polishing the turd!

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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby LROBBINS » 29 Nov 2019, 21:06

I doubt if a small amount of tremor damping will have a noticeable effect on chair response (even though too much might). It averages small stick movements over a short time interval and if not set too high that time interval is very short compared to the intertia/acceleration time of the chair itself. Of course, you can try a small amount and if you don't like the way it feels take it out again.
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby ex-Gooserider » 03 Dec 2019, 01:28

The other thing that MAY be worth looking at is how much "dead-band" you have on the joystick - i.e. how far it has to be moved from center before the controller starts to drive the chair....

It probably won't help much if the tremor is happening when she is trying to hold a constant speed on the stick, but I have seen some cases where the user's hand is shaky when not 'loaded' by trying to hold still, but steady if there is a 'load' to push against....

If her problem is shakiness while the chair is stationary, increasing the deadband to be just wider than the shake might be just the thing.... However it is definitely a setting that needs to be experimented with.

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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Burgerman » 03 Dec 2019, 02:04

The biggest clue to the issue may be this. download/file.php?id=12435&mode=view

I cant drive my chair even remotely under any semblence of control if I cannot hold (cup) the joystick pod with my palm. And use that as a solid reference point to allow my thumb and forefinger to accurately position the joystick. I cannot stress how important this is. I realise that many have difficulty with control of hands and fingers but even so try to make it as close to this as possible. Only then will control be possible.

So the joystick needs to be higher, and further inboard where you hand or wrist naturally falls with your arm on the armrest. And not rested on the arm top, with just fingers or hand holding that ball. Because that will make control with the sort of accurate programming you have already configured impossible.

watch ONLY my hand, and fingers here. The HAND being the important part. The joystick has a 3 inch gap between the arm top, and the plastic housing. Is 3 inches inboard of the centreline of the arm. And high enough to make this position possible and comfortable. Without this proper control is simply impossible.

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/control.mp4
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 03 Dec 2019, 19:23

Burgerman wrote:The biggest clue to the issue may be this. download/file.php?id=12435&mode=view

I cant drive my chair even remotely under any semblence of control if I cannot hold (cup) the joystick pod with my palm. And use that as a solid reference point to allow my thumb and forefinger to accurately position the joystick. I cannot stress how important this is. I realise that many have difficulty with control of hands and fingers but even so try to make it as close to this as possible. Only then will control be possible.

So the joystick needs to be higher, and further inboard where you hand or wrist naturally falls with your arm on the armrest. And not rested on the arm top, with just fingers or hand holding that ball. Because that will make control with the sort of accurate programming you have already configured impossible.

watch ONLY my hand, and fingers here. The HAND being the important part. The joystick has a 3 inch gap between the arm top, and the plastic housing. Is 3 inches inboard of the centreline of the arm. And high enough to make this position possible and comfortable. Without this proper control is simply impossible.

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/control.mp4

hi bm hers is pretty much same layout and position other than she has shortish arms so the joystick is slightly closer to the armrest but other than that its in the best place for her and her steering is spot on accurate and stable 90% of the time its just every now and then her hand shakes a lot and as you say with the steering prog you gave me it does it quick and of course her shake increases that if she fails to slow down,the entrance to the bungalow is a fairly narrow path with a low brick wall like 2/3 bricks high and she had a shake halfway up and bounced chair of both sides luckily the big puffy sidewalls of the rear tyres hit it and so took the brunt of the impact and she nor the tyres got damaged but it did scare both of us a bit,so i have setting or mode 1 as per your program but the tremor damping on and set to 10 and next time she has a tremor problem she will stay in mode 1 and below 4 mph and see if it helps,thanks for your input again.
may i ask if you have an idea on the pg drives vr2 program fault codes 1701 and 1703 mean i have researched it on the pg drives site and read pdf thing but find no such fault code i can see but im a little number dyslexic so no surprise there,any ideas if not of top of your head or know better source to look it up myself,thanks cheers :joint
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 03 Dec 2019, 23:58

hi again well i think i figured it out myself a faulty connector on the rh brake so i did away with the thing and soldered them proper and seems to be ok again i did loads of stopping and starting and around the kitchen till i was dizzy! hopefully it be ok for a while but the rh brake sounds slower switching on and of though working fine even on the steep ramp into car it holds ok is there anything in particular makes them slower than other side? :problem: will report tomorrow after morning dogwalk.peace :joint
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 12 Dec 2019, 13:19

