VW T5, wheelchair access

[MViper]

Hello

I'm a passenger in 5 years old VW Multivan T5. Right now we're using the good old foldable ramp from the back of the car. But it's time to get a bit "modernised". So I am looking for a hidravlic ramp for side access. The van has slide doors on both sides. I'm also using powered wheelchair (Invacare Storm3 True track) and I am afraid the doors will be too narrow for side entering/exiting.

It would be also great if this ramp would go with me in the van and it would lock my wheelchair down to the floor. Something like dock for wheelchairs.

Any ideas where should I check it out?

I am from Slovenia (Europe), eventually I could visit Germany, Italy, Austria for a good solution.

[Burgerman]

In the UK I used to have a T4 van. And a power wheelchair. It was borderline for height inside and especially when entering as the door height on the side doors is very marginal.

For this reason alone you should be very careful before spending money on a lift/tie down. Especially as the T5 is worse than my T4 was in this respect. Measure carefully! Remember that the lift itself has some thickness too! It goes INSIDE the van and sits on the floor?

At least the cheaper lifts such as the Ricon "clearway" lift that I had. Some can go under the van. These are OK but are attacked by road salt, and can have corrosion problems and cost much more.

Because of the above many of the T5 conversions have a lowered floor. Which basically means ripping apart a new van. Some are lowered a little. Some a lot... Some right through so you can drive or ride as passenger up front.

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/VW-cara ... lchair.htm A lowered floor one. T4, T5, are all similar here. NOTE the reduced ground clearance with an under floor ramp. Compared to my old T4 van...
http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/vw-cara ... sabled.htm

[MViper]

Thank you for an answer.

So I guess rear entry would be far more practical to mount a lift? I need to visit some guy who builds custom lifts. I really don't want to sell this van, it's practicaly new, it only has around 70.000 miles (110-120.000 km). I also wouldn't like to rebuild floor or customize it too much. My father and brother still needs it for their needs (vineyard stuff, some business specific stuff (ladders, paints..), so I would like to keep it as stock as possible in that respect.

I need to check the height and width of the side doors.

Is Viano/Vito any more wheelchair users friendly?

[Burgerman]

No.
70k?

Thats a lot! Swap it for a ready to go Chrysler? The easy solution...

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/images- ... p-1200.jpg

[MViper]

ermm.. do we understand each other? I meant T5 has mileage around 70.000 miles and it's 5 years old

When bought new it was around 45.000 euros, now it's worth half of that and it's a great van, better than Viano.


Voyagers.. Well here in Slovenia, the Voyagers are made in Austria. Are pretty rare vehicles and synonimous for poor reliability and pretty high servicing costs. Also there isn't any decent official seller.

But from where is this Voyager? Any infos?

[Burgerman]

Chrysler build quality is not up to VW standards.

But theres 165 dollars to a uk pound.

Making a US Rollx lowered floor, minivan cheap. In the UK the lowered floor VW T5 is about 59 to 62k depending on spec. Cutting and modifying isnt cheap. The Chryslers are about 10k cheaper. And drive more like cars. Especially the big 6 cylinder 3.8 or 4.0 petrol ones.

So getting one from the US as I did saved me about 24k...

NEW OR USED INC VW, HONDA ETC...
http://www.rollxvans.com/currentinvento ... &VanType=1

MINIVANS http://www.rollxvans.com/minivans.aspx

[MViper]

Thanx

You are from UK?

So, you think it's better idea to buy already modified vehicle from USA and adapt it to euro standards than modifing existing van?

Hm.. are all of those car V6 petrol versions?

I really like those VW 2.0 TDI engine It does around 7-9 litres per 100 km

[Burgerman]

Yes they are made cheaper, better and in large quantities like a production line in the US.

And there was 2 dollars to 1 pound at the time I bought mine. Making it about half the price of a UK one...

Adapt? About 1 change. Rear fog light switch, and a special test like an MOT.

Yes they are all smooth powerful 6 cylinder pertol. Thats a good thing. Never understood the point of deisels. They do everything worse than a petrol engine, wear faster, need a turbo to have enough power to use, have a very narrow band of useful power so need about 11 gears, need oil changes every 100 yards so all that carbon doesent grind your engine to atoms, etc.

If economy worries you get a LPG conversion. About 1k fitted, or about 1/3rd that if you buy on ebay and fit it yourself. Its easy.

Thats much better than diesel! And it doesent clatter or stink either. So you get smoother, faster, quieter, greater flexibility, cheap fuel AND an extra petrol tank...

