Has anyone tested a Quickie Jive

[Maharishi]

Has anyone tried the new Jive, especially a mid-wheel one. I've told it will take 8 weeks just to get a demo and am wondering whether it's worth it.

Thanks, Darren.

[Burgerman]

Not me, but it looks like a cheapish chair with slightly small batteries and a budget controller. I would avoid the 8mph one unless you are a ballerina, or dont expect much in the way of torque or range. Esp with the 60Ah batteries. Mid drive is pretty horrible outdoors, with small casters etc. Better suited to indoors and shopping centres usually.

This http://www.easymobility.co.uk/quickie-jive/index.php says otherwise, but it all depends what you are used to. And remember they are selling it so a good review helps a lot...

Test it.

[Maharishi]

Wow, that was quick. Thanks for replying.

They are hyping it as a good all-terrain chair due to something they call 'spidertrac' suspension.

A video is available here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szEKOOywbcQ

Other than that I had been considering the Alber Adventure until I read about them here.

I'd be really grateful to hear about any other options that are out there but I have a budget of about £8,000 tops and it needs to be usable indoors without gouging holes in my house.

Cheers

Darren.

[Burgerman]

Take a look at the V6 / X5 powerchair, its better on uneven stuff than any other mid drive chair, works on sand/snow etc like mine. But its a few inches wider, some 6 inches longer, and a couple higher. May not work in your house very well.

[Lord Chatterley]

Tiny front wheels are no good for me - I have hit so many gaps, pot-holes, gutters, drains - they are far too dangerous.

LC

[butchec]

Hi.

We had a demonstration / test drive with the Jive mid wheel yesterday.

The chair is comfortable and offers a good level of ride quality over pavement and grass. The transition from road to path is good for curbs upto 2" as you hardly feel them.

The options for control are upto a R-Net 120amp, 8mph Groove equivalent motors and 70ah Sonnenschein battery's. This offered upto 25miles range, or 20 miles in real life.

The chair was only 63cm with a 18" seat on, this included the arm rest. The overal length was 110cm with a centre foot plate.

The Spider suspension does what it says on the tin, it smooths out the ride and allows for fairly good obstacle transitions.

It will not cope with anything over 3" curbs when driving onto, but will allow upto a 6" drop off without too much discomfort.

It all depends on what you overall want out of the chair. As my partners condition is loose joints and severe pain from any bumps and jolts this one so far has offered the smoothest ride and best comfort for her needs with the least compromises.

There is a variety of options on how to make the seating more comfortable but it coped with everything we could throw at it where my partner would take our children giving her full independence. It coped with loose bark, loose deep big stoned gravel, long ish grass, pavements and mud and twig paths.

As a comparison the chair was equally as happy on country walks, around lakes and at a local park (very similar to the paths pictured where Burgerman takes his dog), as it is on tarmaced roads and pavements.

Cheers. Chris

[Teamonkey50]

Yes I have tested the quickie Jive from Recare In Woodstock. Its an amazing chair & able to do climb kerbs up to 3 inches & though I've only gone down a 4 inch kerb ( with perfect ease, stability & comfort) ive heard it will do more. I tested the Midwheel drive version as all the other rear & even front wheel drives chairs from various other manufacturers either had difficulty negotiating our small council house or fishtailed outdoors on uneven awful pavements. ( tree roots growing through) The quickie Jive M had no such problems with potholes, kerbs & took to really uneven ground like it was flat. ( extremy comfortable & stable)The spidertrac suspension is THAT GOOD. Very manooeverable. Watch the videos of the chair on YouTube as it tackes wet grass & pebble driveways with ease. Plus uneven cobblestone steep hills. If you want an all round chair then personally I think it's perfect. Obviously it not going to be as good outside as an Alber Adventurer but then an Alba wouldn't fit though most people's front doors. Everyone has their own opinion, but I say don't dismiss the Jive M because it has small wheels, test it first & give it a fair try,Then make your mind up.
Chairs Tested:
Spectra XTR R
Storm 4 R
Beetle F
Salsa M
Salsa R
Jive M (winner in my opinion)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqEch9YB ... ata_player

http://www.easymobility.co.uk/quickie-jive/ ( test)

[geordie graham]

Having had a test drive on a Frontier V6 on rough muddy ground I can say that it is a very good comfortable outdoor chair.

