IQ

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Re: IQ

Postby biscuit » 01 Sep 2021, 13:20

:lol:
and here i thought you were getting into a philosophical discussion.
maybe they had more choices before Schrödinger.
love science, we always know exactly the reason why everything happened.
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Re: IQ

Postby Burgerman » 01 Sep 2021, 13:36

Yes. It removes all the opinion, feelings, want it to work, should, might, I was sure, testimonial "evidence" etc and all the rest of the woo woo or other inaccurate ways to try to understand the world. Philosophy is one of those. Hot air, and very wordy, no science. It was left behind once real science was discovered and science needed a way to seperate itself to get away from philosophical nonsense.

love science, we always know exactly the reason why everything happened.

Actually a real scientist ever claims to KNOW anything for sure. The current scientific knowledge is the BEST MODEL that fits all the facts, and fits into the current body of knowledge. Everything is challengable. But you MUST have supporting evidence to show how and why your new theory is correct. Or show some place an existing theory fails. Just once! Other scientists will try to destroy that new theory (and all he existing accepted ones) and try to break the theory or model. Nothing in science ever goes from a "theory" to being a "fact". No matter how well it appears to work or how well supported. It just become a stronger theory over time as mre evidence is gathered and after many attempts to prove it wrong have failed. Fail once, and out it goes.
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Re: IQ

Postby biscuit » 01 Sep 2021, 13:49

Short of a definition of free and will still.
And no humans for this scientifically perfected world, only machines with algorithms.
Actually a real scientist ever claims to KN...
that all sounds more like reality.
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Re: IQ

Postby Burgerman » 01 Sep 2021, 14:35

Theres a big difference however for NEVER KNOWS ANYTHING FOR SURE and you thinking that this means anything goes and they could be wrong.# A Massive difference! Its not 50/50!

For e.g since einsteins theories of relativity and special relativity, countless millions of experiments have been done to test if this theory always holds true. It basically determines the way the universe works, gravity works, time works, etc. It has never been shown to be anything but perfect in its predictions. And the problem for anyone trying to prove most of the other theories in physics wrong is that they all interlock. They all depend on and effect each other. So if you managed to find anything wrong with any of the mainstream physics theory at all, even once, then the whole lot of it. Everything we know about the world, or the universe, has to be wrong too. And people have been making CORRECT predictions using all these thousands of physical laws for centuries.

For e.g predictive power. The HIGGS particle was predicted to exist 60 years ago.Based on all of physics. It was only found in reality because of the predicted power of all of the physics we know or think (99.99999%) true. We had to build the large hadron collider to actualy discover it to be sure that all the other theories were correct. It then corroborates all the rest of the physics we think is true. Since these theories all predict each other and require each one to be correct in order to do this (and thousands of other predictions not mentioned here) its truly inconcievable that all this can be wrong. Because it WORKS!

So its not like its ever going to change. We may find MORE physics, in the future, but its going to have to fit the existing model. Its a bit like proving a murder wasNt the case, when it was done with full instrUmentation, 1000 video caMeras, and a sports stadium FULL of witnesses and a live broadcast all at the same time. Only MORE so.

Yes everything, every single theory could be wrong. But they arent! Its a statistical thing. There is maybe a 0.000001 percent chance that the physics we THINK to be right could still be wrong. But its all but insignificant. Still we cannot say we KNOW. Thats why everything will always remain a strong theory and not a fact. Gravity is a theory too. Do you think it exists?
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Re: IQ

Postby biscuit » 01 Sep 2021, 15:25

My experience is that it does. Can't speak for anyone else. But I would be prepared to use it as a reason to not jump off cliffs.
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Re: IQ

Postby Burgerman » 01 Sep 2021, 16:13

You or my or anyones experience is subjective, Innacurate. How you feel about anything has no bearing on if its true or not. Thats the whole point. You must learn to seperate feelings, testimonials, etc from logic, reasoning, evidence. Those are the ONLY way to find the truth. They cannot be mixed.