[MViper]

Mate you're underestimating diesels

2.0 TDI, 174 HP, it reaches 100 km/h (62 mph) in around 10 seconds with great torque (less gear changing), twin turbo and very good economy. You can also change ECU to reach around 210-220 HPs. It beats the living s*** out of 3.2 V6 from the same factory with, I say again much much better economy

LPG.. well.. you need to buy good LPG if you don't want to fixing engine valves every now and then


Of course importing from USA is an option. Nice option, the problems is I don't have a slighest idea who would service those cars here. And I really wouldn't want to wait 2-3 weeks for parts to arrive from USA

Adapting. Well, we would need change of lights, tacho's and get a special test. But that's easy.


Have any idea if there's any similar site with wheelchair "ready" cars from Europe?

[Burgerman]

Mate you're underestimating diesels
2.0 TDI, 174 HP, it reaches 100 km/h (62 mph) in around 10 seconds with great torque (less gear changing), twin turbo and very good economy. You can also change ECU to reach around 210-220 HPs. It beats the living s*** out of 3.2 V6 from the same factory with, I say again much much better economy

LPG.. well.. you need to buy good LPG if you don't want to fixing engine valves every now and then

I used to build and tune race engines for drag racing, scratch build turbo and fuel injection systems, and design and build dynamometers to measure all this stuff in a previous life.

Torque has nothing to do with the amount of gear changes. It also has nothing to do with power. Since power is torque x rpm. So low reving with lots of torque gives exactly the same result as high reving with half the torque. All that changes is final drive ratio. The AREA under the torque curve is whats important. RPM range.

What matters is engine flexibility. So a petrol engine that makes great power from idle to 6k redline will ALWAYS need less gearchanges than any deisel. The reason for this is simple. The turbo it NEEDS to make it move.

At low rpms a diesel doesent have the power to pull the skin of a rice pudding... So it needs a SMALL turbo to allow it to boost just above idle. Say 1.5 to 2k rpm. Then it makes power.

Trouble is deisel burns slow, and the tiny turbo gets in the way at higher rpms. So very soon its all over. Deisels cannot rev high.

So the usable power is in a narrow limited band. This is why in a pretty futile atempt at flexibility some advanced deisels have two or three turbos and a complex control system to try and get the same flexibility that a petrol engine naturally has.

And if a petrol engine has a turbo too it totally murders the diesel!

My BIKE engine with 1150cc made 290 BHP dyno tested at the rear wheel. And thats with a basic draw through carburated non intercooled setup! And it pulled from 1000 rpm to 11,000 rpm.

No I totally understand engines, and do not underestimate deisels. The best place for one is in a constant RPM aplication like the bottom of a boat or a cement mixer/generator...

As far as "good" lpg is concerned, it doesent need to be "good". Its better for engine wear, no bore wash, no droplets, perfect atomisation, higher octane (anti knock) and is even better as a fuel than petrol is!

And you can also use propane, Also high octane. So if you get a big heating propane tank outside your house and decant it to your car, then the fuel is about half the cost again! Although that would be illegal... Technically. I used to run propane as an enrichment fuel for a nitrous system.

[Burgerman]

And yes I know I spelled deseasel wrong but I cant be bothered to fix it above!

[ex-Gooserider]

I would agree on the measure carefully part, but at least some ramps (as opposed to LIFTS) fold up and sit in the doorway, so they don't really take any floor - ceiling height away.

Some lifts also fold up and stow vertically in the door opening - in fact all the ones in the different paratransit service vans (Mostly full size Chevy / Ford vans)that I've used did that. It does take some interior space though, and you have to watch the width to make sure that both the lift platform and the hydraulics on each side that make it work will fit.

Not sure what the "Voyager" in your area is, in the US it is one of the series of minivans that are sold by Dodge / Chrysler. These aren't the ultimate, but do have a pretty good overall record for reliability.

As to BM's comments on purchasing a US van that is already converted, a great deal depends on both exchange rates and local tax rules. One of the things that saved him a lot of money is the way the UK VAT tax rules on stuff for the handicapped work - if he bought a UK van and had it converted, he would have had to pay VAT on the unconverted van. By getting one already converted in the US and importing it, the entire vehicle was VAT exempt. I have no idea how things work in your country, so it is definitely something that you would need to look into for the details.

Another thing to note is that while 70k miles and 5 years old may mean a vehicle that has lots of life left in it to you and I (Our current vehicle is a 2000 Dodge Grand Caravan w ~180K miles), it is an antique in the eyes of the vehicle conversion folks. The major conversion places in the US won't touch anything more than 2-3 years old or over 50K miles or anything that has ever had an accident... You might be able to retrofit a ramp or lift, but I doubt that you'd be able to get any more radical upgrades done.