hi all well thanks to our @woody the mud monster lives again!he kindly sent a replacement vr2 brain and after a rather scary start where on switching it on for the first time it took of on its own very rapidly across my kitchen floor without anything touching the joystick at all!crashed into my plastic toolbox and crushed it flat against the brick wall! i guess the motor comp was a bit high for the 4 pole motors,so i put on the program that @burgerman gave me and all seems well again.
of course it pissing down with rain now and i have to take her shopping before i can give it a proper test drive,the what was sounding slow brake seems fine now and all i did was clean it and fit new soldered terminals and 2 new andersons for the motor wires and one for the battery connection so if it behaves now we shall be very happy and sorted till after the xmas hols then i shall try find another vr2 brain and or a vsi as i prefer that,is there a good reason for having brain and jsm seperate? i see only downsides as twice as much space taken and brain is in such a position as to be closer to any water and debris seems daft having it that low to me.
anyhow thanks again for the help and bless you i hope i can repay the kindness one day,peace :worship need :joint :lol: cheers
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 12 Dec 2019, 15:33

hi all well test drive was great it stops and starts and steers just as it should now and even overtook a few cars on the route so thanks so much woody for the help she will hopefully be a bit happier now as a sad tina is not nice,still raining so reckon the mudmonster will be needed for dogwalk! thanks all who have advised i am grateful,peace :worship :joint
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Burgerman » 12 Dec 2019, 16:20

Compensation too high will do that. Fun no?
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby woodygb » 12 Dec 2019, 16:51

duke1 wrote: i see only downsides as twice as much space taken and brain is in such a position as to be closer to any water and debris seems daft having it that low to me.


Move it somewhere more to your liking.
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 12 Dec 2019, 21:21

woodygb wrote:
duke1 wrote: i see only downsides as twice as much space taken and brain is in such a position as to be closer to any water and debris seems daft having it that low to me.


Move it somewhere more to your liking.

theres so little room under the cover and wiring is only so long so needs to be where it is, but maybe a bit better waterproofing would help,i was thinking the spray ignition sealer stuff we used to use on the old bl minis to stop the dizzy going wrong through water ingress but i have used amalgamating tape on all the wires and joints so should be pretty much waterproof now and im aware its not such a worry with dc motors i just hate when stuff gets buggered up for no obvious reason,but i guess the vr2 could have gone wrong anytime but atleast it was close to home so that saved a long push home! anyhow its working groovy again now and tina hopefully be a bit happier tomorrow as she been miserable today! banghead peace
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby ex-Gooserider » 17 Dec 2019, 03:42

duke1 wrote:hi all well thanks to our @woody the mud monster lives again!he kindly sent a replacement vr2 brain and after a rather scary start where on switching it on for the first time it took of on its own very rapidly across my kitchen floor without anything touching the joystick at all!crashed into my plastic toolbox and crushed it flat against the brick wall! i guess the motor comp was a bit high for the 4 pole motors,so i put on the program that @burgerman gave me and all seems well again.
of course it pissing down with rain now and i have to take her shopping before i can give it a proper test drive,the what was sounding slow brake seems fine now and all i did was clean it and fit new soldered terminals and 2 new andersons for the motor wires and one for the battery connection so if it behaves now we shall be very happy and sorted till after the xmas hols then i shall try find another vr2 brain and or a vsi as i prefer that,is there a good reason for having brain and jsm seperate? i see only downsides as twice as much space taken and brain is in such a position as to be closer to any water and debris seems daft having it that low to me.
anyhow thanks again for the help and bless you i hope i can repay the kindness one day,peace :worship need :joint :lol: cheers



The JSM and the motor control module don't HAVE to be separate, some cheap chairs have "all in one" units, but it is really MUCH better to have separate modules....

Obviously the joystick needs to be up on the armrest where you can reach it - so if doing an all-in-one then you have to run all the wiring for the batteries and the motor power, brakes and so on up to that all in one module... This means you need a really BIG cable bundle as the wires from the batteries and motors need to be heavy enough to carry the required current.... Worse, it makes the distance the wires have to go be longer, which increases the wiring resistance unless you use even bigger wires.... Worse yet, you need a LOT of conductors - theoretical minimum is 8, actually you end up with about a dozen. In order to avoid this the all in one units tend to be VERY low power 40-50A max, instead of the 80-120A that is really needed....

