P&G VSI 50A

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Re: P&G VSI 50A

Postby Burgerman » 27 May 2021, 08:02

No.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3790

But you dont need this. You specifically said you dont want RC. It turns the RC servo output from the reciever which is a pulse width signal at a specific frequency, to an analog voltage swing.

You just need to build some simple electronics to MIMIC the 2 channels analog voltage swing where the actual joystick currently connects to the PCB. As already explained in posts 2, 3 and several other places by three people.

TAKE a look at how a typical joystick actually works so you understand what we are all telling you.
https://docs.rs-online.com/2cdc/0900766b81400feb.pdf

You can simulate that with simple voltage divider resistors, and a voltage reference or the 5v supplied to the existing joystick unit. Because you dont want it to be proportional.
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Re: P&G VSI 50A

Postby LROBBINS » 27 May 2021, 08:57

No, that's for a Dynamic Shark and its joystick device internally converts voltage to digital output, but Woody certainly has shown how to use a digipot + Arduino (and you don't need the RC input to do that) and I did it years ago with just 4066 digital switches and some voltage dividers (for both an old, single-board analog controller and for a Dynamic DX). If push came to shove I could probably find the ancient schematics somewhere in my archives.
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Re: P&G VSI 50A

Postby nani13 » 27 May 2021, 09:28

Burgerman wrote:No.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3790

But you dont need this. You specifically said you dont want RC. It turns the RC servo output from the reciever which is a pulse width signal at a specific frequency, to an analog voltage swing.

You just need to build some simple electronics to MIMIC the 2 channels analog voltage swing where the actual joystick currently connects to the PCB. As already explained in posts 2, 3 and several other places by three people.

TAKE a look at how a typical joystick actually works so you understand what we are all telling you.
https://docs.rs-online.com/2cdc/0900766b81400feb.pdf

You can simulate that with simple voltage divider resistors, and a voltage reference or the 5v supplied to the existing joystick unit. Because you dont want it to be proportional.



Many thanks. That is very clear and actually my polytechnic received the wheelchair with the controller today. Since there is no schematic available online, next week with my teacher's assistance, will open up the controller and try to mimic the signal the joystick gives out. I will update you all on the progress, meanwhile thanks for the advice and guidance really appreciate it. Just here to learn more about my project.
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Re: P&G VSI 50A

Postby nani13 » 27 May 2021, 09:30

LROBBINS wrote:No, that's for a Dynamic Shark and its joystick device internally converts voltage to digital output, but Woody certainly has shown how to use a digipot + Arduino (and you don't need the RC input to do that) and I did it years ago with just 4066 digital switches and some voltage dividers (for both an old, single-board analog controller and for a Dynamic DX). If push came to shove I could probably find the ancient schematics somewhere in my archives.


do provide the schematic sir, if that's possible. If you cant find it its ok, I will be opening up the controller to see for myself next week.
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Re: P&G VSI 50A

Postby LROBBINS » 27 May 2021, 12:21

I've tried to find a schematic of the voltage divider joystick emulator, but so far haven't found one. The oldest I've found in my files is one from 1999 but it is a 4066-based adapter for a Dynamic 4SW digital, rather than analog, interface (and it is more complex as it has switch control of Rachi's voice-output computer as well as for driving). In the meantime, I'm attaching the spec sheet for a fairly common type of joystick as it might be useful. These use Hall effect sensors, while yours may well use inductive sensors, but the wiring layout and various sensitivity and voltage options are similar for both.

Ooops, that file is too large to upload here, so here's a Google Drive link that you can use to download it:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VwBL2nrOFba-bxkxgoOjpIQelE2W92Ra/view?usp=sharing
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Re: P&G VSI 50A

Postby woodygb » 27 May 2021, 12:45

The Vsi will contain a JC2000 or MAID joystick.
https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/30691.pdf

The easiest way in my opinion to control the motors is to emulate the joysticks output.

NOTE:- That each Axis ... X & Y ...has dual ( two ) voltage swings that must match each other within a set % .

The voltage swing is 1.2v - 1.3v each side of a 2.5v center.

Dual voltage joystick same sense d.jpg


Here is a vid of project that I did.... the PP3 battery holder contains everything required ...this being a 5V regulator , Arduino Pro Mini , HC06 Bluetooth module and a MCP4261.


youtu.be/KQy1xbo9tNE
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Re: P&G VSI 50A

Postby nani13 » 28 May 2021, 07:33

LROBBINS wrote:I've tried to find a schematic of the voltage divider joystick emulator, but so far haven't found one. The oldest I've found in my files is one from 1999 but it is a 4066-based adapter for a Dynamic 4SW digital, rather than analog, interface (and it is more complex as it has switch control of Rachi's voice-output computer as well as for driving). In the meantime, I'm attaching the spec sheet for a fairly common type of joystick as it might be useful. These use Hall effect sensors, while yours may well use inductive sensors, but the wiring layout and various sensitivity and voltage options are similar for both.