[Teamonkey50]

Having had a test drive on a Frontier V6 on rough muddy ground I can say that it is a very good comfortable outdoor chair.

Is it as manoeuverable inside in confined spaces too? Which I think was one one the requirements

[Burgerman]

I agree its good outdoors. Indoors its too high, long, and wide for me.

[Teamonkey50]

I agree its good outdoors. Indoors its too high, long, and wide for me.

It does sound like you should give the Jive M a trial. Ive had mine for two days ( bought fron recare in woodstock) over Extremly rough ground & the spidertrac suspension is amazing. Very comfortable & stable & so manoeverable in confined spaces ( better with 90 degree footrests, which I need) 17" width seat stardard cushions backrest & headrest ( standard 15inch armrests) RNet LCD controller & motor controller & raise/tilt mechanism. 60amp batteries. Which is perfect as I'm not planning on going 20miles on it a day. Though distance depends on hills rough ground etc. the manufacture quoted more but they only give mileage based on flat ideal conditions so it's always best to knock at least 30%

[Burgerman]

Not sure about the battery compartment size, but it uses small batteries, and has a budget VR2 controller (low amps) etc. And if you take it on the beach/snow/mud it will sink...

R-net is available, as you have, as an option but not sure the motors are capable of taking advantage of the extra amps. If they were then its a bit daft using them on the VR2 model. Could be wrong here. But mid drive chairs upset me anyway! Its a triumph of extra casters, marketing, and dubious engineering over physics. But everyone is different!.

[Teamonkey50]

Not sure about the battery compartment size, but it uses small batteries, and has a budget VR2 controller (low amps) etc. And if you take it on the beach/snow/mud it will sink...

R-net is available, as you have, as an option but not sure the motors are capable of taking advantage of the extra amps. If they were then its a bit daft using them on the VR2 model. Could be wrong here. But mid drive chairs upset me anyway! Its a triumph of extra casters, marketing, and dubious engineering over physics. But everyone is different!.

Yes I agree it has small batteries but I'd like to use it on the buses, itch can fit 70amp batteries but at this moment I don't need them. The chair has 4pole motors & seems to work well with my Rnet controller. I've gone up very steep slopes/hills, over very wet long & short grass & over gravel with no sign of the chair struggling to cope at all. I don't think I'd like to go on the beach, snow though it's supposed to cope with mud though I'd rather not tempt fate as I think I'd only use/hire specialist chairs for that. I think everybody has their own ideal chair but I've found this is the one best suited for my needs in my area & the places I'd like to visit I'm the uk. It's versatile and great indoors & outdoors. I think to achieve the perfect ideal you would need two chairs or more for different terrain scenarios. Personally I think it's a case of Trial it and see as you say everyone is different. Maybe they will come up with a lightweight long distance all terrain chair that also manoeverable in confined spaces. It's definately worth a trial I absolutely love Mine though

[Burgerman]

Maybe they will come up with a lightweight long distance all terrain chair that also manoeverable in confined spaces. It's definately worth a trial I absolutely love Mine though

All terrain, will never be realistic without the move to lithium batteries, and probably higher voltages. Its just not practical with lead, they are too heavy and dont store much power.

Again with indoor ability, lithium is the answer here too, since you can build a smaller chair because the battery can be smaller. And the extra spave not used for huge lead batteries allows for fat low pressure tyres that dont sink, and that grip well on sand/mud/snow, without making the chair bigger.

But the powerchair manufacturers dont think like this. They have a motor expert, a battery expert, a seating expert, a controller expert or use one of the big established ones, etc. None of who see or "get" the whole thing. So instead of smaller lighter more capable powerchairs with fat tyres, expect to see lead brick replacements of similar size and capacity, and running at 24v. Because thats the easy thing to do. But they then failed to take advantage of the lithium capability almost completely. They will eventually use lithium for some minor advantages but still not really "get it"...

