Pros and Cons - side load or rear load?

[Mark]

I'm gradually moving towards getting a drive-from w/c car / mpv. I've graduated from:
1. loading my manual w/c by hand
2. Powerchair up portable ramps into car
3. Powerchair hoist fitted to car(s)
But even getting from hoist at back of car to driver's seat is now harder and harder, so I'm probably going to have to go the drive-in wheelchair route.
I can't decide which type of loading (side or rear) I would find more frustrating in terms of being blocked in by other drivers, and / or finding a space at the side where I could deploy a side ramp.
Please could I hear advice, experiences etc. from forum members who use these vehicles to help me decide. I like the idea of side loading as these vehicles seem to have room to turn inside so I can come out forwards in the F55, however they are much more expensive even (very) second-hand. I probably will try and find something cheap to try and see how I get on, so if I have to change it won't have cost me much.
All experiences and advice gratefully received,
Mark

[Burgerman]

If you enter via the rear then all your storage space is gone.

I fly model helis and planes, go shopping, etc. I NEED the rear hatch, and back seat to throw all my gear on.

[Burgerman]

I like the idea of side loading as these vehicles seem to have room to turn inside so I can come out forwards in the F55, however they are much more expensive even (very) second-hand.

Go on the net, look at Canada and the US for used, or recently converted. There are thousands of the things, like new, for what you would pay for an old rusty one in the UK.

[Mark]

I guess parking spaces are more tricky with side loading because even marked disabled spaces don't have enough "protected" space at the side. Any tips and techniques that help?

[Burgerman]

Yep. I don't use them. Or I use 2... And land at 45 degrees.

Just be creative. Side of road no problem, in a car park, park sideways take two spaces and leave a plastic board "wet floor" sign that now says keep clear of ramp, if its busy. But mostly I just use end of row spaces.

Wherever the ramp is it makes parking a pain. And street parking with a rear ramp is very hard. You wont get back in it...

And where will you put your shopping ?

[dannos85]

Myself and my Fiancée (both wheelchair bound) travel together in our side entry Chrysler Voyager Braun Entervan,
There is room for us both in wheelchairs to sit up front with all the car seats removed, accept for the 3-seater bench in the rear with all the leg room a passenger could ask for. We can share the driving, take turns. Even us both being in the car, there is JUST enough room to turn my F55, plenty of room if the bench is in the rear most position. We have a wheelchair tie down either side, between the driver/passenger position is a 2.5inch frame work that holds the computers for my space drive system, on top of that is seatbelt clips and an armrest, this can be an obstruction at times.
If you are the only wheelchair user in your house hold then room in a Braun/Rollx conversion van is basically endless,
Burgerman made a good point about room for your shopping and I quite agree...
I'd never have a rear entry vehicle now.

Import vehicles are great if you want to save a bit of cash on a near new purchase, but mine is a right hand drive that was constructed by SDL with a side ramp that deploys on the left. The 2.8 Litre Diesel is more than adequate (actually a Turbo Diesel) but Chrysler don't shout about it.

The VW Caddy is a nice rear entry van, but where do you put the shopping?
Nothing worse than having shopping fall all over the floor on the first turn of the journey home.
If there is no one around to help them you wind up having to reverse the wheelchair over it all.

Find yourself a side entry van and get creative with parking, It does make me laugh how other drivers think we are awful at parking when they have no idea we are at 45 degrees on purpose, then there is a look of shock as the ramp deploys. Just be sensible if its a Pay N Display car park.

[Mark]

Many thanks for all the helpful info.
I wonder if there is any variation between different firm's conversions of the Voyager or if they all have the same internal room?
I saw a Bekker one (latest model) at the mobility roadshow and it looked great (at a price) I see s/h ones (previous model) on ebay for less than £10k, but wonder about Chrysler reliability.
I went and tried a side loading drive-from-wheelchair Kia Sedona last week assuming it was similar, but the opening was very tight and partly blocked by the mechanism, and was very difficult to shunt an F55 into the driving position, even when legrests completely removed. Also the F55 didn't line up square with the steering wheel. A much narrower chair might have worked better, but that isn't what I wanted.

