Chairs for heavy city use

[kiowascoutdc]

Thank you Burgerman and other posters. It is difficult to pick a chair sight unseen. As a lifelong chair user, I do try to be an educated consumer. However, there are limited venues to actually see the options with your own eyes. I must rely on the internet, past experience and god reviews.

I must say, that this forum provides the best information that I have come across regarding power chair comparisons. If I could afford to purchase and repair without insurance benefits, I would get one custom made.

I dislike Quickie's Qtronics. I like Quickie's frames and speed. I dislike Invacare's wheels. I liked Invacare's seating and manueverability. I dislike Stealth's joystick mounts.

So, we all have to prioritize and compromise.

That said, finding a chair that fits a busy lifestyle and public transportation is not easy. I live in the metro Washington, DC area. I drive my chair on city streets, subways, busses, and taxis. I must manuever bad curbcuts, steep hills, tight doorways, small elevators, fast moving foot and street traffic. The Concrete Jungle requires speed, agility, power, and range.

It has come down to 3 finalists for me: Quickie Jive R, Quickie S636, or Permobil C350.

I welcome any and all tips, concerns and comments. THANK YOU, AGAIN, for this great forum!

[ex-Gooserider]

As far as I know, the Quickie Qtronics is just a private rebadge of the Penny & Giles (P&G) Pilot + controller and joystick pod. I know that I've swapped a P&G pod for a Qtronics pod, and it's both a straight plug-in swap, and no difference in the chair handling.

Also I think that you can order other controller brands / models with the chair (presumably at an extra cost, but....)

I actually like my Qtronics pod that came from a used 626 better than the Pilot + pod on my Redman rebuild chair. I might go on eBay and see if I can find another pod like my Qtronics one but with the extra light switches that the Redman pod has....

The big difference is that the Qtronics has a combined power and mode toggle switch, along with a discrete speed pot. You can also set different "profiles" for different environments, or a "gutless" mode for anyone else needing to move the chair... The Pilot + pod doesn't have a speed pot, and all the switches are flimsy push-buttons on the panel - you have to switch modes to change the speed setting, and it doesn't have profiles...

ex-Gooserider

[Step]

I think all 3 models come in RWD, have 120Amp R-net controllers (standard or option), 72Ah batteries (standard or option), good size wheels for city use, 10km/h or 12km/h speeds, ...
All recurring things on the forum here regarded as 'good to have'.
The Jive and the Permobil have central footrest (Option on the Jive).

The Quickies both allow for some simple DIY modifications like modifying the entre of gravity which improves manouvrability quite a bit.
Permobil is difficult to change.

I'd go for the Quickie Jive because of the 120Amp R-net controller and the central footrest option.
If you cut a footplate to the size of your shoes and move the c of g backwards a bit (careful with tipping on steep curbcuts) you can keep the chair almost as short and manouvrable as a manual chair.
And you can go places

Good luck

[kiowascoutdc]

Thank you for these comments.

I prefer RWD myself. I need to manuever in tight quarters, including air travel. MWD is too long and wide for my situation. My legs are much shorter and lighter than my trunk. So, nose heavy is helpful for me. I need small, compact, and I reduce length by not having any footrests at all.

The one thing that worries me about the Jive is the newness of the model. I always worry that the 'glitches' haven't been worked out yet.

Another note about air travel. I have to travel about 4 to 5 times a year for work. That is always tough on my chairs. Baggage handlers are often rough as they lift and pack the chair. Baggage storage on smaller planes can be challenging for the backrest. Any comments about these chairs and how each holds up against the rigors of air travel?

[Burgerman]

The one thing that worries me about the Jive is the newness of the model. I always worry that the 'glitches' haven't been worked out yet.

Its a Groove, with Groove motors, wheels, casters, R-net controls. By a different name. Most of the parts are the same. That just leaves a slightly different chassis and seat. Nothing to worry about.

[Step]

Agreed.
The Permobil got some bad reports on wobbly or flimsy flip-up armrests if I remember well.
And they are quite strict on settings like driving with the chair tilted.
I tilt the chair to handle steep curbcuts or ramps going down and apparently the Permobil goes into turtle mode quite fast.

Can you get testdrives?