Lockdown systems are usually independent of the ramp / lift - most of the ones used in the US have a plate that bolts to the floor and a bracket that hangs a 16mm bolt off the bottom of your chair. The bolt locks into the plate sort of like the "5th wheel" hitch on a tractor trailer rig.

Hope this helps,
ex-Gooserider

[MViper]

Mate you're underestimating diesels
2.0 TDI, 174 HP, it reaches 100 km/h (62 mph) in around 10 seconds with great torque (less gear changing), twin turbo and very good economy. You can also change ECU to reach around 210-220 HPs. It beats the living s*** out of 3.2 V6 from the same factory with, I say again much much better economy

LPG.. well.. you need to buy good LPG if you don't want to fixing engine valves every now and then

I used to build and tune race engines for drag racing, scratch build turbo and fuel injection systems, and design and build dynamometers to measure all this stuff in a previous life.

Torque has nothing to do with the amount of gear changes. It also has nothing to do with power. Since power is torque x rpm. So low reving with lots of torque gives exactly the same result as high reving with half the torque. All that changes is final drive ratio. The AREA under the torque curve is whats important. RPM range.

What matters is engine flexibility. So a petrol engine that makes great power from idle to 6k redline will ALWAYS need less gearchanges than any deisel. The reason for this is simple. The turbo it NEEDS to make it move.

At low rpms a diesel doesent have the power to pull the skin of a rice pudding... So it needs a SMALL turbo to allow it to boost just above idle. Say 1.5 to 2k rpm. Then it makes power.

Trouble is deisel burns slow, and the tiny turbo gets in the way at higher rpms. So very soon its all over. Deisels cannot rev high.

So the usable power is in a narrow limited band. This is why in a pretty futile atempt at flexibility some advanced deisels have two or three turbos and a complex control system to try and get the same flexibility that a petrol engine naturally has.

And if a petrol engine has a turbo too it totally murders the diesel!

My BIKE engine with 1150cc made 290 BHP dyno tested at the rear wheel. And thats with a basic draw through carburated non intercooled setup! And it pulled from 1000 rpm to 11,000 rpm.

No I totally understand engines, and do not underestimate deisels. The best place for one is in a constant RPM aplication like the bottom of a boat or a cement mixer/generator...

As far as "good" lpg is concerned, it doesent need to be "good". Its better for engine wear, no bore wash, no droplets, perfect atomisation, higher octane (anti knock) and is even better as a fuel than petrol is!

And you can also use propane, Also high octane. So if you get a big heating propane tank outside your house and decant it to your car, then the fuel is about half the cost again! Although that would be illegal... Technically. I used to run propane as an enrichment fuel for a nitrous system.

I agree on some parts. But diesel's have more torque in lower rpm's (turbo powered of course), so you need less revving for same acceleration. I agree, diesels have lower flexibility, most of them revs fine only from 1500-4500 rpm. Diesel withouth turbo is only good for heavier vehicles or catching good economy, like SDI's with 4-5l, per 100 km.

Just look at, for example BMW cars. All the diesel engines (true - turbo powered) are on the par with petrol engine, sometimes even quicker. For example, the old E60 series (previous 5 series), the 530d diesel engine had better acceleration from 80-120 kmh than M5.

Merc's 3.0 CDI is way faster than VAG's, petrol 3.2L V6.

But I completely agree, petrol + turbo is much much faster combination than diesels.

Don't get me wrong, I am not diesel fan, I prefer petrol engines with nice V6 or V8 inside. But for a van and mostly for cruising and looking for nice economy, I would think twice of having diesel or petrol engine.



Now that we know, what you were doing, the two of us will make a project how to make my Storm3 TT faster

[MViper]

I would agree on the measure carefully part, but at least some ramps (as opposed to LIFTS) fold up and sit in the doorway, so they don't really take any floor - ceiling height away.

Some lifts also fold up and stow vertically in the door opening - in fact all the ones in the different paratransit service vans (Mostly full size Chevy / Ford vans)that I've used did that. It does take some interior space though, and you have to watch the width to make sure that both the lift platform and the hydraulics on each side that make it work will fit.

Not sure what the "Voyager" in your area is, in the US it is one of the series of minivans that are sold by Dodge / Chrysler. These aren't the ultimate, but do have a pretty good overall record for reliability.

As to BM's comments on purchasing a US van that is already converted, a great deal depends on both exchange rates and local tax rules. One of the things that saved him a lot of money is the way the UK VAT tax rules on stuff for the handicapped work - if he bought a UK van and had it converted, he would have had to pay VAT on the unconverted van. By getting one already converted in the US and importing it, the entire vehicle was VAT exempt. I have no idea how things work in your country, so it is definitely something that you would need to look into for the details.