This is exactly what I mean when I say that people should be taught how to think. Not what to think. To teach them logic, ad reasoning skills. To learn how to thimk sceptically. bout *everything* and to sepeate that lear and accurate thinking from any kind of feelongs, and the idea that a thing "works for you". But I give up. Its far too late for most people to learn to run their entire life that way.To me its the ONLY way I think. In a totally analytical logical way. I use what science says is tue, physics and sceptisism all day, every day with every single thought. It SEPERATE from how I feel about anything.
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Re: IQ

Postby biscuit » 01 Sep 2021, 19:00

You or my or anyones experience is subjective, Innacurate.

You contradict it in the very next paragraph saying that people should not be taught what to think.
Which implies that their own experience is the evidence they must consider.
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Re: IQ

Postby Burgerman » 01 Sep 2021, 19:20

EXCEPT HOW TO THINK!!!

Teach them logic, reason, the scientific method, sceptical thinking. Teach HOW TO THINK. Not what to think. (E.G socialism, global warming nonsense, wokery, woo woo etc) Give them the TOOL they need to find out and look at the REALITY, the TRUTH, and how to know the difference between bullshit, propaganda, feelings about things and FACTS.

For e.g if people were taught HOW to think, religion would not (could not) exist. Neither would homeopathy, magnetic treatment, magnetic water softeners, crystal treatments, homeopathy, sticking pins in pople, and all the rest of the nonsense. Anyone with logic, reason and crytical thinking skills COULD NEVER give any of this stuff a second thought. Same as all the idiots following uri gellar. Spoon bending lark. Its all comlete nonsense. I even figured out USING LOGIC how he did that "MAGIC"...

Not opinion and feelings and testimonials. Had you been taught HOW to think you would never have made this major error in thinking!!!

Feelings and emotions are about people and relationships, about art. Not objects and physics, or how anything works or design, or mechanical or electrical or chemisty etc. How you feel about propylene oxide or anything at all is IRRELIVANT. If you feel that it is good for you PROVIDE EVIDENCE. (Its not). Because "feel" is personal testimony and so worthless as evidence.

Objects and everything other than people require 100% OBJECTivity. Logic, reason, scientific method, not opinions and pesonel testimony or how you feel about it. How do YOU think uri gellar made the ends fall of spoons? Look up Gallium.
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Re: IQ

Postby Burgerman » 01 Sep 2021, 19:27

I did it for you.

Make a spoon mould with plasticene...
Tip in warm gallium metal.
Rub the end to make it warm up, and melt and the end will fall off.

Half the world that dont know how to think believed this nonsense was some special power. Thats wht testimonial evidence is completely useless. Even if you see it and believe it "personally"...
How to think tells you NOT to believe what you see (personal testimony) and to look for reality.

I watched what he did. Then knowing it breaks the laws of physics, did a little search in the chemistry lab at school (no web in those days) to see if there were metals that melt at just above room temperature. Yep... gallium

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_VYf8MdVSw
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Re: IQ

Postby slomobile » 08 Sep 2021, 23:12

Burgerman wrote:I only eat stuff with a face. I am buying food at a BUTCHERS. Everything there has a face. Or does she not think meat is animals? And so that IS the oppsite to a vegetarian as they dont eat anything with a face by definition... They eat all the stuff I dont! Weeds etc. I cant see how everyone doesent get that? banghead

I look at that statement and think, "Surely you use salt and pepper, or other seasonings. Gravy has some non face bearing components. How can you not have gravy? Mushrooms in the gravy. Not veggie, but no face. Cheese is a necessity for me. Does it technically have a face? What about eggs?" And down the rabbit hole I go, way too deep before I realize no one else cares. But for some reason I am highly invested. I feel your pain. But I always attributed that to my head injury. Failure to pick up social cues.

