with saying they do all batterys safely etc if in reality there slowly buggering them up! it seems nothing is what it says it is or should be,we used to have standards for all these things before all this euro bollocks came around people ended up mocking british standards once but i bet most oldie brits like myself would welcome the return of some genuine standards seen to be adhered to here in the uk not some spurious overseas co who have no interest in how long or indeed in if the thing even is capable of doing what it is sold for czy
you would think it would be a sensible rule that any such electrical gadgets should have to include full and accurate specs but that would be far to sensible.
bring back standards!!!!!!!! banghead banghead
this says it all to me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsLhNxzwK1Y cheers
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Burgerman » 09 Nov 2019, 18:06

The people selling them, and the people designing them, and the programmers programing them understand sales, electronics, programming. Non of them have a clue about batteries, and the end user wouldnt know what they wanted, or what was needed or understand any real spec even if they had one.

This is why I charge lead with either a power supply, set how I decide, or the PL8 that has had its formware modified because of me so it works correctly, and set to the correct parameters in its settings by me.

i fail to understand how the hell they get away with saying they do all batterys safely etc

NONE say that. They claim to charge, which they do. They use words like automatic, and maintain, desulfate, yada yada and stuff to lull you into thinking its all great.
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Burgerman » 09 Nov 2019, 18:15

Heres what the invacare gel mobility charger does. MONITORED by the PL8.
This was scootermans graph. I think, and no, we couldnt figure out what it was doing either.
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Burgerman » 09 Nov 2019, 18:21

HERES what it was meant to do, charged BY my pl8. Albeit a different AGM battery type.
It was SUPPOSED charge at full power, and when volts hit 14.7, to hold the voltage steady for 8 hours or 1000thC in current whichever came first. Like this.
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Burgerman » 09 Nov 2019, 18:30

So, how lucky do you feel? :clap

The invacare charger doesent actually have any spec you COULD write down. More like, random shit happens. :lol:
And millions of those have been supplied worldwide. Not to mention chinese clones. God knows what they do. Will it charge a battery? Yes. Sort of. Will they last? No. Garanteed! Does anyone care? It appears that they dont, and they dont understand there even is a problem.

The manufacturers certainly do. You lose SIXTY PERCENT of your battery life by goung just .7V too high. So for a gel battery at room temperature thats 13.8 to 14.1V. Or 13.95 bang in the centre, correct volts. So charging at 14.65V (see the yellow chart above) you lose more than half the cycle life. And undercharging, (stopping too soon) causes sulfation which also costs service life. MKs own data:

Image1.gif




Next thread will be "I fitted a new set of [insert brand] batteries 3 weeks ago and they are not holding a charge... :fencing
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 09 Nov 2019, 19:07

Burgerman wrote:So, how lucky do you feel? :clap

The invacare charger doesent actually have any spec you COULD write down. More like, random shit happens. :lol:
And millions of those have been supplied worldwide. Not to mention chinese clones. God knows what they do. Will it charge a battery? Yes. Sort of. Will they last? No. Garanteed! Does anyone care? It appears that they dont, and they dont understand there even is a problem.

The manufacturers certainly do. You lose SIXTY PERCENT of your battery life by goung just .7V too high. So for a gel battery at room temperature thats 13.8 to 14.1V. Or 13.95 bang in the centre, correct volts. So charging at 14.65V (see the yellow chart above) you lose more than half the cycle life. And undercharging, (stopping too soon) causes sulfation which also costs service life. MKs own data:

Image1.gif




Next thread will be "I fitted a new set of [insert brand] batteries 3 weeks ago and they are not holding a charge... :fencing


dont say things like that please my lucks been awful lately! i guess its random pick and hope for the best seems all one can do,a jolly sad state of things imo.id love one of those fancy modern brainy chargers but then id need to ask you millions more probably annoying questions and upset you :cussing im hoping for the best whilst expecting the worst just so as not to be disappointed,peace :joint
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Burgerman » 09 Nov 2019, 20:39

Unfortunately not saying it does not change a thing! The physics that determines how the world and everything in it doesent care about your bad luck!

Actually its not luck. Luck doesent exist. Its all about knowledge, engineering, logic, and physics. You can ignore it if you want. But if you want better luck its best not to do that!