Another thing to note is that while 70k miles and 5 years old may mean a vehicle that has lots of life left in it to you and I (Our current vehicle is a 2000 Dodge Grand Caravan w ~180K miles), it is an antique in the eyes of the vehicle conversion folks. The major conversion places in the US won't touch anything more than 2-3 years old or over 50K miles or anything that has ever had an accident... You might be able to retrofit a ramp or lift, but I doubt that you'd be able to get any more radical upgrades done.

Lockdown systems are usually independent of the ramp / lift - most of the ones used in the US have a plate that bolts to the floor and a bracket that hangs a 16mm bolt off the bottom of your chair. The bolt locks into the plate sort of like the "5th wheel" hitch on a tractor trailer rig.

Hope this helps,
ex-Gooserider

This is Voyager in our area. It's 2.8 diesel, I think daimler's engine, not too great comparing to other similar sized vans. Also the van is not on the market anymore. There were couple of Chrysler dealerships, but most of them went bust. The van is also as I've said built in Austria, had electronic problems which are hard to fix if you can find the part anyway. So it's a big risk here.

The vans which sells well, have good support and are pretty decent to drive are: Renault Trafic/Opel Vivaro/Nissan something, same cars, different badge. There are also Merc's, Vito and Viano (more luxurious version of Vito), some Volkswagens T5 - best van, most expensive van and some Peugeot/Citroen vans (like E7, but it's called Jumper here). One Korean van and that's about it.

There also are family MPV's, like VW Sharan, Peugeot 807, Renault Espace, Seat Alhambra, Ford Galaxy but that would be extremely expensive option to convert it.

Yea, about importing the van from USA, there's another 20% of taxes, a new homologation needs to be made, change couple of parts and in the end of the day, it's not so cheap and you don't have any service areas. Some friends imported some euro cars, like BMW X5, X6, 335i. They saved around 30% of the original price, but have difficulties with some car parts which are different for US market.

I am not sure, how is it with adapted vehicles. I need to research.

I didn't know that. So you need practicaly new car to have it converted. Interesting and understandable. I'm so envious at you guys from USA, you have so much choices, from wheelchairs to cars to other accessories..

All I can choose is 4 types of wheelchair, 10 years old converted cars and that's about it. If you want something more, you'll pay eeeeeeeeeextra.


Sure it helps, thanx very much!

[Martin O Refurbisher]

MViper
Earlier you asked Burgerman (BM) if he is from UK.

BM is in UK and owns the site. If you look at the personal profile, there is a space for you to say where you are from. BM and many others use this - will you please do so also? Since most members are in UK, BM tends to write for his himself and his UK members, and others, like ex-Gooserider who are in USA make that clear, to try to avoid confusion.

I assume that you drive on the right as in US, so a converted US vehicle makes sense.

An alternative would be a fleet disposal of a Wheelchair Adapted Vehicle (WAV).

One good souce of these, usually 3 or 5 years old, is Shoreham Vehicle Auctions (SVA). SVA seem to sell 10 - 20 ex Motability (largest fleet in UK - a charity providing lease vehicles to the disabled - I have one, as do many others on the forum) vehicles per month. For availability of WAVs, telephone. Note that you can bid on-line. Whilst I have no financial interest in them, I know them, and have found them totally trustworthy.

SVA are on the South Coast of England at Shoreham, near my workshop in Hove, and I have seen some incredible car deals go through there.

www.shorehamvehicleauctions.com

Best,

Martin

[Burgerman]

Theres actually as much if not more choice here in the UK. But mostly smaller stuff, or KIA cars or whatever.

There are a few smaller VW caddy or fiat vanh conversions that let you ride up front or drive. But they are hopeless if you want to go shopping or flying your radio controlled planes etc. Because there is either 1 extra seat or none. And you enter in the same place you would store your shopping!

See www.wheelchairdriver.com/images-mobility-roadshow/

[MViper]

MViper
Earlier you asked Burgerman (BM) if he is from UK.

BM is in UK and owns the site. If you look at the personal profile, there is a space for you to say where you are from. BM and many others use this - will you please do so also? Since most members are in UK, BM tends to write for his himself and his UK members, and others, like ex-Gooserider who are in USA make that clear, to try to avoid confusion.

I assume that you drive on the right as in US, so a converted US vehicle makes sense.

An alternative would be a fleet disposal of a Wheelchair Adapted Vehicle (WAV).

