Greetings from the Netherlands

[CazSaa]

Hello all, my name is Caz, I am 16 years old and have SMA Type 2. I have been a wheelchair user since I was 2 years old. I have been driving a mid wheeler for about 5 years now and I’m really happy with it, although I want it to go faster. My dad is very smart and likes to tweak my powerchair. So I hope my dad will be able to improve my powerchair.

[Burgerman]

What is the chair?

[CazSaa]

Pride Quantum 6000z

[martin007]

Hello Caz

I also have SMA Type 2.

[Burgerman]

What controller does it have?

[CazSaa]

Hello Caz

I also have SMA Type 2.

Hello Martin, nice to meet you.

What controller does it have?

Do you mean the thing with which I drive my wheelchair or something else? I will look into further details about my wheelchair tomorrow.
Thank you for your quick help already!

[steves1977uk]

Welcome aboard Caz!

If your chair's the European model, then I guessing it's the P&G VR2 control system.

Steve

[Burgerman]

Maybe, I think dutch. Going by signup IP address.

Did your dad ever program your chair properly so it goes where its told?

[CazSaa]

Welcome aboard Caz!

If your chair's the European model, then I guessing it's the P&G VR2 control system.

Steve

I live in Europe but it is possible that it is an American model.

Maybe, I think dutch. Going by signup IP address.

Did your dad ever program your chair properly so it goes where its told?

It was programmed by the dealer of the wheelchair and it drives like I want it to.

Do you know where I can find full specs of my wheelchair?

[CazSaa]

I can’t find any specs on my powerchair online so I have to look into it with my dad present, this evening when he is home from work.

[LROBBINS]

If you can find the serial number on the chair and send that to the manufacturer, they can back track to the original order and specs. One of the annoying, but sometimes useful, features of EU and U.S. regs is that they require chair manufacturers to keep such records.

[Burgerman]

It was programmed by the dealer of the wheelchair and it drives like I want it to.

With respect I have heard that so many times... Then when you program it properly, with an oem level programmer they eat their words!

Compared to how it can be, your chair right now drives in what I call hovercraft mode. Because there are walls set up to prevent you removing all the turn acceleration and turn deceleration delays. And theres a lot of other minor things that can be fine tuned too. The dealer has not got the tools or in most cases the abilities to do this.

Now if its using the pride (made by curtis instrements) systems, its possible on ealier ones to use the OEM level tools to program it. Then instead of about a dozen options you gety the full monty with hundreds of options. Including the abiility to remove walls set up for the dealer level tools. If its a newer pride system you are screwed and thats why we generally advise to not buy pride stuff. It means you are forever stuck with an uncontrollable chair. You may not think it is, but you would think that if you ever tried a properly programmed chair. But in Europe we are luckier than in the US. We get PG drives stuff on their chairs generally. Meaniung we can get hold of OEM level programming tools more easily.

[steves1977uk]

I can’t find any specs on my powerchair online so I have to look into it with my dad present, this evening when he is home from work.

Found it... https://www.pridemobility.com/pdf/owner ... ies_om.pdf

Steve

[CazSaa]

Welcome aboard Caz!

If your chair's the European model, then I guessing it's the P&G VR2 control system.

Steve

Judging by the images I get when looking for this controller, I do not have this one.

I can’t find any specs on my powerchair online so I have to look into it with my dad present, this evening when he is home from work.

Found it... https://www.pridemobility.com/pdf/owner ... ies_om.pdf

Steve

I could not find information about the controller and control system of my power chair in any manual unfortunately. My dad is almost home so maybe that will give us some more luck.

If you can find the serial number on the chair and send that to the manufacturer, they can back track to the original order and specs. One of the annoying, but sometimes useful, features of EU and U.S. regs is that they require chair manufacturers to keep such records.

Thanks for the tip! I will look into this.

It was programmed by the dealer of the wheelchair and it drives like I want it to.

With respect I have heard that so many times... Then when you program it properly, with an oem level programmer they eat their words!

Compared to how it can be, your chair right now drives in what I call hovercraft mode. Because there are walls set up to prevent you removing all the turn acceleration and turn deceleration delays. And theres a lot of other minor things that can be fine tuned too. The dealer has not got the tools or in most cases the abilities to do this.

