8th

[Burgerman]

so 10 shopping days to xmas. Not that I buy anything!
Thn a load of fuss over noting for 1 day and back to normal.

I dont do xmas. You? Just seems like every other day only the TV is more crap, (i dont do TV anyway) and everything is shut. Oh and relatives you didnt see all year that you chose not to...

[martin007]

I have nothing to celebrate at Christmas.
I don't like Christmas.

[Burgerman]

I neither like it or dislike it. I dont really have anything to do with it.

[Arima]

My 2 brothers and wives and I get together to watch football and eat. Not sure why we still exchange gifts but we do. Thanksgiving is the same but without gifts. I'm grateful for the time together with the people who saved my ass when things were the worst.

[Burgerman]

Mmmm. I do gifts but not when the marketing guilt trips me into it but when I choose to for my own reasons. Family? Shouldnt need special holidays either really. But pleased you enjoy it. Still happens here - just no religous nonsense involved. Its was ony a pagan festival in the beginning to celebrate the end of the dark and the start of the light. They got the date 4 days out but not a bad guess... Xstians just stole it for their imaginary freinds "virgin" birth. If you ask me she may have been using a rather bad excuse for getting pregnant. That never seems to occur to the believers! Mary was a good time girl. If she ever existed.

[Arima]

but not when the marketing guilt trips me into it but when I choose to for my own reasons

I feel exactly the same way about Valentines Day! I think you mentioned a brother once. Do you speak with your siblings often? Both my brothers are older...so they have been beating me up and talking down to me since forever.

[Burgerman]

I have 3. One adopted that vanished off the planet. One that died from complications of diabetes at 54, one thats a year younger than me but lives 20 miles away so seen once or twice a year. So pretty much alone here. Ex gf, few freinds, and a few carers. Everyone else is either dead, moved away or whatever!

[AgGuy]

... Xstians just stole it for their imaginary freinds "virgin" birth..

He's much, much more than an imaginary friend. He created you and me. He gave us free will, which every one of us has used, and continues to use, in ways that are opposite to His will and character. That's sin, which mankind is not capable of overcoming. He loved us so much that he came to earth and suffered a horrible torture and death for you and me, taking our sin upon himself and paying the price for us. It is a free gift to us. All we have to do is admit we are sinners and accept His sacrifice for us.

For many of us, our human pride gets in the way of reconciling with Him. But it is really quite simple.

[Burgerman]

He's much, much more than an imaginary friend. He created you and me. He gave us free will, which every one of us has used, and continues to use, in ways that are opposite to His will and character. That's sin, which mankind is not capable of overcoming. He loved us so much that he came to earth and suffered a horrible torture and death for you and me, taking our sin upon himself and paying the price for us. It is a free gift to us. All we have to do is admit we are sinners and accept His sacrifice for us.

For many of us, our human pride gets in the way of reconciling with Him. But it is really quite simple.

Whats simple is that its all nonsense that is transmitted via brain washing people. Usually but not always while young. Thats why you will find zero evidence in any gods, ghosts, spirits, elves, or any other woo woo. Ever. I had a dream. Or other such testimonial stuff is not evidence of anything. I "KNOW" its real without evidence is caused by your brainwashing. And if you were to hold this nonsense to the same rational values as everything else you could see this. But once programmed you are unable to do this.

[Burgerman]

A question.
How do you know your god is a "him"? And no, the bible isnt evidence of anything. Ask yourself where your idea even came from.

Another question.
How do you know that she created you?

Another another question...
Who created your god? You see it answers nothing! You think you needed a god to create you. Yet you think that a god created itself... Its all contradictory woo woo. The real problem is this. If you cant demonstrate usin rational evidence based information as to why its true. Adequate to convince me, or any scientist. Then you shouldnt believe it either. But it wont stop you and instead will just probably get angry and make stuff up to support your unsupportable position. This is because of your mental conditioning. I dont blame you. Its not your fault it was done to you.

Regarding free will. Science and the evidence we already understand says there IS no free will. The universe and phhysics doesent allow this.

[AgGuy]

A question.
How do you know your god is a "him"? And no, the bible isnt evidence of anything. Ask yourself where your idea even came from.

Another question.
How do you know that she created you?

Another another question...
Who created your god? You see it answers nothing! You think you needed a god to create you. Yet you think that a god created itself... Its all contradictory woo woo. The real problem is this. If you cant demonstrate usin rational evidence based information as to why its true. Adequate to convince me, or any scientist. Then you shouldnt believe it either. But it wont stop you and instead will just probably get angry and make stuff up to support your unsupportable position. This is because of your mental conditioning. I dont blame you. Its not your fault it was done to you.

Regarding free will. Science and the evidence we already understand says there IS no free will. The universe and phhysics doesent allow this.

I'm not angry at all. Like you, I think very rationally and analytical. I'm not a scientist by training, but my entire career has been using science to discover and develop helpful things. I've learned that an essential part of product development is being open minded. My faith in Jesus didn't come from mental conditioning, and it didn't come from scientific research. Many, many things led me here, including careful investigation.

