Drive-from WAV-Evo

[jakethestudent]

Hi everyone, back again and a little wiser of the WAV market

Our design group is set to work with Sirus (cannot recommend this company highly enough, their devotion to detail is highly impressive) in designing a fully automated version of the Fiat Doblo WAV-Evo to be driven from the wheelchair.

Would this be a product that anyone is interested in?

[Burgerman]

Nope. Not me, Why? I get in from the rear. I cant load my model planes, groceries, etc. Cant get my dog in without it being in my way. Cant turn around and come out forwards. Etc. way too small. Not practical, even if you have no family.

Quite apart from which its a fiat! And an ugly little van. Given the choice I would much prefer to drive something cool. And fast. With loads of toys and fat tyres.

Have a look here. http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/images- ... -roadshow/ Is this what you were thinking of "designing"??? The VW ones are big enough. The chryslers, like mine, hondas vans, toyota vans (all us conversions) are big enough. The kia sedonna is too small, to properly manoever about and get close to the wheel, the fiats, and the small kia is way too small even to go shopping alone with no options for your gear!

[jakethestudent]

Clearly a man who knows what he likes (and i tend to agree about the fiat).

We were thinking something similar to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMiWBnzUnPM but on the driver's side. Surely the ability to keep the rear seat layout holds some benefits to someone with a family?

[Burgerman]

My thoughts on that?

a) if it is going to take even 1/4 of that time to operate the thing then my new powerchair would have got me there without a van faster... Is it in slow motion?

b) theres no point in any modified car for a wheelchair driver that does not keep both the rear seat, to throw your junk on, as well as a tail gate / boot to put bigger stuff. If you are not going to be able to take freinds, family, fishing gear etc or go shopping theres no point!

c) That doesent look either long enough, high enough, or "spacy" enough for the average normal hi end powerchair. If it is then it will suit some.

d) its ugly! How is it any better than what I drive now? http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/images- ... p-1200.jpg It just has less options and takes more modifiucation and has less interior space, that you really need.

[LROBBINS]

We have both a Vantage Grand Caravan conversion (1997) and a slightly newer dropped-floor and kneeling suspension Kangoo. Neither is drive from chair - they are used to transport Rachele. We use the Kangoo, and avoid the Caravan, whenever possible (basically except when two different people have to transport at different times on the same day, or today when I was taking half a chair to the welder and had Rachi along as well). On our crowded narrow Siena roads, the Caravan, which in the U.S. seemed "compact" seems like a beast. BTW, the rear ramp on the Kangoo is all of 1/2 meter long yet gives a modest slope with the dropped floor and knee. Fish-scale or right angle parking is also much more common here than parallel.

Ciao,
Lenny

[Martin O Refurbisher]

I didn't know Fiat had gone back to making automatics? Manual transmission is out for me. Even the Ducato is smaller than I need for self, driver, GF, dog (lies across whole rear seat), chair or two and kit! Now I'm getting a WAV, I can't see that yours would work for me! So, adding BMs comments, who is it aimed at? Does your user profile exist?

Best,

Martin

[Burgerman]

After previous experience of fiat cars and ducato vans, I wouldnt want one as a gift.

[redandwhite]

I would actually accept a Fiat as a gift if it was offered, but highly unlikely to happen. Build quality has improved considerably over the last few years but as Martin rightly points out they do not offer an automatic so it would not fit the original brief as a WAV with the wheelchair access to to drivers seat.

It is a difficult brief as most people will require the interior space of a larger vehicle but not everybody can afford the cost of something like BMs, or will be nervous about driving and parking something of those dimensions

Colin

[ex-Gooserider]

My main wish is that some one of the OEM manufacturers would come out with a "conversion ready" vehicle... Something with a dropped / wheelchair appropriate floor, maybe a pre-installed ramp, or provision for it as an option, and so on. No adapted controls, but make provisions to make it as easy to install them as possible, and so forth.

It seems outrageous to me that it costs as much for an adapted van like BM's as it does. Seems to me that most of the reason is that one company builds the vehicle, and then another company basically has to take it back apart, throw out a lot of it, and build it a second time. I would think that it wouldn't cost all that much more than a non-converted vehicle if an auto company was to build a drop-floor version of it's minivan from scratch. Not much more material, about the same labor, dealer and distribution networks exist, and I suspect that there would be enough of a market to justify it, considering how many companies there are in the aftermarket conversion business...

Anyone know some HP auto industry execs?

ex-Gooserider

[Martin O Refurbisher]

BM has pointed out the range of options:

- Crane into adapted car;
- ramp into adapted vehicle,
- carry in low-cost custom trailer (great where space permits),

or, and the only choice if you need to drive from the Wheelchair, a WAV.

Whilst I don't need to drive from the wheelchair, A WAV will suit my needs, but I can't seee anything further away from them than Jake's proposal. The starting point with any such design should be market analysis - what does the custoemr want, and what can they buy.

For most of us, that is dictated by Motability being willing to approve it for financing by them, once the user has been assessed and a WAV has been prescribed.

Jake, we all want to be constructive, but our complaint is that "nanny state" designers don't listen, and you appear to be proposing to do more of the same (See BM & ex-Gooserider). To try to help, can I suggest you start with what people can go for, and not with your ideas as to what they ought to want? Your route will likely lead to zero sales, hence a huge waste of your time (and ours, yet again, because whatever we say, if people do listen, then then ignore what they have been told!).

You could start with a simple poll as to features, advantages and benefits. You list everything you have in mind and ask people to respond as to how much these features matter to them, and why. But please, keep it simple!

Best,

Martin

[jakethestudent]

Cheers for the response guys, we have been trying to design around user input as much as possible attending the recent Naidex convention and asking several drive-from users about how they use their vehicles.

