Need advice -> new chair very soon!

[StanFL]

I am a C5-6 quad with this September being 40 years in a power chair. I have been teaching mostly high school social studies for 29 years here in Florida. A power chair is for sitting in BUT not sitting still in! Like The Beach Boys sang, *Round Round Git Around, I Git Around*

Chair History+ 30 years of rear-wheel drive E and J chairs, a Quickie in late 1990s, a customized no-name clunker, and in 2002 a front-wheel drive Permobil Chairmen 2K. I still can NOT drive this front-wheel drive chair! Comfortable to sit in but I hit too many things from behind on turns and fish-tail often. My Permobil has tilt, recline, elevating legs and elevating seat. Did I mention I hate front-wheel drive?

Time in chair ... I am in my chair from about 6 am until midnight and on weekends even longer.

New chair ...Permobil in need of extensive wear and tear parts. I am permitted by my insurance company to get a new chair. Rah! Rah! Rah!
Needs... tilt, recline, power leg rests, high back, REAR-WHEEL drive, good drive/torque for outside and inside driving
Wants...elevating seat with ability to drive when elevated or reclined, does not fall apart easily as I drive across the football field, foam inserts in tires, a little more speed with empty hallways I drag my butt every so slowly, will not fry motors if caught in the heavy Florida rain, torque and more torque through thick grass and sandy areas-not the beach.

My options given by wheelchair company...
Quickie 636
Invacare Torque 3
Quantum R-4000
and my favorite the Street Corpus by Permobil

Can you guys help with the good, the bad, and the ugly on these chairs?
I go for my evaluation the second week of June when school is out.
I have watched YouTube -> power wheelchair comparison

Posting here will help everyone.
Emailing to me, too, will help me when in a hurry. StanFL@Verizon.net

Thank you in advance.

Stan

[StanFL]

Almost forgot another want that is a safety need ... lights on the chair and tie downs for transport or EZ Lock.

What I have been using for a light is my laptop, turned on and facing traffic as my headlight! All-purpose Macintosh!
Playing iTunes with ELO and Beach Boys

[Burgerman]

The Pride chair is heavy, very ugly bum, no suspension I could feel (ouch) and all parts are very expensive... And programming or control is as bad as it gets.

For torque (you want!) go for the slowest HD 4 pole motors, (4 or 5 mph) and the biggest controller (amps) on all chairs. And make very sure that a OEM level programmer for any system is accessible to you before you decide. FASTER = LESS TORQUE. LOWER AMPS MEAN LESS TORQUE. 2 POLE MOTORS MEAN LESS TORQUE. BAD (ALL ARE) STANDARD OEM LEVEL PROGRAMMING = LESS TORQUE.

SMALLER BATTERIES = LESS TORQUE. AIM TO GET GROUP 24 BATTERIES. Group 22nf are usually fitted to chairs with seat risers... These are too small, dont have the torque or the range required. And dont last well due to the higher average DOD levels.

Also ALL rear drive commecial powerchairs are very nose heavy causing all kinds of issues, from lower range, less control, less rear grip, overworked casters etc. The worst here seems to be the invacare storm. At least the later models. Caused partly by the seating... And the safety nazi attitude to falling out of the rear on a slope.

Flat free tyres are a terrible idea. Hard, harsh ride and harder to push. Means lower range, shorter battery life, etc. 10 inch (3.00x4) casters are pretty much essential outdoors. Less than this is out of its depth.

That should give you something to think about!

[ex-Gooserider]

If I had my choice of the chairs you mentioned, I'd go for the 636, not because of any greatness "out of the box" but more for it's potential to be upgraded the way that BM and friends have done on the UK F55. The 636 (and the earlier 626 and 646) is the closest US equivalent... I'm currently working on a 626 makeover myself, haven't gotten all that far, but... It also seems that there may be better access to the programming stuff that you'll need for some of your desires, as the chair will NOT come able to do everything you want, but access to the programmer software and cable can cure many ills...