[motoman]

Agreed.
The Permobil got some bad reports on wobbly or flimsy flip-up armrests if I remember well.
And they are quite strict on settings like driving with the chair tilted.
I tilt the chair to handle steep curbcuts or ramps going down and apparently the Permobil goes into turtle mode quite fast.

Can you get testdrives?

Just an FYI...on my new Permobil I can blast along full speed with the thing tilted back all the way if I want. I only have tilt and no other functions so that may make a difference but apparently it can be adjusted. Also, the armrests on their 3G seating did concern me, until I really hammered the crap out of the demo model. I'm 6'3" 230 and I laid my carcass on them many times and they held firm. That was with the 13" rests. However, I just got this chair about 5 months ago so we'll see what the future brings.

[Step]

Thanks Motoman!
I only test-drove it so it's good to have some long-term usage info.
did you do any customizations to it?

Permobil c350 was the n°1 chair here (Belgium) 2 years ago when I was looking at a new chair.
It's place is now being taken by the Quickie Jive but they're pushing the MWD quite hard.

I'm going to the rehab fair here tomorrow.
Hope to see some new interresting stuff... one can always hope eh

[Russell]

I had a Permobil 350 RWD and My thoughts are.... It was a little longer and wider than other chairs.It would only just fit in my lift lengthways and it made it harder for apartment living with tight corners. Also found the suspension a little hard. If you have a dealer nearby try an Otto Bock B600. I like this better than the Quickies P222 and 646. I had some trouble with it cutting out but it was a faulty control,fixed now and the Otto rep was fantastic. Russell

[kiowascoutdc]

BUMMER! Quickie sells the Jive only in Europe. The PT at the vendor talked to me about the Frontier V6 RWD. It has similar dimensions to my current Invacare Arrow. Only drawback that I can see is its lack of speed. 6.5 mph is low for me.

Any thoughts or comments about this model or about Frontier?

[Burgerman]

Its the only chair I would consider if I didn't build my own. Build quality of base is good, has drive axle failure issues, and as you say 6.5mph.

I would fit Lithium headway pack, Roboteq, 45volts and get 11.5mph from it. And much more range. But that's not plug and play gear.

[rollingcowboy]

isn't the Frontier 28" wide?

[Burgerman]

Yep. Its a little bit too wide, but a LOT too long though. It is too big for sensible use in a van or easy use in my house compared to my own chairs. Seat height higher as well. But its better off road (you don't fall out the rear) but no wheelies or good control. Life's a compromise!

[kiowascoutdc]

They have several different models. Most are for outside use. But, the V6 has 7 different configurations. The RWD configuration begins with a width of 23.6" and a length of 32". It has a Dynamic DX2 joystick, uses Group 24 batteries with an option for 73 amps. Knobby tires are optional and increase the width to 28". I won't be using knobby tires.

Any thoughts on the joystick?

[rollingcowboy]

I have never seen a rwd frontier - do they appear to be as rugged as the mid drive? (except for the axles)

[Burgerman]

>>> I won't be using knobby tires.

Why?
That tyre SIZE (not tread pattern) and its low pressure, large soft sidewall, is what gives the smoother ride, better floatation, and the soft ground capability. Its the whole point of the X5/V6. It was designed narrow enough across the motors to allow these tyres. Without that you may as well choose almost any other chair. So nothing gained.

[kiowascoutdc]

Knobby tires increase the width to 28". My current chair is 24" and is still just narrow enough for my bedroom door and the elevators in the Congressional buildings and the Capitol building. Compact is important for my use.

[Burgerman]

The width of a chair is best determined by your own width. Seated. No chair should be wider than its occupant unless its outdoor only and you are capable of walking some or transferring alone. Or it hinders your indoor mobility. LENGTH and "corners" like swing away footrests for eg, are the next thing on the list that ruin indoor capability. Since they prevent you turning into a narrow doorway or around in a small space. So it should be "oval" looking from above.

Normally because of batteries being crap (lead) the best way to design a chair is to use the biggest batteries that you can design a chair around, as they are the weakest point of all electric vehicles so its very important. Batteries are not an afterthought but a starting point. As long as the chair ends up no wider than the user. So tyre/motor/battery,sizes becomes the important figures. If it ends up narrower than the user you find a chair that uses bigger batteries, or fatter tyres, as both are desirable. If its wider than the user do the opposite.