I'm never getting into Mensa, but because of the head injury I've been tested by psychologists 3 times over a decade apart. Mid-low 120's, but with profoundly slow processing speed. I find that when I look at a problem, I completely miss the obvious solution. Cannot even see it as a possibility. But my brain takes a different path, often taking what was intended as figurative language very literally. And that often leads me to interesting solutions. Very rough and unfinished. But if I can find a way to communicate the idea to someone else, they show me the obvious thing I missed. I combine that with my circuitous process and I gain a fuller understanding of a thing than I could ever get on my own. So while communication is difficult, I find it to be a necessary part of my thought process. And for that I apologize. I often use this forum as a scratch pad for my ideas. Either shot down or sculpted by members.

Thanks BM and all for that
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Re: IQ

Postby Burgerman » 09 Sep 2021, 16:23

But IQ tests dont test knowledge. The one I linked to was a typical example. Every question was actually easy for anyone, even that could not speak english and that had no external knowledge. It was purely a visual mental reasoning problem solving, pattern recognition test. And given enough time, almost everyone could have answered every single question correctly. But thats the point. You are not given enough time. Its against the clock.

So that what is tested is mental capacity, logic and reasoning. And the speed at which your CPU is running, and how much RAM you have... So your score puts you into the largest band by far. The average IQ in Europe being 108 approx. Just over 100 in the US. So you are bang in the middle of the bell curve. Where 85% of the population are. You are perfectly average/normal. You say your brain injury slows you down but thats what this measures. Your speed of problem solving ability. The abilty to see the correct answers to things fast, and to understand and see the patterns fast. Thats is IQ. So maybe you were much higher IQ pre injury.

Knowledge is different. Knowledge is something everyone with a normal IQ, can improve on by learning. And by experience. One of the hugely important traits of having a high IQ however, is an intense curiosity about the world and how it works. It drives you. And little interest in the things that appear to be highly important to the "normal" average person. Football, or "stars", TV shows etc. And they generally have little interest and dismiss things like woo woo science, or religion, or the soft "sciences" normally. And so those with a higher IQ tend to be the very same ones that also learn a lot because of this intense curiosity. And they can also learn faster and more easily partly because they desperately want to *know* and understand the world. And because they grasp things fast. So while many people can learn advanced physics for e.g., it does tend to be the most intelligent that actually do. However its not a garantee of succsess. There are roadsweeper and binmen in mensa too. Just not many.
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Re: IQ

Postby slomobile » 10 Sep 2021, 17:17

The quick IQ tests do use timed tests for everything, but the better tests also test crystalized knowledge. The diagnostic type tests I had were full day affairs with some timed, some not timed portions. Timed and untimed problem solving, recall tests at several intervals, physical manipulation of objects, reading comprehension, vocabulary, and knowledge tests. All of these combined generate a single score, but more importantly they identified specific holes in my functioning. Some total blind spots. For example, I lack immediate memory, but have short term and long term memory. Yes, its weird. I don't understand it either. I've compensated in all sorts of ways which also showed up in the testing. Mostly by applying logic to fill in blanks which I don't actually remember. Works, but sometimes logic fails to apply to a situation and when you remember something differently than other observers, they call that delusion. It is remarkable what they are able to discern from the complete battery. It is true that my IQ was higher before the injury, but not much. 126 preinjury, 122 3 years post injury, 124 12 years post injury. Because it is a population normed test, they can also apply the scale to individual segments. In one, I scored a miserable 83. They call that a "statistically significant finding". Some tests are: How many names can you say in 90 seconds. I did terrible on number, but came up with mostly unique names which I guess has some significance. The test where you have to use red and white blocks to recreate patterns I knocked out of the park solving every one as fast as my fingers could move. This is definitely one of those tests that (people think) anyone can do given enough time. But the last few require some (literally) out of box thinking. Even though they have unlimited time to solve it, most people give up rather quickly I'm told. And that is an aspect of the test. If anything it shows the remarkable plastic adaptability of the brain. I had a left orbital fracture with left prefrontal damage, white matter lesions spread all over, and years of left temporal lobe partial complex seizures. Now the seizures are mostly gone and the lesions disappeared.
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Re: IQ

Postby Burgerman » 10 Sep 2021, 21:12

but the better tests also test crystalized knowledge.