No personal experience, but from what I've heard, Permobil is one of the harder chairs to modify as they are essentially built to fit your presumed needs, based on the evaluation of your DME supplier, and are hard to change after that.

Don't know what your tech skill level is, but I'd imagine you might be able to find someone that could help you with it - perhaps even your HS shop folks.

If your current chair isn't particularly usable in it's current state of repair, I'd consider trying to get something in a used chair to keep you going while getting a BM style chair together - I can't think of any other way to meet your list of desired / required features.

ex-Gooserider

[Martin O Refurbisher]

When I started to want to convert a chair, I bought about 15 different ones over the course of a few months. I quickly learned that most are rubbish! I was by that time about to commit to the Sunrise Quickie F55 then I found this board. Now, it is clear that the hundreds of F55 users in UK can't be wrong and have arrived at a consensus - the best choice in almost every UK case is to start with an F55.

For the US, iaappears that the nearest comparable model is the S626/636/646 range. These have the support of this forum - I know of no other chair with such a following, or anything like it. To me, that alone is a good reason to put it at the top of the list.

Best,

Martin

[Burgerman]

Even though my latest "f55" uses almost non of the F55 at all other than the frame itself in modified form! In fact every part is modified or replaced other than backrest opholstery, and backrest cross bar, and 3 parts of the armrests!

But maybe the original poster just wants to buy a chair and not build/modify one?

[gac3rd]

Sorry to be so late. Don't look at this too often.

I have an old Torque 3 heavy duty, and I think it is a well done chair. If I were buying today I would get a Torque with the Gearless Brushless motors (if you are not too heavy). The S636 might have a better rear suspension, but the front casters are really where where the suspension matters and lacks in all of them. I also have an old S626 that I got to modify, and I am not that impressed. The details are much better taken care of on the Invacare. Of course none of this may be relevant to today's chairs.

As far a chair for modification similar to the BM series, I don't think the S6x6 series is nearly as amenable to this as appears at first glance. After looking at my S626 for awhile, and a few measurements, both my fabrication guy and I came to an independent decision that it would be better to do it from scratch.

[Martin O Refurbisher]

I don't know enough about the US versions to comment in detail, never having seen one, and simply going by the comments, some very detailed, of others on this forum who use them.

To put it in perspective, even if we are goign ot build ourselves a chair from scratch, we are goign ot model it on an existing one, because so much of hte hard work is done for us. BM's BM3 can be traced directly back to an F55, and most users are unlikely to want to be as extreme as he is - nevertheless, he is a great pointer as to what can be achieved.

My approach is to aim to depart from a factory model no more than one needs to, thereby giving ready access to parts and any other suppport which may be required later on down the line, whilst being willing to make such changes as will benefit the user. But then, BM builds to satisfy only his personal needs, and his dedication to pushing the envelope. Each one I re-build is for a different client, with different needs.

Best,

Martin

[Burgerman]

but the front casters are really where where the suspension matters and lacks in all of them

The important thing for comfort is the rear wheels, since once the C oo G is moved back, to get better control, etc, thats where your backside and spine sit. Almost directly. So much so on my chair that it wheelies even on the slowest speed, or while already moving at say half speed at will. The only thing that bothers you with the front wheels is vibration and bumps effectively to your feet.

And here the bigger fatter 9.5 inch 3.00 x4 tyres help considerable compared to smaller skinnier wheels. Especially as you need very little pressure since there is almost no weight on them.

The thing that causes the bigger problem at speed is pitching due to short wheelbase. And caster suspension doesent help here as it has far too little travel. And its bulky. So means usually wider caster forks too. Short wheelbase is however essensial indoors...

My solution to this on the bm3 wont help that much but nothing can! The seat base tilts under your backside on a single bolt pivot either side under your c of g. The front will mount on two rubber blocks allowing the seat and footplate combination to rock like a ricking chair a few inches. So hit a bump and the base rises suddenly at the front but the seat / footplate assembly catches up more slowly... Same affect as front caster suspension with more travel. And no space or caster weight penalty. This could work for any chair. Should work better. Depending in getting the correct rubber blocks / travel, hardness etc. Pics soon.