Now if its using the pride (made by curtis instrements) systems, its possible on ealier ones to use the OEM level tools to program it. Then instead of about a dozen options you gety the full monty with hundreds of options. Including the abiility to remove walls set up for the dealer level tools. If its a newer pride system you are screwed and thats why we generally advise to not buy pride stuff. It means you are forever stuck with an uncontrollable chair. You may not think it is, but you would think that if you ever tried a properly programmed chair. But in Europe we are luckier than in the US. We get PG drives stuff on their chairs generally. Meaniung we can get hold of OEM level programming tools more easily.

My wheelchair was programmed with OEM level programming tools and they made it quicker and more responsive in a sports mode to the point of a risk of overheating in long use. I think I’m very lucky with my dealer.

[Burgerman]

You may be. Still, I doubt it. Why? Because I heard it all before. I have configured a good few soccer chairs for a local club. Almost all thought that it was programmed well. Many 'experts' had done this for them. Not a single one was! But it all depends on what you are used to. You dont want fast turn speeds etc, unless soccer. You want instantanious linear responce. Can you let me look at your settings, or email me the file?

[CazSaa]

You may be. Still, I doubt it. Why? Because I heard it all before. I have configured a good few soccer chairs for a local club. Almost all thought that it was programmed well. Many 'experts' had done this for them. Not a single one was! But it all depends on what you are used to. You dont want fast turn speeds etc, unless soccer. You want instantanious linear responce. Can you let me look at your settings, or email me the file?

You might be right. I don’t know. I don’t have a cable to connect my power chair to a pc so I’m not able to see my settings. It was all configured at the dealer.

I will now add my specs.
Controller: Q-Logic 2
Control unit and module: still unknown, I’m trying to figure this out with the serial number.
Motors: DRVMOTR1306 and DRVMOTR1307 high speed motor
Battery: brand: Move
Type: MPA 85-12 12V 85Ah see attached image as well. I have two of these batteries.

I also have lift, tilt, recline and leg move functions.

I read your website on hie you built the BM3 and from what I can see I need a lithium battery with bigger capacity and more Volts. And I need a different control unit and I can keep the same motors. Could you confirm this?

Thanks in advance.

[CazSaa]

What controller does it have?

Do you mean the device with the joystick or the device that connects to the motors and to the batteries? Or is that the sams thing?

[Burgerman]

If it has q-logic 2 or 3 then your dealer definitely cant program it properly as only pride have access to that programmer. Even though they will tell you non exists. It does because the system is the same as the curtis one and they actually make it. So bgasically your dealer cannot program it properly. Worse, neither can we. This is the reason or one of the few important reasons we always try to avoid pride branded chairs. And its begining to be an issue on permobil, and on newer invacare chair with the latest dynamic controller.

So basically you are stuck with it.

My BM3 is a totally different thing with 100x the complication. Dont go there or even consider that unless you first read and understand the pinned lithium threads as wll as the roboteq thread. Its not a thing that is to be undertaken lightly! And non of it is plug and play, requires much fabricating, home built joystick, and months of testingand configuration, control scripts, etc.

Next chair. Make sure you get r-net 120A controller, 4 pole motors, preferably 6mph, and GRP24 batteries. Then you can make a good controllable chair that can be swapped over to lithium in a sensible way. With around 5x the stock range, and about 7mph.

[Burgerman]

If it has q-logic 2 or 3 then your dealer definitely cant program it properly as only pride have access to that programmer. Even though they will tell you non exists. It does because the system is the same as the curtis one and they actually make it. So bgasically your dealer cannot program it properly. Worse, neither can we. This is the reason or one of the few important reasons we always try to avoid pride branded chairs. And its begining to be an issue on permobil, and on newer invacare chair with the latest dynamic controller.

So basically you are stuck with it.

My BM3 is a totally different thing with 100x the complication. Dont go there or even consider that unless you first read and understand the pinned lithium threads as wll as the roboteq thread. Its not a thing that is to be undertaken lightly! And non of it is plug and play, requires much fabricating, home built joystick, and months of testingand configuration, control scripts, etc.