What you call better are NOT IQ tests. Knowledge isnt IQ.

The test you are talking about may well test other things much better but not IQ. If an IQ test needs knowledge its not an IQ test.

Works, but sometimes logic fails to apply to a situation

Logic never fails although it can be irrelivant to some things that are emotional etc. Those are all mixed in with, and up with the woo woo irrelivant things to me... I ignore it mostly. I run on logic, facts, reason. Not feeings or woo nonsense.
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Re: IQ

Postby slomobile » 12 Sep 2021, 21:50

Burgerman wrote:Logic never fails

You missed my point. Logic fails every day because the world is not always logical everywhere. Very many things have a chaotic nature, or are partially chaotic, or cyclically chaotic [url]logistic map, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovJcsL7vyrk[/url], fundamentally resistive to logical prediction or interpretation.

I remember what happened yesterday, I remember what happened 10 minutes ago, I don't always remember what happened 3 seconds ago. I use logic to deduce where I am and how I got there. It works most of the time, but sometimes strange things happen quickly. People expect me to react to what just happened, but I don't remember yet. So the reaction they get from me is a response based on something that didn't actually happen, but the most logical thing which I assume happened. Logic is just a set of rules for handling data. Garbage in, garbage out.

My neighbor received a letter he was expecting in his mailbox. It is logical to assume that the mailman put it there. Even you, with your amazing powers of logic, would make that conclusion with the facts available. However, the letter was put in my mailbox by mistake, and I delivered it to his box while out enjoying the early morning air. No one saw me. The neighbor only checked his box after the mailman arrived later. The mailman just assumed the letter was one he delivered the day before. It was, he just delivered it to me instead.

"If the world were logical, schools would have all the funding they require and the Government would need to hold a bake sale to build a bomber." -bumper sticker
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Re: IQ

Postby Burgerman » 13 Sep 2021, 04:18

You missed my point. Logic fails every day because the world is not always logical everywhere. Very many things have a chaotic nature, or are partially chaotic, or cyclically chaotic [url]logistic map, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovJcsL7vyrk[/url], fundamentally resistive to logical prediction or interpretation.


THAT is not a fail of logic. Its a lack of information. Logic CANNOT fail. And no I have not missed the point. You cannot apply logic to anything that is not known. Or understood. Or measured etc. Logic deals with facts. And only facts. Because the world and most of the people in it are completely illogical is not a failure of logic.

I remember what happened yesterday, I remember what happened 10 minutes ago, I don't always remember what happened 3 seconds ago. I use logic to deduce where I am and how I got there. It works most of the time,

No it works ALL of the time or your idea of logic isnt... What you are calling logic is just a calculated guess based on incomplete information. Logic never fails. Ever. Whats failed is your understanding of how to think logically.

but sometimes strange things happen quickly. People expect me to react to what just happened, but I don't remember yet. So the reaction they get from me is a response based on something that didn't actually happen, but the most logical thing which I assume happened. Logic is just a set of rules for handling data. Garbage in, garbage out.

Correct. Garbage in means NO LOGICAL CONCLUSION. Thats called a guess. A Guess with some higher than average probability most of the time. That IS NOT LOGIC!

My neighbor received a letter he was expecting in his mailbox. It is logical to assume that the mailman put it there.

NO!!! No it isnt. That is a guess based on probability. That is a failure of your understanding of logic. This is why I say people need to be taught to think logically in schools over and above all else.

Even you, with your amazing powers of logic, would make that conclusion with the facts available.

ABSOLUTELY NOT. You have no idea how logic works. Because the only fact you have is a letter. You do NOT know who delivered it. You can make an educated guess. Thats a probability higher than 50 percent. But you cannot know. So no I would accept that it likely came from the postman with a moderate probability. Or maybe a neibour, or a love letter from the BBC delivered by the TV licence goon.

