Hello from Canada

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Hello from Canada

Postby HiddenEmailer » 14 Jun 2022, 13:58

Hi, I'm From British Columbia in Canada.
I have a CompSci background and worked in IT for over 20 years but i'm ignorant to electronics, batteries etc. but I'm willing and want to learn.
anyway while not a wheelchair I did just get approved for coverage by my province for a mobility scooter for my disability.
due to my weight they ordered a Pride Maxima 4-Wheel.

due to the chip/supply shortage they say its going to be a couple months, they also mention that they do not cover batteries so I need to supply them out of pocket, ideally I want more range than the up to 19miles the two NF-22 GEL 58AH batteries can provide (says Deep cycle (AGM or gel cell type recommended) but I see on online people have used lifepo4 batteries for higher weight & longer range.

also if possible I would want more speed than the maximum 5.8mph because I live 8 miles out of town and while I wont mind the 1hr 1/2 commute each way, if I can increase that speed as well (on the high end, I still want it to be able to be slower for regular usage) it would be even better.
my journey of DIY battery forums and youtube videos brought me to here to hopefully figure out what my best options are for each issue.
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Re: Hello from Canada

Postby Burgerman » 14 Jun 2022, 16:56

1. You should have bought a bigger faster longer range scooter. So if possible change the order. Now you are trying to get a quart from a pint pot.

2. No you cant make it significantly faster. You will, IF you have acess to a programmer gain around 5% in speed, with lithium.

3. FORGET all the garbage you saw on youtube about lithium batteries. It makes me weep every time I watch some link people post.

4. 22nf is a hard size to to gain the real benefits of lithium as all the best cells that happen to fit neatly without wastd space work best in a group24 swap. Hence another reason to get a bigger, faster, longer range scooter. With a group 24 swap, we typically end up with a 200Ah plus battery in the same space. Much less in a grp22nf. And a highr C rate loading and so shorter lifespan.

5. Done PROPERLY you can get around 4x the range of lead. But remember that the range that you get from lead will be around 1/2 the claimed range in real world conditions. And thats only with the highest quality batteries.
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Re: Hello from Canada

Postby HiddenEmailer » 14 Jun 2022, 23:56

Burgerman wrote:1. You should have bought a bigger faster longer range scooter. So if possible change the order. Now you are trying to get a quart from a pint pot.


I agree but beggars can't be choosers,
my province is funding it for me and the way they do it is, each region has a supplier(s) the ministry works with (big places have more than 1 choice but I live in the sticks) anyway the supplier in my area is a vendor for pride mobility, golden technologies, heartway and sunrise medical.
Currently im 430lbs (down from 472lbs and in a medically monitored weight-loss program so hopefully i'll be out of the 400's soon) but till then if its funded before hand they wont fund any of the other models, not that that help cause most if not all use smaller batteries or the same.
although even if I got down to 350 or less for say the pride wrangler
so of those vendors only pride mobility & golden technologies have a scooter that is rated above 400lbs ( the pride maxima and the golden avenger ) both use dual 22NF batteries.

Burgerman wrote:2. No you cant make it significantly faster.


:(

youtube was giving me false hopes of maybe in the future doing a slight lift to increase the wheel size and/or overvolting to increase speed cause I read those are the primary methods to increase speed but I'm forgetting all that garbage especially for now so no weeping needed.

Burgerman wrote:You will, IF you have acess to a programmer gain around 5% in speed, with lithium.

cool, 5% would be better than not, hypothetically where would I acquire such a programer?

Burgerman wrote:3. FORGET all the garbage you saw on youtube about lithium batteries. It makes me weep every time I watch some link people post.

okie dokie

Burgerman wrote:4. 22nf is a hard size to to gain the real benefits of lithium as all the best cells that happen to fit neatly without wastd space work best in a group24 swap. Hence another reason to get a bigger, faster, longer range scooter. With a group 24 swap, we typically end up with a 200Ah plus battery in the same space. Much less in a grp22nf. And a highr C rate loading and so shorter lifespan.


I wont know for sure how much space I have to work with till I get mine but based on the unboxing videos I see it doesnt look like it'd have the extra length or height for group24 without removing the battery cover and building a replacement which I have seen some youtube vids of people doing to scooters
otherwise its got that 1" trailer receiver behind the chair if I need even more range I could hypothetically build a external battery box from one of the accessory baskets they make fore that for even more capacity, but I still want the core scooter to get as much range I can squeeze into its main compartment.