By separating the modules, you have minimal power needs at the joystick, so the cable to it can be very small and light, with only a few small gage conductors... The power module can then use shorter wires which allows higher amperage and larger wires without having a huge bundle going up to the joystick....

It also lets the joystick module itself be smaller as it doesn't also have to hold all the power electronics...

You do want to be careful in your efforts to waterproof the module - it also needs to be able to cool, so blocking vents or trying to seal it in an enclosed area can be problematic and lead to overheating.... Most of the modules I've seen have a design with the connectors and any vents on one side, and fairly well sealed on the opposite side.... Best is to mount it so that the connectors and vent openings are at the bottom and facing down so any splashing can drip back out easily... Then trying to put covers around it to minimize how much splash and spray can get to the module is good but only if it doesn't block cooling air flow...

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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 17 Dec 2019, 13:07

thanks for the explanation ex goose i figured as much but had to ask as the vsi is 90amp on tinas gunter miere 6mph chair has been very reliable and easier for a novice to program as there are very many less parameters.
the vr2 is reems of stuff i have no idea about at all so do not tamper with more than the basics, and only then one parameter at a time and have tried to learn the result and remember(the hard bit!) anyhow the vr2 brain is in the original location affixed to a alloy heatsink and with good air circulation and all the points where wires join are well waterproofed so it should be ok there its just constant washing every time she uses it means using as best waterproof as i can and hoping water stays out when she is driving through 4-6 inches of very muddy water daily!its a case of where i draw the line i guess and lots of amalgamating tape which i think a very clever product and far better than crap insulating tape! :lol: cheers :joint
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 18 Dec 2019, 17:56

hi all well today the mudmonster got its toughest test yet through some of the deepest mud and cut grass mix and even over a few boulders and roots tina tested the very limits of its traction and though at one point (due to being a damn speedfreak) it suddenly lost traction wheelspined a bit and did a litle mud sliging fishtailing sort of spin,i thought it may have scared her but the big silly slightly muddy grin says not! heres what the mudmonster looked like by time we got home after a non stop hour and 20 minutes at full pelt through very rough muddy paths!lots of cleaning but i love to see her happy! :thumbup: :dance but need a rest now and defrost hands :shock:
mudmonster 001.JPG

mudmonster 002.JPG

mudmonster 003.JPG
cheers :joint
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Burgerman » 18 Dec 2019, 18:07

In the winter after dogwalking my chairs used to look just the same. The secret is to rinse it off completely, and assist with a small brush if needed while its still fresh and wet. If you let it dry a hose pipe and a quick rinse will not do it. No amount of rewetting quite gets it all off. So it dries looking dirty. It then is a pig to clean properly without stripping it down. So best rinse it the moment you are home and before you go in. With the hose that you left out ready... :argument
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Scooterman » 18 Dec 2019, 18:48

Burgerman wrote:With the hose that you left out ready... :argument

I hope you've got a license for that, I used to work for the water company :lol:
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Burgerman » 18 Dec 2019, 20:59

I dont have a licence for anything. I am anti anything that involves civil servants or socialist structures.

Now after dog licences, and the Biased Broadcasting Company licence, they want a hose pipe licence? Well I never intend paying anyone for a licence for anything. And that icludes my quadcopter. Are they stupid? Why would I volunteer to add my ID to something that might get me in trouble if they knew who I was. And PAY for the privelidge! Makes me laugh. I get a love letter from the BBC monthly. For 23 years now. Aparently 'on wednesday (or another day) an "officer" (with the same powers as that bloke flogging dusters) will be coming to investigate. I hope so. Give me a chance to tell him what I think, before telling him to f**k *ff and get a real job. But just like the last 10 years nobody will turn up. I already sent a letter refusing them implied rights of access to my driveway and door. So one step and I prosecute them for harassement and trespass. Licenses. How cute. :clap
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 18 Dec 2019, 21:33