Next chair. Make sure you get r-net 120A controller, 4 pole motors, preferably 6mph, and GRP24 batteries. Then you can make a good controllable chair that can be swapped over to lithium in a sensible way. With around 5x the stock range, and about 7mph.

I may add that thos https://movebatteries.com/assets/upload ... -85-12.pdf batteries are terrible.
5.5mOhm impedance means that you have high voltage drop under load. Thats more than double the impedance of the smaller 68Ah odyssey. And it follows that you also have high Peukert value. Which is why the battery is only a 46Ah battery at the 1 hour rate, down to a voltage way lower than a powerchair needs to keep rolling. It also claims a cycle life of just 350 to 400 at 75 % DOD with is half the service life of an MK gel for eg.

So your first upgrade step would be to fit 200Ah of LiFePO4! And get at least 5x the range. And a decade of service life. Charge faster, and do it once a week in winter.

[CazSaa]

If it has q-logic 2 or 3 then your dealer definitely cant program it properly as only pride have access to that programmer. Even though they will tell you non exists. It does because the system is the same as the curtis one and they actually make it. So bgasically your dealer cannot program it properly. Worse, neither can we. This is the reason or one of the few important reasons we always try to avoid pride branded chairs. And its begining to be an issue on permobil, and on newer invacare chair with the latest dynamic controller.

So basically you are stuck with it.

My BM3 is a totally different thing with 100x the complication. Dont go there or even consider that unless you first read and understand the pinned lithium threads as wll as the roboteq thread. Its not a thing that is to be undertaken lightly! And non of it is plug and play, requires much fabricating, home built joystick, and months of testingand configuration, control scripts, etc.

Next chair. Make sure you get r-net 120A controller, 4 pole motors, preferably 6mph, and GRP24 batteries. Then you can make a good controllable chair that can be swapped over to lithium in a sensible way. With around 5x the stock range, and about 7mph.

I may add that thos https://movebatteries.com/assets/upload ... -85-12.pdf batteries are terrible.
5.5mOhm impedance means that you have high voltage drop under load. Thats more than double the impedance of the smaller 68Ah odyssey. And it follows that you also have high Peukert value. Which is why the battery is only a 46Ah battery at the 1 hour rate, down to a voltage way lower than a powerchair needs to keep rolling. It also claims a cycle life of just 350 to 400 at 75 % DOD with is half the service life of an MK gel for eg.

So your first upgrade step would be to fit 200Ah of LiFePO4! And get at least 5x the range. And a decade of service life. Charge faster, and do it once a week in winter.

Our dealer actually has the pride software with which they can control everything. They aren't supposed to have it but they do. And I am happy with the performance of my power chair except for the speed.

I understand that making my power chair go faster is very hard. That's why I want to make sure I get all the basics right. So please correct me if I'm wrong on this; I need a lithium battery with a much bigger capacity and the roboteq controller. I can keep my motors which go 9 miles per hour.
Do I need a special joystick or can I keep my original one as well?

I also have some questions about your suggestion for my next power chair; Why would you suggest 6 miles per hour instead of 9? What is a r-net controller?
Also I believe I already have a 120A controller but I'm not sure about that.

As for the batteries I don't really get to choose which batteries I want because they are provided by the state.

I also want to say that I really appreciate you helping me out.

[Burgerman]

Before you even think about using a roboteq controller, higher voltages etc you need to learn the basics.

So question 1.
Why 6mph?

Because the only difference between a 6mph 4 pole motor, and an 8 or 9 mph 4 pole motor is the gearing.

With a conventional controller and 24V if all else remains the same (and it does!) then a 9mph motor takes 1.5X as many amps from the battery on every single turn, speed change, etc. So it makes the controller much hotter, causing it to roll back power far sooner. As such if your chair really is programmed correctly, which we ill need to go into later, (because its highly unlikely that it is for several rather complex reasons) it will overheat the controller if driven hard in a matter of minutes as mine does. Whats more, it has only 2/3rds the level of maximum torque, and THAT matters if you want it to be able to have the power to do a ramp or turn on say sand or grass. As in it wont! It also means that even if you drove a 9mph chair at 6mph, it still eats 50% extra battery power, so costs both a lot of range, and shortens the battery lifespan due to deeper DOD daily. It also means greater voltage drop on every manoever or acceleration/turn. Meaning even less torque and greater peukert all of the time. I just ordered this chair. And modified it a little. Please read carefully. Then look at the pretty pictures. It was ordered as 6mph in preference to 8mph and with the 120A controller for extremely good reason!!!