[Burgerman]

Sedonnas lack internal space to manoeuvre. I couldn't sensibly use one. Tested and failed.

All Chrysler conversions are different.

The Rollx/Bekker/Braun conversions are clones, and one or two others too, have masses of floor space. And the floor is WIDE.

The rest do not. And have a boxy bit below the front doors, and / or the B pillar is far too wide. Meaning its hard to get a chair in the correct position, or impossible. Literally up to a foot of difference in floor width. And some do not have completely flat floors. Nobody seems to mention this, but it really matters. Not all conversions are equal.

[Mark]

Well it is a relief to hear that they are not all as tight as the Sedona. Must go and look at something like the Bekker voyager.
Do you know if the old (= second hand) model and the current model have the same internal dimensions?

Also, I had thought that only Sirus had converted the Kangoo's for drive-from-wheelchair (DFW) but now I have found that Steering Developments Ltd and at least one other company (Constables?) did DFW conversions of the Kangoo. I'm considering buying a cheap Kangoo as a stopgap.

[Burgerman]

Do you know if the old (= second hand) model and the current model have the same internal dimensions?

Same.

[ex-Gooserider]

At least hre in the US, the rear entry conversions are usually passenger only, with the passenger in the back. To get front row driver or passenger, you need to have a side entry... I also feel like it is easier to do "defensive parking" with a side entry - essentially parking on the diagonal like BM said, or looking for a space with an adjacent block that keeps you from being parked in... Worst case, call the cops and have them back the car straight out (something that can be done by an AB even with hand controls)

WIth a rear entry, you can't stop someone from parking to close behind you, no matter what you try.

The Mopar minivans generally have a pretty solid reputation for reliability, with a possibly weak (but repairable) transmission.

I have been told by some folks that some of the earlier conversions had a lot of problems with rustout in the lowered floor, due to a combination of dis-similar metal corrosion and a lack of rustproofing leading to road-salt vulnerability (allegedly there was a class action suit over this with hefty cash settlements) I would definitely advise getting ANY used conversion checked throroughly for this, in addition to the usual mechanical checking....

ex-Gooserider

[mgwmgw]

As best I recall, we got ex-Gooserider's van adapted at ride-away in New Hampshire,
and are reasonably satisfied with the experience.

If you want a Braun conversion, ride-away also re-sells vans:
http://www.ride-away.com/wheelchair-vans-for-sale/?sortby=lprice&xpage=1
I have never asked them about shipping overseas.

Also, as best I recall, military veterans around here get a new van every 3 years. Civilians not so often.
So if I were looking for a used adapted van, I would seriously look for a 3 year old one owned by a veteran.

An issue to consider with American cars is that places where it snows use salt on the road
and that can rot cars. A more southern source may get you a car that lasts longer.

Although you may pay a premium for it, you might want to choose a used car with a
http://www.carfax.com/entry.cfx report, if you get an American car.
This will tell you whether the car has been involved in an accident.

I also recall seeing posts warning not to do business with people who promise to ship a handicapped vans on craigslist.
If you do business on ebay, which also has cars,
be aware that there is a time limit on how long you can wait to insist that a seller make good on a problem.
We were somewhat bitten by that when buying a swimming pool lift.

[Burgerman]

http://www.ride-away.com/wheelchair-van ... onderry-nh

This is new.
In the UK it will cost approx. 60k POUNDS. That's around 100k DOLLARS! This country isn't cheap.

So for 45k dollars, or under 30k pounds its amazingly cheap.
And you DO NOT PAY the US purchase tax. So cheaper than it looks here. That easily covers the shipping/insurance to the UK with cash to spare. And its is exempt from import duty and from our car tax and our VAT too as its adapted...

In other words, half price, brand new.

It will need to be put through our special vehicle test, and registered. All quite easy/cheap.

This is what I did. But there was 2 dollars to the £ then... So even better.