My own chair is MY width seated. 25.3 inches in this case. With a foot of rubber, and full sized group 24 batteries. But this took some serious engineering and rethinking of powerchair design. Shame the manufacturers have not figured it out. X5/V6 comes closest, but as you say too wide and a foot too long.

[Frog]

I dislike Quickie's Qtronics. I like Quickie's frames and speed. I dislike Invacare's wheels. I liked Invacare's seating and manueverability. I dislike Stealth's joystick mounts.

So, we all have to prioritize and compromise.

That said, finding a chair that fits a busy lifestyle and public transportation is not easy. I live in the metro Washington, DC area. I drive my chair on city streets, subways, busses, and taxis. I must manuever bad curbcuts, steep hills, tight doorways, small elevators, fast moving foot and street traffic. The Concrete Jungle requires speed, agility, power, and range.

Quickie Jive R, Quickie S636, or Permobil C350.

I welcome any and all tips, concerns and comments.

You're probably used to a rear wheel drive chair, but having the drive wheels at the front and under the seat, and the castors in line with the backrest seems a little more compact in terms of flying ability etc. Driving your chair on taxis sounds like a lot of fun - I didn't realise the sheet metal roof was so strong! I'm confused as to why you like the Invacare chair seating - for me, the Permobil Corpus 3G seating system was so comfortable in the mesh version (pain is a big issue for me) that I stopped looking after trialling a M300. I then picked up the C500 as an interim chair from eBay - perhaps buy a 2nd hand chair off eBay to fly with - for $2k instead of $20k it seems like a good bargain - you can always switch your cushions across (assuming help/support). Burgerman says no chair should be wider than it's occupant, and I half-agree - but armrests should be a bit wider if you have upper body strength as they should displace forces both laterally and through the vertical plane. That's one reason I like the permobil chair. Do you have the largest battery option on the chairs? The C500 is 25.75" with normal tyres and the C350 is 24.5", so not much difference anywhere but getting through a narrow doorway imo - as neither chair will do it once hinges are taken into account. Again, your experience may differ! I do agree with Burgerman on designing a chair around batteries (somewhat), the placement on the higher-end Permobil chairs is certainly well thought out and optimal, even if some would prefer a scissor lift. Permobil's thinking that a sharp lateral force will break a scissor lift much more easily is certainly true when it is under pressure, but partly marketing. The 'not getting the chair stuck up' thing, I do like. Again, YMMV.

Agreed.
The Permobil got some bad reports on wobbly or flimsy flip-up armrests if I remember well.
And they are quite strict on settings like driving with the chair tilted.
I tilt the chair to handle steep curbcuts or ramps going down and apparently the Permobil goes into turtle mode quite fast.

I currently have a C500, so it may not be a like for like comparison. However, the chair doesn't go into turtle mode unless programmed to do so. This is as a result (in the newer chairs) of programming of the 'turtle mode' being set against a combined 'backrest angle', which has both 'hard' and 'soft' settings. If you have a friendly dealer, this can be reprogrammed - otherwise you need a programming interface and a PC - difficult. Having said that, this may not be relevant to you.

The armrests on my chair are FAR from flimsy - absolutely solid, however, the two hex bolts that lock each armrest onto the support structure need to be properly tightened when built and after - I'm lucky to still have the use of my arms, so tighten regularly.

Just an FYI...on my new Permobil I can blast along full speed with the thing tilted back all the way if I want. I only have tilt and no other functions so that may make a difference but apparently it can be adjusted. Also, the armrests on their 3G seating did concern me, until I really hammered the crap out of the demo model. I'm 6'3" 230 and I laid my carcass on them many times and they held firm. That was with the 13" rests. However, I just got this chair about 5 months ago so we'll see what the future brings.

I'm 6'4" and maybe 195lbs, and I've struggled to get the 14" or 16" to budge. It is worth noting you can change the swing-away angle to suit yourself, however approximately 90 degrees to the down position is easiest. I know the bigger Permobil can be pushed to do 14kph if reconfigured using the R-Net programming tools from P&G - obviously this hurts battery life and requires a totally compliant dealer.

I prefer RWD myself. I need to manuever in tight quarters, including air travel.[...]So, nose heavy is helpful for me. I need small, compact, and I reduce length by not having any footrests at all.