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7455&start=600#p122818

[CazSaa]

Before you even think about using a roboteq controller, higher voltages etc you need to learn the basics.

So question 1.
Why 6mph?

Because the only difference between a 6mph 4 pole motor, and an 8 or 9 mph 4 pole motor is the gearing.

With a conventional controller and 24V if all else remains the same (and it does!) then a 9mph motor takes 1.5X as many amps from the battery on every single turn, speed change, etc. So it makes the controller much hotter, causing it to roll back power far sooner. As such if your chair really is programmed correctly, which we ill need to go into later, (because its highly unlikely that it is for several rather complex reasons) it will overheat the controller if driven hard in a matter of minutes as mine does. Whats more, it has only 2/3rds the level of maximum torque, and THAT matters if you want it to be able to have the power to do a ramp or turn on say sand or grass. As in it wont! It also means that even if you drove a 9mph chair at 6mph, it still eats 50% extra battery power, so costs both a lot of range, and shortens the battery lifespan due to deeper DOD daily. It also means greater voltage drop on every manoever or acceleration/turn. Meaning even less torque and greater peukert all of the time. I just ordered this chair. And modified it a little. Please read carefully. Then look at the pretty pictures. It was ordered as 6mph in preference to 8mph and with the 120A controller for extremely good reason!!!

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7455&start=600#p122818

Does this mean you’re not happy with your BM3? Those have 8.5 mph motors, I have 9 mph motors with enough torque as well.
My goal is to get more speed, let’s say about 13 mph, not necessarily more torque. The torque I have right now is enough for me, and a little increase is, of course, always welcome. So I get that 6 mph motors may be more ideal but I would prefer keeping my current power chair with my current motors.
So I’m wondering would getting 13 mph be possible by changing the batteries to lithium and getting a roboteq controller?

Looking forward to your response!

Caz

[Burgerman]

The Roboteq controller is both 45V and 150A capable.
That means I can get the same torque as a 6mph motor, with an 8.5mph motor even at the same 24v because of the added AMPS.
So in the case of the BM3 the 8.5 mph motors have as much torque as 6mph motors. But because we have 45V avaiilable we can go double the speed AS WELL! Double the torque and double the speed means 4x the power. So you can easily blow or melt a motor if configured incorrectly.

Do you understand the relationship between motor impedance, Amps, Volts, speed, efficiency, torque?
Do you understand that its possible to have more motor amps, than battery amps? And how that relationship works? You will need to.
Can you build your own control system, understand how to make a suitable joystick and the wiring, switching, ssd's, voltage regulators, contactors, current sensors, etc, and are able to configure and test the script for control that we are using?
Can I suggest you read these things first because you WILL need to understand all this stuff.

1. roboteq 2450 manual. End to end and understand it.
2. this thread where we kicked about a few ideas and figured out how to get it all to work and be controllable over many years. Ongoing. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2436
3. the pinned thread on lithium batteries.

How do you think you are going to fit a roboteq controller? Heres a few images from years ago. http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM3-construction/ Scroll through them. Non of this is plug and play. You will need to make all of this and source all of the parts. More importantly its not a paining by numbers puzzle, you will need to understand what you are doing and why.

[steves1977uk]

The Roboteq setup isn't a simple plug'n'play solution Caz, as BM has explained. You'd probably would be better off going with a RWD chair with a R-Net control system, as these allow tweaking higher motor voltages with a Lithium setup.

But if you want to go the Roboteq route, make sure you and your Dad READ and UNDERSTAND everything!

Steve

[CazSaa]

The Roboteq setup isn't a simple plug'n'play solution Caz, as BM has explained. You'd probably would be better off going with a RWD chair with a R-Net control system, as these allow tweaking higher motor voltages with a Lithium setup.

But if you want to go the Roboteq route, make sure you and your Dad READ and UNDERSTAND everything!