I don't want to argue or beat you over the head, but I do wish you would investigate for yourself.

[Burgerman]

Thats the problem. There are no facts to investigate. And nothing else matters. You are claiming to have detected the undetectable. As such you shouldnt believe it either or any other type of woo woo. But while you dont think that you were brainwashed the fact that you believe in some impossible to verify sky god nonsense is simply not rational. If so, lets see it. If it was real, and you believed for good reasons, then you could easily demonstrate the truth of your claims to me or anyone else. But I wasnt after an argument. I was just asking for some evidence to support your outlandish claims. Beause the subject of religion facinates me. I dont get how some rational people can be indoctrinated so easily.

How do I see it? In the same way that if I told you I had an invisible 6 legged dog in my garage that created you and me, you should not just believe me, would want some kind of factual evidence. Or you would be bonkers. I am doing exactly this to you. So what is it? This IS the same exact situation and question. Just swapped position. It is no less valid or rediculous. If you cannot see that then this is because you are conditioned.

So I ask again, is your god male? Since you call it a him. And the importan part is, HOW DO YOU KNOW?
And equally important how do you know it exists?
Another question... Why are you not a muslim or a sun god worshipper or whatever? The IDEA of an xstian god was introduced to you during your conditioning. In the same way that most indian peoPle are brainwashed into the hindu religion. It just depends where you live...

[AgGuy]

Assume for a moment their is a one and only God who created all things. Don't you think He and His deeds would be beyond human comprehension?

I like the quote, "you can see a lot just by looking". When I "look", I see the complexity of our universe, our earth, our life, and the interactions of these. As science makes more and more fascinating discoveries, it magnifies this even more. The field of genetics, for example, has advanced very rapidly in the past twenty years. Our understanding of the complexities of life has increased exponentially, and there is no reason to believe that will not continue. Modern science attempts to answer this with the theory of evolution, the big bang, and other scientific theories which are just that, theories.

I could add much more, but with a closed mind to the idea of God, much of what I would say would be shot down. If you are so inclined, I could provide links to Christian apologists that run circles around me explaining what man is able discern about God.

[martin007]

Christmas is now a consumerist holiday.

[Burgerman]

They all are. But marketing nd advertising and people trying to seperate me from my money doesent work on me.

[martin007]

But marketing nd advertising and people trying to seperate me from my money doesent work on me.

You (and me) are an exception.
A large percentage of the population is unable to think...

[Burgerman]

Assume for a moment their is a one and only God who created all things. Don't you think He and His deeds would be beyond human comprehension?

Why on earth would any rational person that wasnt brainwashed to believe nonsense would even consider such irrational thoughts? An assumption? Do you know what an assumption is? Yep, its "the mother of all fuck-ups"...

Then assume for a moment that the invisible 6 legged dog in my garage did the same. And while at it, also created your god. All you got to do is "open your mind" but not so far as you brain falls out.
This is exactly the SAME rediculous idea. If you have to assume anything then your argument is nonsense. Unless you have some strong repeaable testable evidence that is strong enough to prove to me (and any rational being) that your argument is a good one. You would if sane for e.g want some EVIDENCE of my 6 legged dog. And not that it only had extra legs but that it did do what I claimed. Wouldnt you. I bet your mental conditioning is thinking that these 2 argments are not the same thing. But thats because your mind cannot accept the real facts. IT IS the same thing. But you create different "rules" in your head for your god and my 6 legged dog. You SHOULD see this if rational. And it probably feels like an attack. It isnt. Your mind is "programmed" by your religion. Its not your fault. And its not a personal attack. Its just LOGIC 101. Something you cant confront.

I like the quote, "you can see a lot just by looking". When I "look", I see the complexity of our universe, our earth, our life, and the interactions of these.

The old "I dont understand it" argment from personal incredubility. Therefore invernt someone elses "god" that did it... But it answers nothing. Because who do you suppose "made" your even more incredible god? Thats a frankly stupid argument. Heres how it really goes:
We dont know how we came about (but we do in fact) so lets investigate. Not lets make up a god we cant see or detect. Thats completely irrational. Without EVIDENCE. Oh look at the trees! Lol.

As science makes more and more fascinating discoveries, it magnifies this even more. The field of genetics, for example, has advanced very rapidly in the past twenty years. Our understanding of the complexities of life has increased exponentially, and there is no reason to believe that will not continue. Modern science attempts to answer this with the theory of evolution, the big bang, and other scientific theories which are just that, theories.