Another note about air travel. I have to travel about 4 to 5 times a year for work. That is always tough on my chairs. Baggage handlers are often rough as they lift and pack the chair. Baggage storage on smaller planes can be challenging for the backrest. Any comments about these chairs and how each holds up against the rigors of air travel?

My C500 (actually a Corpus 500) was owned by forum member <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Bagshaw">mbagshaw</a> before I bought it after being used for 6 years for a job which included a mixture of domestic and international travel. I know for a fact that the chair has been to countries on every continent except Antarctica and South America, and on a regular basis. It copes well with all terrain whenever it doesn't ground out - I take it to church on a Sunday night for a 5km round trip and can do the same again the next day on older batteries, while usually still having a half-charge left. However, can you take the charger with you or buy a second one? It seems that leaving a charger at your workplace might be a better solution to charger problems than any range things. The Permobil chairs have a backrest which is quick release - if you can reach it. Two triangle-shaped (ish) screws release and then the backrest lifts out - you can put it in an overhead compartment (you'll get priority on most airlines) and then the base will fit in the hold. The C500's two batteries under the driving position and front wheel drive really benefit stability in a reclined drive position, and I'd recommend this over the C350 just because it has slightly more range and the most rugged, 'outdoor' build of any indoor/outdoor Permobil chair. Sure - you will wait for the odd extra lift when it doesn't 'quite' fit with 6 other people, but ride comfort and speed are worth it imo - your mileage may vary! The base has apparently gone in the hold over 100 times though, and has just lost a few reflectors and added a scar to the plastic on one side, where the yellow stripes have smeared a little. No chassis damage at all.

However, have realistic expectations flying - you're cattle just like everyone else and will probably be transferred in a narrow aisle chair if you're not flying Southwestern (or business, or a large plane). There are some exceptions though, but at least you can take your chair to the plane and watch them take the base away. Take the cushion onto the plane, of course.

Lastly - air travel isn't as easy with the Magic Mobility chairs from what I've heard. Their standard rehab seating is a bit iffy compared to the firm leather or the supportive mesh of the Corpus 3G - again, YMMV. Does price come into it?

[ex-Gooserider]

Something I'd think about building if I had to do a lot of air travel or other where I had to be separated from the chair, is an electronic "tip & tell" equivalent... A recorder that would log any excessive bumps and shocks, turning upside down, sideways, or other abuses of that sort...

It wouldn't be all that difficult, expensive or bulky - I'm thinking an Arduino with a real-time clock module, an SD-card / datalogger, and one of the low cost 3-axis accelerometer units. I think there are shields that have those functions (might have to stack a couple) Could be powered off a flashlight battery pack, so comply with regs requiring the main batteries to be disconnected.

Program would just be to record time and details of any shock or other thing that exceeded reasonable threshold.

Tell the carrier that the chair is equpped with same - possibly put a sign on the chair as well - so that they KNOW you will be aware of any abuse and be able to prove it...

ex-Gooserider

[LROBBINS]

Goose,

Check "shock sensors" at McMaster-Carr. There are only two problems with your shock sensor idea: more complex than needed, and the airlines will surely say it's an unverified, and hence to-be-ignored, device.

There are a number of simple, mechanical sensors that, some quite cheap stick on labels for packages. Because they are commercial products with a history, if you ever had to contest an airlines actions they'd probably be taken at face value.

Never thought of this before, but I think I should order some and have them handy for our next trip.

Ciao,
Lenny

[Sully]

Quote; "Could be powered off a flashlight battery pack, so comply with regs requiring the main batteries to be disconnected".
I have never been required to do this. I fact I did see the luggage guy riding in my chair while headed back to the planes storage area. And another riding to the arival gate upon getting to my destination, different occasions though.

[ex-Gooserider]

Lenny, My feeling is that the shock monitor is more to "keep them honest" than as a tool to get them to pay for damages - after all, as long as the chair is drivable and not blatantly broken, they can always claim that it was damaged before you gave it to them, and the shock monitor doesn't prove they did it...

I also think a digital version (and possibly one of the labels - which is what I got the idea from) has the advantage that it would report multiple problems, while the mechanical / label devices just record the first / worst problem... For instance when they bounced Rachi's chair down the stairs, a shock label would just record that it was subjected to a shock - but an electronic recorder would give a step by step record, with time stamp.... If it did come down to legal action, I suspect that a demo and the datasheets on what the sensor could pick up would be pretty convincing....