Ooops, that file is too large to upload here, so here's a Google Drive link that you can use to download it:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VwBL2nrOFba-bxkxgoOjpIQelE2W92Ra/view?usp=sharing


thank you so much LROBBINS! I am glad to be able to learn so much knowledge from you
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Re: P&G VSI 50A

Postby nani13 » 28 May 2021, 07:34

woodygb wrote:The Vsi will contain a JC2000 or MAID joystick.
https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/30691.pdf

The easiest way in my opinion to control the motors is to emulate the joysticks output.

NOTE:- That each Axis ... X & Y ...has dual ( two ) voltage swings that must match each other within a set % .

The voltage swing is 1.2v - 1.3v each side of a 2.5v center.

Dual voltage joystick same sense d.jpg


Here is a vid of project that I did.... the PP3 battery holder contains everything required ...this being a 5V regulator , Arduino Pro Mini , HC06 Bluetooth module and a MCP4261.


youtu.be/KQy1xbo9tNE


many thanks woodygb! your kindness is highly appreciated :D
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Re: P&G VSI 50A

Postby nani13 » 29 May 2021, 09:49

Update: Just received the wheelchair with the controller. Will be opening it up next week
Attachments
photo_2021-05-29_16-47-46.jpg
photo_2021-05-29_16-47-38.jpg
photo_2021-05-29_16-47-48.jpg
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Re: P&G VSI 50A

Postby woodygb » 29 May 2021, 10:16

It will look something like this inside.
Note this is the inside of an older 6 button Vsi.
vsi 6 button2.jpg
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Re: P&G VSI 50A

Postby Burgerman » 29 May 2021, 12:09

The arm tops are on the wrong sides!
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Re: P&G VSI 50A

Postby nani13 » 29 May 2021, 20:04

woodygb wrote:It will look something like this inside.
Note this is the inside of an older 6 button Vsi.
vsi 6 button2.jpg


May I ask did you use the TORX10x70 driver to dismantle the controller? It is a hard driver to find in Singapore, might need to purchase online.
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Re: P&G VSI 50A

Postby nani13 » 29 May 2021, 20:04

Burgerman wrote:The arm tops are on the wrong sides!


It was delivered that way, might need to adjust it tomorrow
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Re: P&G VSI 50A

Postby woodygb » 29 May 2021, 20:25

nani13 wrote:May I ask did you use the TORX10x70 driver to dismantle the controller? It is a hard driver to find in Singapore, might need to purchase online.


No idea on the exact type/model of Torx ...I just rummaged through my tools and found one that suited.
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Re: P&G VSI 50A

Postby nani13 » 31 May 2021, 05:59

We have managed to open up the controller, but we are not able to measure the signal given from controller, do we desolder the PCB, or transfer the signal to a breadboard as middle ground to measure it. We measured pin 7 as common ground but we are not able to measure the other pins. The red, black, green, yellow blue wires might be on the other side of the board. Any advice will be appreciated thanks
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Re: P&G VSI 50A

Postby Burgerman » 31 May 2021, 08:41

The info you need was already posted here https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/30691.pdf

You do whatever it takes to find out what you need to know to emulate the joystick. Whats stopping you measuring it?

Power the joystick and measure its outputs.

Take it apart properly, just to have a proper look. Then if theres no way to access the points you need to measure extend the joystick wires. Better bet bring it here and I will do it all for you! You already know what you need to know as woody posted this already.
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Re: P&G VSI 50A

Postby woodygb » 31 May 2021, 09:52

Nani ...
Control systems with a separate power module have an easily identifiable signal wire ( or sometimes 2 wires ), the VSi is however an All In One controller and as such doesn't have any signal wire.

IF you have an electronics Guru you MIGHT be able to hack in at the boards component level...but I doubt it.

NO signals come from the board to the JC2000 ..only 5v and GND are supplied by the board.

So I.M.O. you either need to emulate the signals that COME FROM THE JOYSTICK ...or get a different control system with a separate power module so that you can attempt to decode the signal going between the joystick pod and the power module.

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Re: P&G VSI 50A

Postby woodygb » 31 May 2021, 11:02

nani.jpg
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Re: P&G VSI 50A

Postby nani13 » 01 Jun 2021, 06:57

woodygb wrote:
nani.jpg


Am I correctly interpreting this, by sending 5V to the joystick, pin 1 and 3, we shall in turn receive the respective output voltage at pin 2,4,5,7 depending on joystick direction?
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Re: P&G VSI 50A

Postby woodygb » 01 Jun 2021, 08:12

nani13 wrote:
woodygb wrote:
nani.jpg


Am I correctly interpreting this, by sending 5V to the joystick, pin 1 and 3, we shall in turn receive the respective output voltage at pin 2,4,5,7 depending on joystick direction?