Burgerman wrote:In the winter after dogwalking my chairs used to look just the same. The secret is to rinse it off completely, and assist with a small brush if needed while its still fresh and wet. If you let it dry a hose pipe and a quick rinse will not do it. No amount of rewetting quite gets it all off. So it dries looking dirty. It then is a pig to clean properly without stripping it down. So best rinse it the moment you are home and before you go in. With the hose that you left out ready... :argument

a bit of good old fairy liquid and very hot water in my diy heath robinson pressure sprayer and majority of it is of down the gutter but the damn leaves get in all its nooks and crannies and hang on for dear life! honestly the difference from the utterly useless piece of crap that sounded like you was dragging an upside down shopping trolley behind it has become so very much better and now she is happy and not feeling bad and sad stuck on the pavement and for her mental health (not so sure about mine) its been a godsend and like i say seeing her happy running the dogs makes me happy to.
just got to teach her a little about slowing down and not giving up if and when it does loose traction but being exbikers we like yourself are well used to wet and muddy riding! and it looks like a flood warning for this area has just moved up a peg so maybe i shall think about fitting it with floats and a paddle wheel!!!!!! :joint cheers
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 30 Dec 2019, 14:32

its broken!left hand motor is buggered it needs new cush drive but no other damage as she sensibly noticed the change and stopped so its back in my kitchen as its far to cold in the sunroom atm im hoping to find a useable one in my odd box but still not feeling very strong myself and hand is so bloody sore just from an hours spanner work czy :evil:
but def worth fixing she loves using it and is so much happier whizzing about throwing mud everywhere!happy new year to all,peace
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Burgerman » 30 Dec 2019, 16:00

The joys of using old motors. This is exactly why I dont. And I modify the cush drive/motor couplings from new, BEFORE they fail. Since we know that one day they do fail otherwise.

How it fails. Heres a bad one that was removed and wasnt making any noises or giving anywarnings but about to fail completely, and a new one.
And yes sir, if your chair is used hard they always fail eventually, its just a matter of when. And you dont get home. And it does not matter what make of chair. They all use common motors, from around 4 manufacturers and they all fail. This happens quickly if your chair is actually programmed well so that it responds properly. So those that have chairs that steer correctly, should worry more! But thats not essential, they fail anyway...

cush1.jpg
THIS is HOW they fail. They expand and jam or break up.


How to fix 1. Find some steel or stainless steel tube the correct diameter to fit to the outside.

cush3.jpg
THIS is how you prevent that BEFORE it leaves you stuck unable to get home.


Cut to length, assemble with epoxy or in a vice.

cush4.jpg
Push together in a vice. If its not tight, use epoxy to be sure it never moves.


Then trim the ends with a file. Not done here yet. Do this when NEW before they show any sign of disress. And then they never fail.

cush5.jpg
Last, take a file to it, to trim the ends. Not done yet here!
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Burgerman » 30 Dec 2019, 16:22

Heres a pile of ones I killed. Far from complete I might add!

Image

Image
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 13 Jan 2020, 19:07

hi all well with help from @terry2 the mudmonster lives again! i have done a little more tweeking of the program and we took it for a nice long very muddy hilly and wet riverwalk and my tina came back smiling :clap thanks so much terry from us both :worship
i also have terrys old puma 40 which i am sorting out for her everyday use tomorrow i have a new set of leoch lead bricks coming and need to get yet more solder as ive run out doing the mudmonster motors,was a big roll as well!
im hoping to get the puma working quick as she is so uncomfortable and i think the seating more comfortable than the horrid thing the nhs have given her,which is going back to wcs on the 15th and im presenting my case for a personal wheelchair budget which would make keeping the chairs going a lot easier and tina will end up with exactly the chairs she needs not what some uneducated fool who doesnt know her met her for all of 10 minutes and decided her needs all wrong!
if i ever get the budget i want to build a lithium replacement for the chairs or atleast one,cheers all :joint
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Burgerman » 13 Jan 2020, 22:10

Now you are getting it.
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 13 Jan 2020, 22:37

Burgerman wrote:Now you are getting it.