It makes using UKs Motability, sticking £30k down up front, then paying £54 a week for yet another 5 years, and then GIVING it back, and then starting all over again, look completely crazy! That's some 43k pounds for the rental (lease) for 5 years...

Mine was 30k delivered. And no more ever. Mine. And its now nearly 7 years old, it literally looks and smells brand spanking new with fancy wheels etc. AND ITS MINE from day 1.

[motoman]

FWIW, the Honda side entry conversions have a bit more room inside than the Toyota due to an extra small area by the back seat. I can maneuver 360 degrees in my VMI Honda whereas I can't in a Braun Toyota.

[Burgerman]

I think it pays to look at a few different companies conversions. And different vans. They vary wildly in floor space, quality, and usability.

In my own van - with me driving from my chair, and the front passenger seat still in place, I recently dropped off a friend in his powerchair, while also transporting my (RC steered) BM3 chair to the college to drill some holes!

That means back seat, and front passenger seat available for use, and 3 chairs, and the rear cargo hatch also available. That's adequate for me!

VMI Chrysler vans for eg have the door B pillar uncut, and in the way. I cannot get square on to the steering wheel. The Rollx and Braun vans are a huge 10 inches wider in the front at this point. So it pays to look!

[sacharlie]

Mark if you are young and strong enough to transfer into a driver captain seat don't waste your money on a lowered floor minivan. Just get a full size van and you can place the lift at either the side or rear. Start at one position and if that doesn't workout move it to the other position.

[Mark]

Mark if you are young and strong enough to transfer into a driver captain seat don't waste your money on a lowered floor minivan.

Yes, that's a very good point. Unfortunately it is the problems that are developing in my shoulders, wrists etc. that made me realise that I need to consider the drive-from-wheelchair (DFW) solution.

I have now bought a s/h DFW Renault Kangoo (please don't mock!) to find out as cheaply as possible how I get on with the DFW solution. Obviously this has all the above-stated disadvantages of rear loading (and yes I have already reversed over bags without thinking) however I didn't want to commit to anything expensive only to find that the DFW method didn't work for me. I didn't buy the Kangoo as a long-term solution, and will sell it again before too long.

What I like is the ease and pain-free way of using a vehicle ( albeit a rather low form of mechanical life ). What I don't like is the audience that seems to gather while I am growing old waiting for the door/ramp sequence to complete, plus of course all the points listed by other group members. - Very many thanks for all this input, keep it coming as I'm sure I'm capable of many more blunders while getting used to this method of getting behind the wheel.

I've certainly used the car more this past week. Next stage is to look more closely at side-entry larger vehicles. So far only tried a Kia Sedona, but no room to line-up or easily turn the F55 inside.

[Burgerman]

Get a bekker van for a demo, you will be surprised how much space.

Then price up a rollx or braun US van for self import. Half price...

Old man Bekker imported my van for me for minimal cost, saved me doing the paperwork. And he fitted tie down, and hand controls, all ready to go, 30k all in new and delivered.

[Mark]

Get a bekker van for a demo, you will be surprised how much space.

Yes, Sally and I are hoping to drive up and see the Bekker team within a week or two. That is the next stage of the plan, and then also want to look at some of the VW conversions (prob side-load).

Unfortunately, the lhd options are not possible for Sally so a creative deal will have to be achieved another way.

[Burgerman]

Tell her that after the first 3 miles she will never notice the difference! Honestly I never notice. But the extra 20 or 30k in your pocket will mean she can go shopping...

Seriously, you just don't notice. LHD/RHD? Nothing to be scared of at all.

[LROBBINS]

Please don't knock the lowly Kangoo. Beauty is as beauty does. We have both a Vantage Grand Voyager that we brought with us to Italy when we moved from the U.S., and a dropped floor, kneeling suspension, short ramp Kangoo that we bought here. In our medieval towns and cities the Chrysler seems a humongous monstrosity while the Kangoo is just right. It's not "drive from" though, as my daughter, who's the power chair user, can't drive. Here at least there are many more parking spaces usable with rear entry. When using the Chrysler we've often had to let Rachi out in the roadway and then park it. If you've had the pleasure of driving here among average Italian drivers, you'll know that's not a very comfortable situation.
Ciao,
Lenny

[Mark]

Tell her that after the first 3 miles she will never notice the difference! Honestly I never notice. But the extra 20 or 30k in your pocket will mean she can go shopping...