Yes.

Connectors.

https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/deta ... LF/1537945
https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/deta ... lf/4417982
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Re: P&G VSI 50A

Postby woodygb » 01 Jun 2021, 08:25

Ribbon
https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/deta ... -R/2391672

Does your ribbon cable unplug from the pods board?.... if so , check VERY CAREFULLY how the 8 pin sockets are crimped to the ribbon cable.

Why? .... Because the numbering system from one end to the other of the ribbon will have changed IF the connectors have been crimped facing opposite sides of the ribbon.
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Re: P&G VSI 50A

Postby nani13 » 04 Jun 2021, 08:57

woodygb wrote:
nani13 wrote:
woodygb wrote:
nani.jpg


Am I correctly interpreting this, by sending 5V to the joystick, pin 1 and 3, we shall in turn receive the respective output voltage at pin 2,4,5,7 depending on joystick direction?


Yes.

Connectors.

https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/deta ... LF/1537945
https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/deta ... lf/4417982


I bought them and now waiting for their arrival, will update if it works.
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Re: P&G VSI 50A

Postby Burgerman » 04 Jun 2021, 12:36

Now you understand what I meant by "doing all your homework for you".

We have eventually ended up with you doing exactly what we suggested in the 2nd post. And explained step by step how to do it. This much was obvious to those of us that have done this all before the hard way by figuring it all out ourselves. By post 2... :argument

And in the end after messing about for weeks you will come to realise why I said wrong chair, wrong controller etc to be wasting your time on.

Because its a long slow learning curve so you dont understand this yet. Whilst the R-Net system, and a decent 4 pole powerchair for e.g. initially costs more it is going to be vastly more capable for the end users with much greater flexibility for individual needs. Vastly more options and modules available, and more power that the users will require. And 20 years of firmware, sofware and programming options and flexibility that you do not yet really understand that you need. Now as I said if this is just some learning exersize for your education, college then non of that matters.
If however the end result is primarily to help the users then you are basically wasting your time as you will never have a suitable system with that controller.

So the reason you are doing this is important.
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Re: P&G VSI 50A

Postby nani13 » 05 Jun 2021, 19:55

Burgerman wrote:Now you understand what I meant by "doing all your homework for you".

We have eventually ended up with you doing exactly what we suggested in the 2nd post. And explained step by step how to do it. This much was obvious to those of us that have done this all before the hard way by figuring it all out ourselves. By post 2... :argument

And in the end after messing about for weeks you will come to realise why I said wrong chair, wrong controller etc to be wasting your time on.

Because its a long slow learning curve so you dont understand this yet. Whilst the R-Net system, and a decent 4 pole powerchair for e.g. initially costs more it is going to be vastly more capable for the end users with much greater flexibility for individual needs. Vastly more options and modules available, and more power that the users will require. And 20 years of firmware, sofware and programming options and flexibility that you do not yet really understand that you need. Now as I said if this is just some learning exersize for your education, college then non of that matters.
If however the end result is primarily to help the users then you are basically wasting your time as you will never have a suitable system with that controller.

So the reason you are doing this is important.


Not really, and to be very honest I do not understand why you said wrong chair or controller. Its my school's decision and its not yours. I have already mentioned the wheelchair is used in the center we have to get the same one. And the school's decision and learning objective you have to understand is more of a learning experience more than finding a suitable solution. So I do not know why you are so triggered xD
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Re: P&G VSI 50A

Postby Burgerman » 05 Jun 2021, 23:12

I am not triggered. Theres two options here.

Trying to explain to someone with no clue what disabled users actually need, with ignorance about about powerchairs and users is frustrating you think you know what you are doing precisely because you know very little. If the object is to actually help people, then you need to advise the "centre" that they are using the wrong base chair and wrong control system. The chair you are trying to modify is only suitable for those that can walk and have normal hands etc. And just need a litte help in shopping centres etc. And to be portable and light and cheap. It is not a proper fully configurable rehab stye chair. So for the type of users you are trying to help is really not suitable. Especially when you begin to try and add digital control etc. That system isnt setup in any way to do this safely or wth adequate power or control in its firmware/software of configurability. It doesent matter if this is the chair "they use" or not. Its wrong period! And wholy unsuitable for complex controls etc for several good reasons. And asking here in this case was a good idea.

Yes you dont understand. Thats why its frustrating.