[JoeC]

The next step might be to put the front wheels on a ram that pushes them forward several inches when you want to go fast, and pulls them in when you want to turn around inside. See here: http://www.coolmobility.com.au/Projects-wheel.htm

[Martin O Refurbisher]

The interesting part of this, from an engineering point of view, is surely how to adapt sensors and programming to manage the ram position automatically? Any thoughts?

Best,

Martin

[Burgerman]

Simple way... Tap into both motor cables to monitor voltage. Actually pulse width, but net result is voltage after capacitor/ high value resistor. Use this via a 2 resistor divider network to operate a solid state relay. Total of 7 cheap passive components. And one 20 amp solid state relay. It would trigger the relay/ram at say 80 percent pulse width. So at about 1/3rd speed while accelerating. And full speed while traveling. Damped or slowed response by a bigger capacitor on the input to the relay.

Or take a signal from an encoder (an option on the groove motors) and to a similar trick that relates directly to rpm. The latter method is better, but needs an encoder.

[Burgerman]

Simple way... Tap into both motor cables to monitor voltage. Actually pulse width, but net result is voltage after capacitor/ high value resistor. Use this via a 2 resistor divider network to operate a solid state relay. Total of 7 cheap passive components. And one 20 amp solid state relay. It would trigger the relay/ram at say 80 percent pulse width. So at about 1/3rd speed while accelerating. And full speed while traveling. Damped or slowed response by a bigger capacitor on the input to the relay.

Or take a signal from an encoder (an option on the groove motors) and to a similar trick that relates directly to rpm. The latter method is better, but needs an encoder.

[Martin O Refurbisher]

BM
That's simple and elegant. I like it.

Thanks,

Best,

Martin

[Burgerman]

It would extend earlier under load like sand or hill or ramp, and later on the flat or downhill though... Not sure if that would matter much. I think groove motors with added speed sensor option would be a better setup. Only speed related. Not Load.

For what it6s worth the roboteq would allow a digital output signal that is speed related automatically. That could switch the same solid state relay.

[JoeC]

Is that really a lot better than just having a switch or button to make your chair get longer?

[Martin O Refurbisher]

JoeC
Not always better, but certainly an alternative, leaving the user one less thing to worry about!

Best,

Martin

[Lord Chatterley]

There are number of things about the F55 that are good.

It is quite robust and almost well-built. Unlike other chairs.
It is reliable.
It is compact - or very easy to make compact.
Offers a wide range of seating options.
Has the largest front wheels of any similar type of chair - I know 2 people who have been thrown of of very expensive high end chairs with mid-wheels due to small front casters "digging in."
Or worse-
http://www.youtube.com/user/TPSWpresents#p/a/u/0/NtqNuzr4dms

Most of all - BM has done all the work for us.

LC

[Burgerman]

I wouldnt like to do that in my own chair... I could if my life depended on it, wheelie, and crash the rear tyres up but its about 5 or 6 inches! That chair is programmed like a jelly, no control or torque, and as nose heavy as hell...

But thats how all stock rear drive chairs are.

[Martin O Refurbisher]

LC
They claim that the London Underground has accessible stations - rubbish! The stations specified, like Westminster, are accessible, until you get to the platform and want to board a train - same problem as illustrated!

Best,

Martin

[Martin O Refurbisher]

LC lists several good points of the F55: I would add one more - it is much easier to modify to meet your needs than is any other chair I know of.

I use several different chairs a week. Give me the F55 anytime!

Best,

Martin

[ex-Gooserider]

Looking at that video again, seems like bad design on the platform or possibly a lack of good planning on the part of the train design people...

Here in a suburb of Boston MA, US, I don't seem to encounter the same problems with our mass transit. I have occasional need to use both our "Commuter Rail" and subway systems, and none compare to the video, though I have had a little problem because of the midwheel design on my Jazzy.