Just to help me out, roughly how much of this forum's parking is done in disabled parking bays? Ie. if our design could be accessed in a normal width bay, would anyone anyone actually benefit?

Thanks guys

[LROBBINS]

Jake,

If you've ever been to Italy you already know that handicapper spaces are few and far between and most often occupied by cars without handicapper tag, or on occasion with a tag that belonged to a dead relative - last year it was the chief of the Rome police who got caught doing this. Thus, we most often do use normal spaces, they're mostly pull-in and they certainly don't have any extra space along side. We really liked our side-entry Chrysler when we lived in the U.S., now we far prefer the rear-entry Kangoo.

Ciao,
Lenny

[Martin O Refurbisher]

Jake,
Here on the South coast there are many disabled bays, but often full. With a rear ramp, you need to keep the rear space clear. With a side ramp, even a wide disabled bay does not guarantee enough space to use, so one has to seek out a protected space, such as alongside a kerb. It is unlikely that there is an ideal solution.

Best,

Martin

[ex-Gooserider]

Not in the least a realistic solution, but probably the only "ideal" solution would be to have both side and rear entry, as there are use cases for each that are ideal and wouldn't work for the other... Rear entry is great in parking lots (bays? if I understand the UKlish properly ) where the cars are side by side, and even a so called "van accessible" space is chancy due to idiots parking on the cross-hatching. OTOH, parking nose-to-tail along the side of the street is going to be a problem for the rear entry, but probably work well for the side entry....

Used to be a common saying, "Tell me what kind of accident you are going to have, and I'll tell you what sort of protective gear to wear" - the WAV version is "Tell me where you are going to park, and I'll tell you what kind of entry to get..."

Trouble is, I'm likely to encounter both kinds of parking depending where I'm going on a given trip. If going to the local shopping center, I will be in a side by side lot. OTOH, going to a friends house, or heading into Boston, the odds are pretty good that I'll be parallel parking, likely in a space that is only 6" longer than my vehicle...

Of course in the US, the options aren't all that great - far as I know, all the "drive from chair" capable converted vehicles are side entry. This is also the most common choice for any of the converted vehicles. The few rear entry conversions are passenger only, and even then the wheelchair passenger ends up in the back, as the dropped floor doesn't go up as far as the front seats.

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

I think the Ricon lift, in my VW T4 Caravelle (Eurovan) was the best option. It was on the side, but shorter than the Side entry ramp vans. I prefer the side entry either way over rear though. Even in a shopping centre car park. Rear ramps get in the way and myopic old people will walk and drive into the ramp... Plus it limits luggage, seating etc.

Side ramp? Just pull into an end space, or take two at 45 degrees. Or three or four if its empty! If its full I wouldnt be going there anyway. It protects your space/ramp. Never find a problem with parking attendents.

I prefer to park at the side of the road and open the ramp onto the road too! Just wait for a big gap. If its busy, park facing the other way and get out onto the pavement. Every time I park at the side of the road, unless I purposely choose end of block some idiot parks behind me, so rear ramp wouldnt work well.

I dont usually use disabled bays, too small...

But then everybody is dfferent.

[ex-Gooserider]

Agreed, a lift can be shorter than a ramp, but from what I've seen in the US, the lifts only come on full-size vans, not the minivans. With a full size HP van you run into yet a third problem - HP vans get their roof raised, along with possibly only a slight floor lowering. This increases the overall height of the vehicle so that you will have problems getting into parking garages - which are very common at medical facilities among other places.... (Offhand, at least two of the facilities I visit most often have garages...)

The other option I've seen suggested with side entry vans is to keep a large traffic safety cone attached to a rope the right length in the car, and use it to "stake out" the needed space for the ramp. The rope discourages the cone from walking away, and most people don't really want to run over a big cone...

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

Which is why my next van will be a drive from wheelchair CW with lift.
Here is my old VW with liftt but without a lowered floor.

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/vw-cara ... sabled.htm

Lowered floor ones are also available. Build quality on these is massively better than the chryslers.

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/images- ... b-side.jpg

More... http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/images- ... -roadshow/

[ex-Gooserider]

Don't know why you guys insist on putting the steering wheel on the wrong side.... Seriously, I don't think those VW models are available in the US, though it does look like a good setup. At the very least, they don't get mentioned as an option when talking to the converted vehicle folks. That I know of, the only options for a mini-van sized conversion in the US are the Chrysler / Dodge minis, the Honda Oddysey, and the Toyota Sienna. I have heard some folks doing a partial conversion on the Honda Element, but reportedly that only works with small chairs, and doesn't really leave anything in the way of space for additional passengers or cargo...

Not sure what sort of vehicle you mean by a "CW" - doesn't match my mental list of car makes.

One thing that it would seem to me like a good idea on lifts that would give them a really big advantage over a ramp is if they could be made to have a side entry, as opposed to an end entry the way they all seem to now. With an end entry, you basically have to have a clear space that is the length of the lift platform, plus the length of the chair and then some, in order to get on and off the platform. This isn't all that much less than a ramp needs. If you had a side entry, so that you entered the platform from alongside the van, then all you'd need is the length of the platform itself. Only hard part might be doing the turn on the platform so that you could then head into the van, but I don't think it would be that hard to do... However it might be a challenge to design a platform that would be strong enough if you couldn't have the rails on both sides that you get with an end entry.

ex-Gooserider

Which is why my next van will be a drive from wheelchair CW with lift.
Here is my old VW with liftt but without a lowered floor.

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/vw-cara ... sabled.htm

Lowered floor ones are also available. Build quality on these is massively better than the chryslers.

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/images- ... b-side.jpg

More... http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/images- ... -roadshow/