Now if its just a teaching excersize then it doesent matter. If the end user isnt important. Only your education. As long as you understand that its not going to be much real world use when you have finished. And that far better systems and chairs that are much safer and more configurable DESIGNED from the outset to do this already exist. But in that case YOU should have done the work, measured and figured everything out, and made an interface etc on your own in order to learn. In this case the end user is irrelivant, the whole point was to learn and figure it out. To exersize you brain and do the work. Not gone to a forum like this and got us here to give you all the information. Because that then defeats the purpose of your lessons. Which is why I say you came here to let us do your homework.

Again. Yes you dont understand. Thats why its frustrating. Its all the stuff that you have no clue about that means you think you do understand!
A great man once said that the least intelligent are sure they know. The most intelligent (and the most experienced) understand a lot more and realise how little they know.

You say its a learning experience. So what are you going to learn by asking us on here how to do it? Take it apart, investigate and figre it out! THATS how I learned how to do this 20 years ago. With a multimeter. Some simple electronics. And testing and measurement. I didnt go ask someone!
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Re: P&G VSI 50A

Postby nani13 » 06 Jun 2021, 11:40

Burgerman wrote:I am not triggered. Theres two options here.

Trying to explain to someone with no clue what disabled users actually need, with ignorance about about powerchairs and users is frustrating you think you know what you are doing precisely because you know very little. If the object is to actually help people, then you need to advise the "centre" that they are using the wrong base chair and wrong control system. The chair you are trying to modify is only suitable for those that can walk and have normal hands etc. And just need a litte help in shopping centres etc. And to be portable and light and cheap. It is not a proper fully configurable rehab stye chair. So for the type of users you are trying to help is really not suitable. Especially when you begin to try and add digital control etc. That system isnt setup in any way to do this safely or wth adequate power or control in its firmware/software of configurability. It doesent matter if this is the chair "they use" or not. Its wrong period! And wholy unsuitable for complex controls etc for several good reasons. And asking here in this case was a good idea.

Yes you dont understand. Thats why its frustrating.

Now if its just a teaching excersize then it doesent matter. If the end user isnt important. Only your education. As long as you understand that its not going to be much real world use when you have finished. And that far better systems and chairs that are much safer and more configurable DESIGNED from the outset to do this already exist. But in that case YOU should have done the work, measured and figured everything out, and made an interface etc on your own in order to learn. In this case the end user is irrelivant, the whole point was to learn and figure it out. To exersize you brain and do the work. Not gone to a forum like this and got us here to give you all the information. Because that then defeats the purpose of your lessons. Which is why I say you came here to let us do your homework.

Again. Yes you dont understand. Thats why its frustrating. Its all the stuff that you have no clue about that means you think you do understand!
A great man once said that the least intelligent are sure they know. The most intelligent (and the most experienced) understand a lot more and realise how little they know.

You say its a learning experience. So what are you going to learn by asking us on here how to do it? Take it apart, investigate and figre it out! THATS how I learned how to do this 20 years ago. With a multimeter. Some simple electronics. And testing and measurement. I didnt go ask someone!


xD, Burgerman your a funny guy you know. Either way, I bought the connectors and now waiting for them to arrive so we can test the voltage measurements for the axis swings.
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Re: P&G VSI 50A

Postby Burgerman » 06 Jun 2021, 16:51

Woody already told you that. Its 1.2V swing either side of the reference voltage and centrepoint.
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Re: P&G VSI 50A

Postby nani13 » 15 Jun 2021, 17:18

woodygb wrote:Ribbon
https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/deta ... -R/2391672

Does your ribbon cable unplug from the pods board?.... if so , check VERY CAREFULLY how the 8 pin sockets are crimped to the ribbon cable.

Why? .... Because the numbering system from one end to the other of the ribbon will have changed IF the connectors have been crimped facing opposite sides of the ribbon.


Is this the correct ribbon? The pitch is 1mm instead of the usual 2mm. Also update: I have managed to measure the voltage swings coming from the joystick. Using DIY wires I made from female crimps, I connected the joystick to 5V from power source and ground, measuring the voltage output using DMM of pins 2,7,4 and 5. Now the issue is overwriting the controller safety precaution. The controller can only be turnt on when the joystick cover is alligned probably with the PCB, as I tried to connect the ribbon from PCB to the joystick output with my DIY wires, it doesnt work. How do I overcome this difficulty? Or how am I able to use the controller without the need for the cover to be enclosed?
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Re: P&G VSI 50A

Postby woodygb » 15 Jun 2021, 17:29

Strange question to ask about the ribbon pitch ...measure yours and tell me what your ribbon pitch is.

The 4 voltages ( 2 off X & 2 off Y ) MUST be 2.5v at start up AND Vs/2 must also be 2.5v.

This might help you ...

ard joy.jpg
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Re: P&G VSI 50A

Postby woodygb » 15 Jun 2021, 18:14

I have my interfaces EXTERNAL.

VR2 EXTERNAL.jpg

SKIP4.jpg
vr2 connections B.gif
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