Steve

The Roboteq controller is both 45V and 150A capable.
That means I can get the same torque as a 6mph motor, with an 8.5mph motor even at the same 24v because of the added AMPS.
So in the case of the BM3 the 8.5 mph motors have as much torque as 6mph motors. But because we have 45V avaiilable we can go double the speed AS WELL! Double the torque and double the speed means 4x the power. So you can easily blow or melt a motor if configured incorrectly.

Do you understand the relationship between motor impedance, Amps, Volts, speed, efficiency, torque?
Do you understand that its possible to have more motor amps, than battery amps? And how that relationship works? You will need to.
Can you build your own control system, understand how to make a suitable joystick and the wiring, switching, ssd's, voltage regulators, contactors, current sensors, etc, and are able to configure and test the script for control that we are using?
Can I suggest you read these things first because you WILL need to understand all this stuff.

1. roboteq 2450 manual. End to end and understand it.
2. this thread where we kicked about a few ideas and figured out how to get it all to work and be controllable over many years. Ongoing. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2436
3. the pinned thread on lithium batteries.

How do you think you are going to fit a roboteq controller? Heres a few images from years ago. http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM3-construction/ Scroll through them. Non of this is plug and play. You will need to make all of this and source all of the parts. More importantly its not a paining by numbers puzzle, you will need to understand what you are doing and why.

Thank you both! I will look into this and then discuss with my dad about what we’re going to do. I see now that I probably underestimated it.

[CazSaa]

I’m doing some research right now and I came across the term “stall torque”. What does this mean?
Is this the torque produced when I’m just standing still or does this happen when I’m stopped by an obstacle en pushing my joustick all the way forward?
I basically need to know what stalling means here.

[Burgerman]

Both. Its the power the motor has at a given voltage. Its a function of motor impedance, voltage, gearing.

In programming, theres a setting called torque. What this does is to increase motor load compensation at small stick movements. It is a sort of disguise. It cannot increase maximum torque.

The max torque the chair can produce to climb a threshhold, or to dig itself out of a hole, to turn in place, or to climb a slope depends on:
Gearing. (A 6mph chair has around 25% more torque or pulling power than a 8mph chair.)

Motor current, depends on current. More = more torque. Typically a 4 pole mortor takes double the current at stall compared to a 2 pole motor. So has double the potential torque. But this current level (Amps) is limited by:

The controller. A 90 Amp controller has less torque than a 120A controller. So this will limit the motors actual torque level.

So you need 6mph, 4 pole, 120A controller, correctly programmed to have the best torque (and stall torque) performance. Its the best balance.

[CazSaa]

Both. Its the power the motor has at a given voltage. Its a function of motor impedance, voltage, gearing.

In programming, theres a setting called torque. What this does is to increase motor load compensation at small stick movements. It is a sort of disguise. It cannot increase maximum torque.

The max torque the chair can produce to climb a threshhold, or to dig itself out of a hole, to turn in place, or to climb a slope depends on:
Gearing. (A 6mph chair has around 25% more torque or pulling power than a 8mph chair.)

Motor current, depends on current. More = more torque. Typically a 4 pole mortor takes double the current at stall compared to a 2 pole motor. So has double the potential torque. But this current level (Amps) is limited by:

The controller. A 90 Amp controller has less torque than a 120A controller. So this will limit the motors actual torque level.

So you need 6mph, 4 pole, 120A controller, correctly programmed to have the best torque (and stall torque) performance. Its the best balance.

So torque is the power the motor has at a certain voltage. To me it seems logical to think that the torque is 0 when I don't touch the joystick, so the stall torque wouldn't be large at all.
Is this right and does the motor only have torque when moving the joystick, or does it also have torque when literally standing still because I'm not touching my joystick?

[Burgerman]

Stall means to prevent the motor turning. Regardless of power (Amps) applied. The Amps are determined by load, and as the load decreases the Amps fall away. When a motor is spinning unloaded the Amps drawn are at the lowest around 5A at max RPMs.

[CazSaa]

Because getting more amps requires a different controller and is, of course, very difficult, my dad and I came up with the idea to just double the voltage. The plan is to use 2 lithium batteries of 24 volts. We will power the motor with both batteries, 48 volts. And power everything else, my current controller as well, with one battery, which would be 24 volts, and the same as I currently have.

Do you have any thoughts on this?