Burgerman wrote:5. Done PROPERLY you can get around 4x the range of lead.

so hypothetically what resources do you recommend to do it properly?

Burgerman wrote:But remember that the range that you get from lead will be around 1/2 the claimed range in real world conditions.


I Imagine thats the case as range can vary greatly based on my weight, hills etc. luckily my area isn't too hilly and im loosing weight so far

Burgerman wrote:And thats only with the highest quality batteries.


thats where I figure since im on the hook for batteries regardless of SLA (gel or agm) or lithium/lifepo4 and high quality SLA look to be 250CAD a piece.
so even gong SLA it looks like im dropping $500 ( $386 USD) I figure it might be worth it to pay the $1000+ or whatever more and get lifepo4 the bat since i'm Saving on not having to buy the scooter anyway.
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Re: Hello from Canada

Postby Burgerman » 15 Jun 2022, 02:12

One question at a time!
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Re: Hello from Canada

Postby martin007 » 15 Jun 2022, 12:42

Welcome HiddenEmailer!


Burgerman wrote:But remember that the range that you get from lead will be around 1/2 the claimed range in real world conditions. And thats only with the highest quality batteries.


An ingredient is missing from the cake.
Those batteries (quality lead) will only provide half of the promised range if properly charged.
Mobility chargers kill GEL batteries. banghead banghead banghead
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Re: Hello from Canada

Postby HiddenEmailer » 15 Jun 2022, 17:56

Burgerman wrote:One question at a time!

sorry, i just tried to respond to it all.

I guess the 1st question I should have is about that programmer to get 5% more speed when I go lithium.

questions regarding what pack to use and/or build might be better suited for when it arrives so I know the room I have to play with stock.

martin007 wrote:Welcome HiddenEmailer!


Burgerman wrote:But remember that the range that you get from lead will be around 1/2 the claimed range in real world conditions. And thats only with the highest quality batteries.


An ingredient is missing from the cake.
Those batteries (quality lead) will only provide half of the promised range if properly charged.
Mobility chargers kill GEL batteries. banghead banghead banghead


wait, so even if I forgot about lithium for now and paid the $500ish for the high quality GEL batteries that the manufacturer recommends your saying the charger said manufacturer gives with the scooter will slowly kill the batteries, so I'd also want a good external charger adding even more money to the equation... WTF
you would think the people that make the products wouldn't recommend and provide something that is detrimental to it, especially since these things are used by people with disabilities not all of which can deal with things dying as easy as a able-bodied.
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Re: Hello from Canada

Postby Burgerman » 15 Jun 2022, 22:18

The vast majority of manufacturers and certainly techs and resellers are completely clueless about batteries.

Even the best batteries at your weight, will get hammered. Thats why I said the scooter is too small and takes too small batteries. Also even MK Gel give 500 cycles maximum by which time they are down to only 80% of original capacity. And thats when charged properly. As they become less capable you discharge them by a greater percentage daily and so they die faster day by day.

Lead is at best crap. Only the best lead, and only when charged correctly, and only if the battery is of large enough capacity do they stand much hope at all. Esp if you are heavy, and expect the two things that you do: Range, and speed. These two things eat up batteries faster.
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Re: Hello from Canada

Postby martin007 » 15 Jun 2022, 22:20

HiddenEmailer wrote:wait, so even if I forgot about lithium for now and paid the $500ish for the high quality GEL batteries that the manufacturer recommends your saying the charger said manufacturer gives with the scooter will slowly kill the batteries, so I'd also want a good external charger adding even more money to the equation... WTF
you would think the people that make the products wouldn't recommend and provide something that is detrimental to it, especially since these things are used by people with disabilities not all of which can deal with things dying as easy as a able-bodied.



That's what I'm saying.
You will probably have a charger like these.
chacha.PNG


Quality gel batteries are charged in the first phase at a maximum of 28.2v at 20º.
MK Powered's mobility charger supplies 28.8v
When it's hot you have to discount voltios.
If you charge the batteries immediately after a long ride the batteries are hot and you have to deduct volts.
Excess voltage during charging shortens the life of batteries.
Many members of the forum use Shirley's charger.

> https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/ ... f=2&t=7670
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Re: Hello from Canada

Postby snaker » 16 Jun 2022, 10:56

The first thing you have to do is to pick a scooter with a GP24 battery box (or better GP27 = 2x100Ah SLA batteries). Or you have to think how to modify your current scooter's battery box to make it larger, at least the same size of GP24. Other things you could do later.
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