Seriously, you just don't notice. LHD/RHD? Nothing to be scared of at all.

Couldn't agree more. Wouldn't bother me at all. I even used to swap between motor buses and trolleybuses with never a problem (trolleybuses have the accelerator on the left and brake on the right, i.e. reversed controls). Similarly used to fly from lh seat or rh seat without thinking of it. However, RHD motor car is a non-negotiable requirement in this household - and I like living at home!

[Mark]

Hi Lenny,
Thanks for making me feel better about the Kangoo. Wonder how much fuel your's uses? I was surprised to only get 37 mpg on a 400 mile motorway trip, and best running around so far is only 27mpg. However, only had it a week and still finding out where all the breakers and switches are and what they do. Still to investigate a high-pitch whistle from the rear? whenever the engine is running. Loading the electrical system (switching headlights on) changes its character. Pretty sure it isn't the alternator belt because it seems to be more from the rear.
The lightened power steering is very welcome.

[Burgerman]

If you've had the pleasure of driving here among average Italian drivers, you'll know that's not a very comfortable situation.

I have. They are all completely mad.

Traffic lights, traffic islands, parking rules, give way signs, lanes, speed limits, and even one way signs are all just advisory hints...

I don't think there's a car there without a dent. And you need ear defenders to stop the noise. Horns are compulsory about 1/3rd the time.

[LROBBINS]

Ah John, you must have been driving in Rome or to the south of there. Here it's a bit less frenetic, though if used to the U.S. or U.K. you might not think so. Lived in Bari for a year and it was more or less as you describe, though my few visits to Napoli showed me that the Barese are actually disciplined drivers. Ciao, Lenny

[Burgerman]

On two wheels, all over and in big cities. "Touring" with lots of tyre smoke on big loud angry bikes with Nitrous etc... I still think they are all mad.

Italy... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfn4s-3kJWE

Only place worse was at the Arc de Triomphe with a caravan years ago...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHTpcyoJdKI

But it could be worse...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjrEQaG5jPM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebkogYErN3Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tfpny1mifs4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lay8aZlsbB0

[Lord Chatterley]

Last 4 videos explain a lot!

LC

[tomcmo]

Just to add to what has already been said. LHD no problem at all, been driving US import Voyagers for 20 years. As BM and others have said you sacrifice acres of storage and boot space for rear entry which is a pain particularly if you plan to travel. Side entry works great in larger Voyager type MPVs where you have the room to manouever into driving position, I tried a Kia Sedona and a VW and neither had the space to accommodate my powertec F50 comdortably. The only slight inconvenience is parking which can be difficult due to the space needed to accommodate the ramp and space to get on and up it, but you get used to that and with a Blue Badge and a little thought you can generally find a suitable spot. In summary a side entru is well worth the slight inconvenience for the benefits of the extra space and a boot although I am not driving in small medieval Italy.

[Burgerman]

The only thing really to add to this is that the Chrysler vans are big. Not that this is a problem driving, but it takes a lot of fuel to drive them about!

So while they have plenty space, accommodate most chairs, or even 4 powerchairs if you wanted, they are expensive to run. At least the 3.8 or 4 litre petrol ones are. And the 3.3 litre ones are a bit gutless and thrashy, and little better on fuel if at all.

If you are buying a right hand drive one in Europe, at stupid cost I may add compared to a US van imported, you can / should opt for a turbo diesel. I personally hate the things, and while performance is much the same overall, you need about twice as many gear changes per mile (narrow band of useful power) and so the auto box works hard, and have that horrid harsh 'feel' that is tiring compared to a silky smooth 6 cylinder petrol engine. But the one thing diesels do better is economy... About twice as good.