Sully - My recollection of the regs is that the batteries are supposed to be disconnected - whether that is enforced or not is a seperate question... The theory behind it makes sense to me in that they want to make sure there is no way the chair could get turned on and try to drive itself through the side of the plane while in flight... I've also seen a lot of advice that it is best to remove the joystick, along with any other easily detachable parts, and take them with you as carry ons. If you do this the chair isn't drivable anyway. (It is what I did on my one post-injury plane trip, and all I did was show the gate people how to work the free-wheel levers so they could roll the chair...)

ex-Gooserider

[Deane]

Its the only chair I would consider if I didn't build my own. Build quality of base is good, has drive axle failure issues, and as you say 6.5mph.

The drive axle issues were resolved on the V6 and probably the new rearwheel drive V4. They are using different motors than the ones they used on the X5. I've had my V6 for about a year and a half and haven't had any axle issues.

Deane

[LROBBINS]

Goose,

The requirement to disconnect the batteries was removed from the regs a few years ago (though not all baggage personnel know this). It is, however, necessary to securely turn off the chair - disconnecting a controller cable will suffice.

Ciao,
Lenny

[Sully]

Lenny,

I have seen a false 3 prong charger plug, that will disable the power, just don't forget to release the brakes. I just do not have any problem with the handlers riding it. Provided they do not abuse it, what's the harm? The false plug is always there if they will use it held by a string when it is out, and a small tag to explain its use.

[LROBBINS]

Yep Sully, an XLR plug with a wire from "inhibit" to "ground" will immobilize the chair too, but it won't keep any actuators (tilt, lift, recline) from functioning. On Rachi's the Specialty Controls Remote is in a slip in mount, so I want to take it into the plane with us anyway. As it's the master module in her Dynamic DX setup, once it's removed the chair is truly dead in the water. Ciao, Lenny

[Humpinate]

Something I'd think about building if I had to do a lot of air travel or other where I had to be separated from the chair, is an electronic "tip & tell" equivalent... A recorder that would log any excessive bumps and shocks, turning upside down, sideways, or other abuses of that sort...

It wouldn't be all that difficult, expensive or bulky - I'm thinking an Arduino with a real-time clock module, an SD-card / datalogger, and one of the low cost 3-axis accelerometer units.

Ex-Gooserider, where would you mount it ? Would you hide it, like a Lo-Jack ? Or would it be visible, even painted to stand out, like a black box for Wheelchairs ? Thanks.

[ex-Gooserider]

Something I'd think about building if I had to do a lot of air travel or other where I had to be separated from the chair, is an electronic "tip & tell" equivalent... A recorder that would log any excessive bumps and shocks, turning upside down, sideways, or other abuses of that sort...

It wouldn't be all that difficult, expensive or bulky - I'm thinking an Arduino with a real-time clock module, an SD-card / datalogger, and one of the low cost 3-axis accelerometer units.

Ex-Gooserider, where would you mount it ? Would you hide it, like a Lo-Jack ? Or would it be visible, even painted to stand out, like a black box for Wheelchairs ? Thanks.

In the theme of "keep-em-honest" I would probably do a bit of both... I'd make the actual device hard to find / access - say put it on the underside of the seat, or in the battery compartment. The baggage gorrillas aren't going to have a lot of time to look for it, so keeping it out of plain sight is going to discourage tampering or making it "fall off and get lost".

OTOH, I would put a large sign (possibly in multiple languages if doing international travel) on the chair saying something like "This chair equipped with shock monitoring device - improper handling will be recorded"

In some ways the sign is almost more important than the system to the extent that it keeps the handling appropriate - after all the "ideal" situation is that the chair gets to the other end without any damage and no need to go through any complaint procedures because you rolled off the airplane happy and smiling about how well they treated you and your chair.... While having a shock monitor might help the process if you HAVE to complain, it is still going to be a hassle that you don't need.

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

Buy van. Go by road and sea. Safer...

>>> OTOH, I would put a large sign (possibly in multiple languages if doing international travel) on the chair saying something like "This chair equipped with shock monitoring device - improper handling will be recorded"

They will just look around, see no camera, and kick it or snap something off... It will work like the "fragile" stickers do on the mail! Those get thrown the furthest.