However, the letter was put in my mailbox by mistake, and I delivered it to his box while out enjoying the early morning air. No one saw me. The neighbor only checked his box after the mailman arrived later. The mailman just assumed the letter was one he delivered the day before. It was, he just delivered it to me instead.

Exactly! Thats why "assumptions" are not logic. They are guesswork.
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Re: IQ

Postby Fedor » 14 Sep 2021, 15:34

I don't seem to have a problem with communication (I think so, haha) and I don't know what my IQ is, but my knowledge often brings me stress.
When people think wrong and do something potentially dangerous and I can't prove it to them and they won't understand simple arguments, I get frustrated and stressed, especially if it's people close to me and my friends.
Of course everyone is responsible for their own lives and we are essentially loners, but in our situations we often depend on people and it's hard to accept.

The world is imperfect.
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Re: IQ

Postby biscuit » 14 Sep 2021, 16:06

You cannot apply logic to anything that is not known. Or understood. Or measured etc. Logic deals with facts. And only facts.

Of course you can. It is the point of logic. It does not require any observation. Observation can be wrong. Large groups of highly intelligent people who agree with each other can be wrong. Logic cannot be wrong.
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Re: IQ

Postby Burgerman » 14 Sep 2021, 18:41

No you cant. My room is 16 feet x 12 feet. What is its volume? There are insufficient facts to work it out. At which point you say I DONT KNOW.

The size of a group (that agree) has absolutely no bearing on anything. 3/4 of the planet have an imaginary freind. And it is not logical. Neither does their level of intelligence have anything to do with it. Or their qualification or standing. Wrong is wrong regardless and if they were to use LOGIC they would not be wrong. They may conclude that they DO NOT KNOW which is frequently the correct answer. That happens when theres insufficient known facts.

But you are correct that logic cannot ever be wrong. Logic only deals with the known facts. The fact may be missunderstood, and the position science holds on a fact is always tentative. Everything is always up for question. Its about the level of, or the degree of confidence or certainty. For e.g. gravity is still a theory. One that is pretty well tested. And we know what causes it (e=mc2). We know if you drop a hammer it will fall. But thats still a TENTATIVE position. We call that a theory in physics because nothing with mass has ever been shown to not fall if released. So far. It is ALWAYS a probability call. To the layman in normal life we accept that as a fact. Because not to do so would be perverse. Until something falls upwards. Logic can only deal with facts.
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Re: IQ

Postby slomobile » 17 Sep 2021, 15:58

Norm MacDonald - Professor of Logic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oseqh7SMIvo
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Re: IQ

Postby slomobile » 17 Sep 2021, 16:24

Incidently, "My room is 16 feet x 12 feet. What is its volume? "
Ceiling heights are standardized so studs, wall coverings, doorways, and building codes can also be standardized. If you lived in the US, logic would imply that the room volume is approximately 16x12x8 ~ 1500 cu ft, or 16x12x10 ~ 1900 cu ft a slightly less common standard. You could have 13.7" high walls, or 16ft ceilings in 12 ft long hallway that is only 13.7" wide. I don't know, but it isn't likely, so it would be illogical for me to assume those weird dimensions. Logic is the tool we use to fill in(approximate) the unknowns when we don't have perfect information. Logic can certainly fail, in so many ways. Is your floor level? Are you accounting for crown molding? Warped lumber? The point is to get you close enough to the truth that you have useful information. Not perfect information.
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Re: IQ

Postby Burgerman » 17 Sep 2021, 17:01

Assumptions like building regs are at best a logical estimation and at worse the mother of all fuck ups. My ceiling is at two very different heights, and my room has an archway where a window once divided the inside from the garden... Every estimation or assumption, has an unknown probability attached.

Incidentally re vid. I own a dog house. No dog. And live alone. So probable guesswork isnt logic. I still have it about a decade after my dog died. Why? Because burglars dont like dogs, esp big german shephards. And his picture is above the door. My front door has another pic. It says "I can make the gate in 2 seconds, can you?"

This helps the burglars make an incorrect logical assumption. So they go elsewhere.
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