On the commuter rail, which is a diesel powered train system, all the minor stations have a raised platform for at least some of the cars, with a ramp to access it. The major stations have full length raised platforms. There is usually a significant height and / or space gap between the platform and the cars, but the cars and platforms all have aluminum loading plates that the conductor will put down to bridge the gap. I've only had a few times when I had trouble with the plate because of the Jazzy design, but they have always managed to get me on. Only special issue is that if you are getting on at a major station they will want to know where you are getting off so that they can put you on the proper car that will line up with the raised platform at the destination. Fares are supposed to be 50% off, but they almost never actually charge me in practice.

The subway is easier on the lines that I've used (there are several different lines, each with it's own kind of train) The trolley style lines have fold out ramps on the cars, and the subway style cars all seem to be very good about having a tight fit between the car and platform - I've used them with both the Jazzy and the manual chair and had no problems with either. Only real issue is that they don't have a good place to park the chair other than in the space in front of the doors, so you have to wiggle around a bit to let folks get around you.

Buses are also not bad, all have kneeling systems and fold out ramps, as well as a few spaces with fold up seats and tiedown systems - only thing I find a bit annoying is that they insist on tying you down, and I regret the delays in their schedules that this must cause for other people...

In addition, there is also a Paratransit system with small accessible buses, that does door to door service with advance notice... Trouble is I live one town outside their service area, so the only time I can use "The Ride" is if I take the train into the city first...

Gooserider

[Goibot]

The Ibot would handle that with ease.

[Burgerman]

But sadly they dont handle daily use on the streets or indoors very well at all. iBots were good at tricks, but horrible as full time wheelchairs. I did some evaluation stuff for David Coates of Independence Tevchnology Europe, before the launch of the 3000, and again for the 4000. But used my own powerchairs to get to the pub at night because it was faster, smoother, easier, and more usable.

[Goibot]

But sadly they dont handle daily use on the streets or indoors very well at all. iBots were good at tricks, but horrible as full time wheelchairs. I did some evaluation stuff for David Coates of Independence Tevchnology Europe, before the launch of the 3000, and again for the 4000. But used my own powerchairs to get to the pub at night because it was faster, smoother, easier, and more usable.

I have been using a 4000 full time since released. I read your review years ago and agreed with most of your input. It does have problems indoors and is not the most comfortable chair around, the batteries are a big issue as well. But it's ability to go into 4 wheel drive is what sold me on it. I hate getting stuck.

I want to thank you for your web site and forums. A lot of good info here. I am starting my search for my next chair since the Ibot will no longer be supported in 2013. I need one that will let me reach things and get around outside.

Thanks again for your knowledge and web site.
Tracy

[Burgerman]

I thought it was already unsupported?

Personally I would just keep using it if it suits you, but carry on without official support.

To begin with you MUST get hold of the real programming tools. The biggest problem it has is abysmal drivability and steering delays and accelerations like all chairs. This is even more important than usual with the iBot as it has so many phone home, contact support, shutdown issues... Once thats obtained, theres nothing you cannot fabricate or improve on the iBot. Batteries for a start. It NEEDS better batteries, the ones it uses are not capable of a decent days use when new. And cost a fortune. I would have replaced those with lithium from day 1. And now there are even better and cheaper lithiums available.

Tyres, another weak point, easy to sort out. C of G and subsequent wheelbase making it ride like a really long thing with a ton of weight on tiny casters is the next issue to fix.

Etc etc.

I - you - could turn it into the chair it could have been from day 1 with about a years part time work.

[Burgerman]

But it's ability to go into 4 wheel drive is what sold me on it. I hate getting stuck.

There are other ways. I challenge you to keep up on the beach near my home, with my latest chair once finished

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM-MK3- ... rchair.htm

[Goibot]

Mr. Burgerman, thanks for the advice. Under other circumstances that is exactly what I would be doing. However, I am a disabled vet and the chair was purchased by the VA. I will have to return it to them when Independence stopps all support for it. So for now I am on the hunt

[Burgerman]

They go for very little on ebay... I could have bought one for 500 uk pounds a few weeks ago.