[Teamonkey50]

Yes lithium ion would be the totally logical & sensible way to go. It's crazy they don't already use the technology given the price of the mid to high end power chairs. The batteries would be so much lighter with better endurance & range. It does seem like a powerchair is built by committee. They should employ disabled technical engineers who actually know what's needed rather than the non disabled who they think what's best for us. They get some things right & some good design innovations but dally drastically short on others. I'm not Being prejudiced against able bodied people but unless they have spent significant time in powerchairs then they can only assume as to what's needed. Sorry to get on my high horse lol but having been in a wheelchair for over 15 years gets me a little fraustrated. Though as to fat air filled tyres there's so much glass, nails & sharp objects around my area I've opted for solid tyres

[Burgerman]

But thats the point.

I use tubeless (20x less likely to deflate - michelin) and they are kevlar reinforced too, called keratek, against punctures. AND large quantity of off road/industrial OKO sealant! Just in case. (others are simply not this good. Watch the video. Even if you remove the valve core, or drill a hole, they dont deflate. Theres no need for harsh riding short lived solid / foam filled mobility tyres.

The off road puncture seal in off road style low pressure tubeless tyres is amazingly good even without the kevlar. I spent ages at a stand once at a bike show at the NEC, drilling holes and stabbing a tyre with a metal spike in a tyre on display, trying to deflate it. No luck! It was still inflated at the end of the show days later.

The off road / industrial OKO that is shown here, is much better than the stuff put in road cars.

Watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayrultGyxig

In TUBELESS tyres this stuff really is this good. I have tested it myself (In tubes, it may help a bit)

But also these tyres run at very low pressure, and cover a large area. Like a human laid on a bed of nails, no punctures. They exert a low pressure on the ground, They easily ride over glass etc. I can drive over anything and really not worry, but get a better ride, and can drive on soft stuff like sand.

[Teamonkey50]

Oko looks very impressive, I think when it comes to change tyres I will try to go for the tubeless. Thanks so much for all the information, I really appreciate it. Would a quickie jive M battery compartment be adaptable to fit the equivalent in lithium ion batteries plus I'd need a new charger

[Burgerman]

The thing with lithiums is you can make them many shapes or sizes, so yes.

[Burgerman]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TYRE-SEAL-Sea ... 56365c9ad2

THIS is the same off road / industrial stuff. There seems to be no difference. But dont use it in your car. They make a thinner one for that. Or you get balance issues.

Will seal a 10mm hole. No I didnt believe that either. But I have seen it do it. At least on low pressure tyres.

[Maharishi]

Have just got back from holiday and would like to offer belated thanks to the other people who replied to my post. Looks like Quickie will have a hit on their hands as I was quoted 8 weeks for a demo! Will keep looking at other options whilst I wait.

[Teamonkey50]

The thing with lithiums is you can make them many shapes or sizes, so yes.

That's excellent news thanks. Could you give me some idea of the cost involved & where to purchase them please.

[Burgerman]

That depends on cell type, bms used if any, charging solutions, capacity required etc.

With lithiums the best way to do things costs. The easy way, is simple and cheap, but often results in no real gain over lead, and shortened battery life.

See www.evassemble.com for eg. Look at high rate cells like the 10, 12, 15Ah lithium cells as I use in my own chair here: http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM-MK3- ... rchair.htm

[Teamonkey50]

That depends on cell type, bms used if any, charging solutions, capacity required etc.

With lithiums the best way to do things costs. The easy way, is simple and cheap, but often results in no real gain over lead, and shortened battery life.

See http://www.evassemble.com for eg. Look at high rate cells like the 10, 12, 15Ah lithium cells as I use in my own chair here: http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM-MK3- ... rchair.htm

Thanks very much I will look into that

[Burgerman]

Listens???

Can hear the tin opener opening that can.

[Teamonkey50]

Listens???

Can hear the tin opener opening that can.

Is that a very large can of worms by any chance? Should I wait till my warranty expires first. I'd have to save up the money anyway so it's not an immediate thing. But doesn't hurt to be prepared. Looked at the beatiful way you design & build your chairs with quality components & precision work plus still manage it for a substantially lower cost than other so called high performance chairs with inflated price tags & not built to the same exacting build quality as yours. It seem when they manufacture powerchairs they forget build quality. And add a huge markup on disabled products. Will it ever change do you think?

[Burgerman]

Not as long as both the goverments and insurance that pays for them keeps shelling out. And not until theres some sensible and well engineered competition from say the chinese...

They get their money way too easily, and so keep knocking out the same old year after year with practically no nod to the last decade or so in sight.