No it doesent attempt to answer anything. It imply investigates everything and our collective knowledge grows. One day we may fully understand what caused life to begin. How common this is etc. For now we only KNOW how life evolved aftr it began. Right back to single celled organisms billons of years back.
The word theory in science does not mean I have a theory a god did it. It is a statement made that fits all the known facts about an initial idea. Gravity is a theory. All the facts say so. Einstein explained how and why it works. And as far as we know nothing ever proved einstein wrong and all the theory predictive pwers just keep adding up. Millions of things work because of this theory. Even your sat nav and atom bombs. The big bang fits only around 2/3rds the facts. Evolution fits ALL of the facts. A simply massive jigsaw of interlocking facts and genetics just reinforces it. So we KNOW evolution is true. But even if a scientist makes a discovery that puts a hole in this theory tomorrow, and sinks it, it adds zero to your god claim. That still has ZERO evidence at all.

I could add much more, but with a closed mind to the idea of God, much of what I would say would be shot down. If you are so inclined, I could provide links to Christian apologists that run circles around me explaining what man is able discern about God.

The expert appologists talk nonsense and circular arguments. I watch the athiest experience every sunday for a laugh with thousands of expert xstians and many more heavily religous pastors and individuals. They never came even close to making a reasoned argument for the existance of a god. In 20 years. Theres about half a dozen arguments. All seriously flawed. So no you couldnt show me one unless its something fresh that I havent already seen and heard.
I dont have a closed mind. I have a RATIONAL mind. I am totally open to FACTS. Logic, evidence and reason. But there isnt any in the case of gods, elves, fairies, and all the rest. NON. Zero. Even though religions (hundreds of different ones over eons of time have desperately tried to show the opposite.

I could add much more, but with a closed mind to the idea of God, much of what I would say would be shot down.

If I could shoot it down with logic and reson then t IS NOT A GOOD ARGUMENT! And if you were not conditioned you would see and understand this. But xstians twist and turn and do everything possible when they lose the argment as they CANNOT allow themselves to see the reality of the truth. Because they have actual physical brain neuron pathways that the brain conditioning causes. Usually to a plastic young brain. But not always while young.


Question.
Why is it that when I ask a question, in several different posts above, you never answer any of them them? I answer all yours. Do so without posting links to the usual xstian appologist nonsense. Be honest and answer my questions in the posts above. You certainly SHOULD be able if your brain is free to think.

[AgGuy]

I haven't answered some of the questions because I was trying to go to the heart of the matter, instead of getting into a debate about endless questions that all stem from a non-belief in God.

[Burgerman]

No. The reason I asked those particular questions is because they (and many others I havent asked yet) make you confront your illogical belief. And that makes you uncomfortable. It should do. That was the whole point. What you have is everything backwards because of your mental conditioning. I am trying to make you see this. Trying to answer my wquestions is my attempt to make you confront this by using obvious simple logic.

You seem to think that the logical starting point is to believe. And that to NOT believe is a problem. Its the opposite way around. The reason you will not answer is because it makes you confront this.

The ONLY time you should believe ANYTHING, is when the evidence shows this to be true. Up till this point you SHOULD be skeptical of all such claims. Or you would need to believe all such claims equally, like my 6 legged dog. Thats why you do not believe in my universe creating 6 legged dog - you are correctly skeptical. Yet with exactly the same level of evidence as your god claim. None. This was just a way to attempt to make you understand that you have a different level of logic and required evidnce on your specific god, than you do for everything else in life. You are not a sun god believer are you. You quite correctly would want some proof in the form of evidence. Not personal testimony. That is valueless. You suspend your natural skepticism only when it comes to your particular choosen god. Except you didnt even choose it. And thats because of mental conditioning. You simply took the god that those around you already had.

Another question.

If it isnt all just mental conditioning, like training a dog. Usually done while you are young and so this "belief" forms physical connections.in your brain. (a young plastic brain learns from its elders, so if told dont jump off the cliff or hold your hand in the fire, you believe it - nature designed the young brain that way to help protect you from harm). Then why else do you think the church always wants you while you are young? Give me the child and I will give you the man, as the saying goes... So why arent you a muslim?

This is why you believe in your particular god. Thats why you dont believe in Ra, the greek gods, hindu gods, its why you are not a muslim. Or any of the hundreds of alternative gods or beliefs. You wont answer this either... Because theres no logical answer for you. Because almost always the population "take on" the god that the majority have where they happen to live. If you were born in india the chances are you would think xstianity was nonsense, in ancient egypt you would have been a Ra supporter... Your god would be the sun.

Yet you dont want to confront such things. Its the same reason you hold a different level of required evidence for my 6 legged dog as you apply the correct level of sceptisism than you do for your god.

Thats why you cant and dont want to "get into answering questions". It mentally hurts you. You cant confront it. Without twisting everything around to make the facts fir your belief. And thats hurts you. Its NOT a personal attack. Its just an attempt to make you see this. I use simple logic. You want to, but are unable to do so. And there lies the contradiction. And like all believers and so called appologists, you will weave a never ending twisted path of nonsense to try and save your mental conditioning from being proved wrong or illogical because it is, and you know it. But dont want to confront it. Anyway if it hurts you so much. Forget it. Am not trying to hurt you, just make you see reality.