One good souce of these, usually 3 or 5 years old, is Shoreham Vehicle Auctions (SVA). SVA seem to sell 10 - 20 ex Motability (largest fleet in UK - a charity providing lease vehicles to the disabled - I have one, as do many others on the forum) vehicles per month. For availability of WAVs, telephone. Note that you can bid on-line. Whilst I have no financial interest in them, I know them, and have found them totally trustworthy.

SVA are on the South Coast of England at Shoreham, near my workshop in Hove, and I have seen some incredible car deals go through there.

http://www.shorehamvehicleauctions.com

Best,

Martin

Yes, I know he's admin and I've red most of his articles about wheelchairs, cars, etc. I'm very interested in his work

I was under impression that he's from USA and just temporary lives in UK.

Sorry about my profile, forgot to update it. Now I did. Apologies.


Yes, US converted vehicle makes sense. Of course it does. I just need to research about import taxes on disabled equipment and if there's a guy who would service the car here.


Thank you very much for the link! So these are mostly fine vehicles in good condition?

[MViper]

Theres actually as much if not more choice here in the UK. But mostly smaller stuff, or KIA cars or whatever.

There are a few smaller VW caddy or fiat vanh conversions that let you ride up front or drive. But they are hopeless if you want to go shopping or flying your radio controlled planes etc. Because there is either 1 extra seat or none. And you enter in the same place you would store your shopping!

See http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/images- ... -roadshow/

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/images-mobility-roadshow/side-entry-drive-from-wheelchair-vw-lwb-side.jpg

I'm looking for a similiar solution to this. But as I see it, this is not powered version. Spring system?

Well, I'm not really a fan od Caddy's, I was couple of times in those cars and I couldn't see nothing in front of the car, couldn't prepare for corners, pretty dangerous but adreanline full ride

Of course the cars were completely stock.

[Burgerman]

All those vans/cars have powered ramps, and lowered floors so that they each have about 56 to 58 inch headroom. So powerchair, line 0f vision etc all no problem in any of them.

All can be used independently to drive from. I didnt post all the 100 or so photor I took, and only photographed vehicles that can be used as wheelchair drivers. From a powerchair. They can all be used as a passenger too of course.

hERE ARE 3 i WOULD recommend. All do what you are looking for.


http://www.jubileeauto.net/mobility.php

http://www.sirusautomotive.co.uk

http://www.gmcoachwork.co.uk/Drive-from ... ivate.html

And bekker will import rollx US vehicles for you...

http://www.alfredbekker.co.uk

[MViper]

Cheers, thanx for the links, exactly what I'm looking for - looking to be a passenger in second row having side access. If possible with adaptation of current vehicle. I can't drive the car.

Thank you for all the links again, I also found something useful on Brook Miller website (http://www.brookmiller.co.uk/caravelle.php).


Wish we could meet somewhere, to buy you a drink

[Burgerman]

Millfields hotel, public bar, every evening... Its across the road about 1/4 mile from my house!

[Martin O Refurbisher]

Another possibility is to look for firms who make wheelchair accessible taxis. I believe Allied i nsCotland did a large fleet of Ciroen Minibuses recently, some for Motability. I'll look for more details as I'm also interested.

Best,

Martin

[MViper]

Millfields hotel, public bar, every evening... Its across the road about 1/4 mile from my house!

I'll better get on my way then

I'll call you in 2 years time, when I arrive with my untrusty unreliable Storm

[ex-Gooserider]

From the picture, your version of a Voyager doesn't look much different from the ones here in the US, except that far as I know, we don't have the diesel engine option.

(There are very few diesel car choices in the US, for the most part the only diesels you'll see over here are trucks. Since the US has always had relatively cheap gas, it is only recently that fuel economy has been a big concern for us, so the diesel cars never got popular. Now it would be hard to do a large scale switch to diesel, as all our refineries and distribution networks are set up to deal with large volumes of gas, and it would be difficult to change this.)

While there are a lot of conversion companies in the US, the vast majority do mostly the popular minivans - the assorted Chrysler / Dodge products, the Honda Odyssey, and the Toyota Sienna. There are a few outfits that do other sorts of vehicles from sports cars to pickup trucks, but you are talking big bucks as soon as you start getting away from the minivans...

For passenger service, the two big choices tend to be either the same minivans (some with a rear entry conversion) or full size vans with lifts and a raised roof.

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

Mine is ROLLX right hand drive, with a set of bigger 18 inch wheels / 245/50/18 tyres fitted and IS from the US. It was 24k pounds cheaper this way!!! I kid you not.

2 dollars to a uk pound exactly when I ordered it... So it will look pretty similar!