Tubes?
Lead batteries?
Iron frames with millions of add on brackets and steel bolts?
Non user programmable, weedy, expensive controllers?
Skinny tyres?
Only the frame gets decent paint?
Thin wiring, slow low powered chargers, rust prone bearings, crap suspension, wtc etc.

Why would they bother to use better materials like are used in every hobby, race car, or even manual push chairs, or say brushless motors, when even the majority of users dont much care...

[Teamonkey50]

Hi sorry for late reply as my condition left me a bit out of it. It does seem like manufacturers aren't going to bother to put quality components on powerchairs any time soon so it will up to us to replace the worn parts with quality replacements. I have a 6mph chair but wanted to go to 8.5 but an extra £1000 from the 6mph one seemed very excessive.

[Burgerman]

It is. But in reality, you need better more powerful motors, more powerful controller, all by 25 percent. This means you also need 25 percent better (bigger heavier) batteries that do not fit in the space, to make this work as well as a 6mph chair. Or range and torque (one or the other or both) will suffer.

[Teamonkey50]

It is. But in reality, you need better more powerful motors, more powerful controller, all by 25 percent. This means you also need 25 percent better (bigger heavier) batteries that do not fit in the space, to make this work as well as a 6mph chair. Or range and torque (one or the other or both) will suffer.

I have an Rnet 120 with LCD controller i didn't realise there were better controllers as wasn't given that much of a choice. I take it then that the quickie Jive motors aren't as good as advertised? I'm disappointed with the 60amp batteries as only getting 10.4miles per full charge which is ridiculous I was hoping for at least twice that

[Burgerman]

Range and what you actually achieve is a consequence of a mass of things.

in no order of importance.

1. User weight. A 25 stone adult takes 5 TIMES the energy to move around compared to a 5 stone balerina. So one may get 25 miles the other 5. Or less due to:

2. Battery size in Ah (SIZE of fuel tank) 60Ah may sound nearly as big as 75Ah but theres another affect here. Peukert. This law says that as you increase the discharge rate, you get proportionally less usable Ah from the battery. With same chair, smaller batteries, you have increased the Amp draw per Ah... So get less out than the simple figures tell you. Increased Peukert also caused heavier user weight, taller gearing (faster chairs), low pressure tyres, hills, ramps, heavy currents while turning, etc.

3. Speed. In real terms, a 4mph chair should go 2x as far as a 8mph powerchair if everything else remains the same. Even if you go at 4mph or slower.

4. USE. It can take 100 Amps to turn around or move around your house or garden. Thats a huge load on the batteries. So if you spend an hour at home before you go out you may start with 50 percent used up batteries and have been nowhere! (zero miles) before you start to measure. Likewise on a FLAT surface, in straight lines, you may take 10Amps at full speed. On a sloping pavement, or the edge of a road this increases dramatically. So now it may be 30 amps and you are going slower. Front heavy chairs are worse here, and mid drives better here. Likewise hills. Even slight ones, eat up amps fast. You use less going down again, but not much less (some amps are used even parked up!) and less is saved going slower or at part throttle. Regeneration is highly inneficient on steep hills.

5. motor efficiency, this doesent make much difference at high loads (most are similar unless brushless) but can have some minor affect running at full speed on the completely flat surfaces.

6. Batteries age. They are at their best when new plus say 2 weeks. From here on, they deteriorate. After around 300 cycles, if charged CORRECTLY in a lab, you will be down to around 80 percent of the original range. Or less since peukert also increases as they age. As does internal resistance.

7. Heavily used motors also lose efficiency with age, as the magnets become demagnetised slightly due to heavy currents, and temperature. So this too means more heat and less range.

So a fat bloke, in an 8mph chair, living in the hills, with a big garden, thick carpets smaller batteries can realistically get 5 miles or less.
A slinny 13 year old balerina with a 4mph chair, group 24 batteries, living in a small house, with open flat smooth shopping centres, wide flat big city pavements may get 30 miles.


See old page here, but still relevant. http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/powerchair-range.htm

Of course high efficiency brushless motors, lithium batteries can quadruple this. But they wont give us them Its a case of DIY...
So with all these variables predicting range is impossible from one day to the next even on the same chair.