Seriously, the more you understand the CHEAPER your life will become, and the better your 'luck' will turn out to be. Doesent include healh!
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby LROBBINS » 09 Nov 2019, 21:00

Though not as cheap as those unknown spec chargers, the ZXD power supply/charger that Shirley has been getting for many of us in Hong Kong is for now the closest one comes to a simple, push-one-button, battery charger as well as bench power supply. With adjustable output up to 60V and 50A and an easy setup to use it as a 3-stage charger with output adjustable for any lead-acid chemistry, if you can at all afford one it will serve you well. In the long run it will cost less than ruined batteries.
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Burgerman » 09 Nov 2019, 21:55

Agreed. He will get one after ruining a few more sets of batteries and wasting money on a pile of crappy chargers! Like most do. THEN eventually will see the light. Its not about not being able to afford it. Because its the other way around! I couldnt afford to do things his way! You get to buy everything several times over, then do it properly afterwards anyway. Makes no sense to me. Everbody is different! :argument

Esp as he has plans to do lithium. Because it will power the PL8 too in the future.
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 09 Nov 2019, 23:34

like i have said before if your choices are do it cheap or not at all then which is better?if i saved for the amount needed for say anything similar to bms builds it would take about 3-4 years,tina is 64 and aging fast so saving and waiting or hoping for a sudden windfall would just be pointless when she needs it now i have just done the best im able with what i have to fund it and still be able to pay the bills,no credit ever for anything in my whole life if i want something i worked for it and saved or learned to do it myself ,
we do have the wcs coming to assess her on the 12th and sort out a chair for her to use indoors and hospital etc which may or not help and other than start a life of crime of which i am no good i will continue to do best i can with little we have,peace
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Burgerman » 09 Nov 2019, 23:41

like i have said before if your choices are do it cheap or not at all then which is better?

We were not talking about a full chair, only the charger.

Not knocking what you have done. Looks good. However, you will get a chair from WCS soon? It will have an 8A mobility charger with it. I have about 3 on the shelf at the moment. You can use it for both chairs while you save! As for what it actually does to or for the batteries nobody knows. Till you measure it.

Hopefully she needs a chair INDOORS primarily. Thats what the WCS will provide. Dont mention mud, parks, dogs! Hopefully the batteries will be MK or at least decent, and will swap over... Keep the good ones for the fat tyre chair. When knackered, put them back in the NHS chair and call them!

When the cheap batteries die, return under warranty. DO NOT mention wheelchairs, and they will replace FOC too.
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 10 Nov 2019, 14:29

Burgerman wrote:
like i have said before if your choices are do it cheap or not at all then which is better?

We were not talking about a full chair, only the charger.

Not knocking what you have done. Looks good. However, you will get a chair from WCS soon? It will have an 8A mobility charger with it. I have about 3 on the shelf at the moment. You can use it for both chairs while you save! As for what it actually does to or for the batteries nobody knows. Till you measure it.

Hopefully she needs a chair INDOORS primarily. Thats what the WCS will provide. Dont mention mud, parks, dogs! Hopefully the batteries will be MK or at least decent, and will swap over... Keep the good ones for the fat tyre chair. When knackered, put them back in the NHS chair and call them!

When the cheap batteries die, return under warranty. DO NOT mention wheelchairs, and they will replace FOC too.


smart thinking id never have thought of that!i see it as someone elses property ive been lent so wouldnt occur to me normally !
well today i was out tidying the little outbuilding i use as my workshop and looking at the ex turd as it sits and it occured to me that the battery box is a really solid thick steel welded quite well and going by eye and my angle gauge the box is near perfectly aligned and it would be possible by chopping of the 2 mounting arms for the swinging arm i could move both motors in by atleast 3-4 inches and all it needs is a slim spacer plinth type block of ali each side as i did away with the shocks and having tested it a bit it rides better and less bouncy (thats what hurts tina) having it rigid with just the low pressure tyres as suspension it looks like only slight down side is it would need to be approx 1-2 inches taller but then the seat still can be dropped several degrees as well which would leave it more or less the same and she was dead happy with being able to reach the ground without having to move forwards in the seat,i could countersink the mounting bolts ao no interference to battery compartment,mmm i see another episode of angle grinders and sudden weight loss!!!!!!!! czy peace :joint cheers
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 11 Nov 2019, 18:21

hi all well today being the first day ive felt well enough to road/field test the ex turd so armed with the new controler program thanks bm i set of with chair and laptop and as per bms thread make it steer i took a hand written list (bm the program you linked to is rnet this is vr2) and step by step done each setting and then tested,thoroughly and harshly! aimed for every muddy bit every pothole every tree root and just went for it we have 4-6 inches of standing mud and water leaves moss etc so proper mucky! the cheapo batteries must atleast start of good as they have plenty of power and chair is very quick to max speed,idk what difference the new wheelsize makes to speed as there 6mph motors but it feels faster than tinas gunter meire chair,anyhow after my test i took it home and tina went for a drive and did the dogwalk entirely on the same very wet muddy park and honest to see the grin on her face as she tears around the park with the dogs chasing her is more than reward for the effort it made my day!
and she came back with the same grin so i reckon its a winner! heres what it looked like after the test day! :clap:
took some cleaning before i could park it up to charge on tinas charger,thanks all for the help and advices it means a lot to be able to do this stuff and i could not have done so without help,so bless you, :worship i need :joint peace
chair maiden voyage 001.JPG

chair maiden voyage 002.JPG

chair maiden voyage 003.JPG
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