i have proper gotten on the case of the pwb and and am armed with printed copy of the latest nhs guidelines on the personal health budget and have highlighted the relevant bits showing how they have breached there own nhs rules in multiple ways and have tweeked the assessment i wrote a little and added some nice touches like the safety aspects there so keen on and how a proper powerchair with sensible size and type of tyre is essential for her safety being as we live on the edge of a riverwalk to which all 3 large parks within miles all back onto it has cambers fords etc and an ordinary chair slides and aims her for the river,
and how tubeless tyres are essential as the rough terrain shreds the cheap nylon tyres etc
and also touched on the mental anxiety caused by the range anxiety limiting what she can do before chair dies outside on the lonely riverwak etc
probably laying it on a bit thick tbh but they need telling. even if they say no in writing theres avenues of appeal and i will banghead :ak47
im a very determined hippy and single minded when i want something,esp for my tina czy cheers
i shall let you all know how i get on,peace and good :joint
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 28 Jan 2020, 20:12

hi all well i am back and have a smallish problem i need help with,if you have followed this thread then you will understand this has been a troublesome beast from the start and i modified and modernised a turd and made a useful mostly outdoor chair capable of the rough treatment my lady hands out to every chair she has had and not strand her in mud or break her tipping over etc and so far she has loved using it but having upgraded the motors to 6mph 4 pole from puma 40 i now have the correct controler brain thingy and need to find the correct joystick that will work on it pref a nice simple one as there are no seat or light functions needed and pref one without a dirty great screen if thats possible heres pics of the new brain,i see on the puma 40 i got for tina the cable running from joystick is a bus type thing and just plugs in and looking on ebay i see a few simple dynamic dx joysticks but not certain they right any help would be great,then i can give our @woody his vr2 back he kindly lent us!
my hope is adding the correct power control system will help with her slogging through the mud and over tree stumps etc a bit less of an effort for the poor chair which so far has been good except the weedy controller hopefully 90a is better than 60a,i guess it is?
anyhow a joystick that will work is my question,thanks for any helps,peace butred cheers :joint
dx2 004.JPG
dx2 006.JPG
dx2 007.JPG
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Burgerman » 28 Jan 2020, 20:28

Any modern DX joystick. REM 24 are quite cheap and common in good condition on eBay. And metal.


This guy has bbeen selling them for years. I got one for 39. He increased price...
Mine was absolutely as new, not with paint missing etc as shown. Hence feedback!


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Invacare-ACS ... Swk1JWgtoe
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby LROBBINS » 28 Jan 2020, 20:39

The DX2-90 is 90Amps continuous + a boost, though I don't recall how much the boost is or how long it can last.
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Burgerman » 28 Jan 2020, 20:42

Its programmable up to 120A and up to 10 secs. But default is lower like 2 secs. With the software we have you can set it to whatever you want. But it just rolls back power sooner and for longer. Its also got some wiring loom saving stuff too. That will limit what you can actually get. Probably to do with invacares fire problems...
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 29 Jan 2020, 18:51

Burgerman wrote:Its programmable up to 120A and up to 10 secs. But default is lower like 2 secs. With the software we have you can set it to whatever you want. But it just rolls back power sooner and for longer. Its also got some wiring loom saving stuff too. That will limit what you can actually get. Probably to do with invacares fire problems...

hi bm i been having an issue getting the wizard prog up and running, well that bit the first download went ok,
the 2nd bit the add on or whatever you call it did not run like the first but goes to a screen that says something about drive c and converting?idk what it meant but tried connecting and it does get comms active and i can read the settings currently on there but i cannot alter anything so guess the 2nd download bit has to work at same time but idk how to do that?
on another problem i have looked through my collection of wiring harness bit and found the right cables and ends for the 2 motors and brakes to connect to the brain my only problem is finding the correct connector for the main power lead to brain?is there a common cable type as it dont look like a standard enclosed lucar type and i would like to get it right first time,also should the brain be bolted to a heatsink?the original vr2 bolts to a ali heatsink but the new brain is to big for that can i do away with heatsink if its in good vented space?cheers for any helps,peace cheers
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby steves1977uk » 29 Jan 2020, 18:55

Its programmable up to 120A and up to 10 secs. But default is lower like 2 secs. With the software we have you can set it to whatever you want. But it just rolls back power sooner and for longer. Its also got some wiring loom saving stuff too. That will limit what you can actually get. Probably to do with invacares fire problems...


Never knew Invacare had fire problems BM! :o How long ago was this? Crikey, that's put me off from ever wanting to have another Invacare chair! :fencing

Edit: Found it... http://sci.rutgers.edu/forum/showthread ... heelchairs Scary stuff! :? czy

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